DELTA furloughs
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Nomran Stanley Fletcher
BRAVO INDEED!
Perfectly stated, and absolutely correct.
You, Sir, are a breath of fresh air, amid a fart-blizzard of indolence.
[ 06 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
BRAVO INDEED!
Perfectly stated, and absolutely correct.
You, Sir, are a breath of fresh air, amid a fart-blizzard of indolence.
[ 06 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]
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Wouldn't you think that the airline executives would have a right to know how their highly paid employees treat their customers in public (this forum)?? A little copy-paste-send might be a cure for some pilot attitude problems.
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FFPax
You make me puke!
Making threats to run and tell tales as you have done here and on the "SLF" threads lowers my opinion of journalists even more. If people want to express their opinions they should be allowed to do so. After all, without freedom of speech where would your profession (journalism supposedly) be?
Don’t you think airline execs are aware of this site and look in regularly? They don’t need little 5hits like you running around and telling tales.
Get a life.
You make me puke!
Making threats to run and tell tales as you have done here and on the "SLF" threads lowers my opinion of journalists even more. If people want to express their opinions they should be allowed to do so. After all, without freedom of speech where would your profession (journalism supposedly) be?
Don’t you think airline execs are aware of this site and look in regularly? They don’t need little 5hits like you running around and telling tales.
Get a life.
Union Goon
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The problem with your arguements is that the airline business is cyclical.
1-2 years from now this will all be a distant memory and the airlines will be back to making a profit, whether or not the pilots or any other group makes a concession. And if the groups make a concession, will the airlines give it back? History emphatically says no.
Delta is sitting on BILLIONS of dollars, and while they are losing money, the losses are less now than they were last month and revenue continues to slowly improve.
Delta piled up a huge warchestduring the good times of the last 5 years or so while they were accumulating cash under a concessionary contract signed during the last downturn. Wages have barely kept pace with inflation. So they may have to spend some of the cash in the short term. It maybe wiser to do that and keep the employees happy so that they might better serve the public, rather than try and wring concessions out of a work force and **** them off and as a result drive away their pax.
Delta had a program called 7.5 ten years ago. They were going to get their seat mile costs down 7.5 cents per mile, thinking that it was the key to competing with Southwest who has 7.0 cents per mile costs. Well, they did it, they got the seat mile costs down to 7.5 and as a result they LOST THEIR ASSES! The customer service that commanded the large fairs were gutted so revenue dried up.
They very quickly backed off that plan and gave everyone else back what they had taken (except for the pilots who were the only unionized employees with a contract) drove their costs UP, improved their service as a result and made BILLIONS. The pilots just took untill their contract was amendable to get their raises.
Continental had a similar program called "CAL LITE" that just about put the whole company back into bankrupcy a 3rd time. The first thing Gordon Bethune did when he took over was the throw out all the managers that thought like you pilot bashers do!
Southwest is NOT a major's competition and they had forgotten that. Southwest competes with the automobile. Southwest and AA coexist in Texas quite well thank you very much, Southwest isn't interested in feeding people, and AA isn't interested in running a cattle car. When southwest comes into a market, they don't really kill the preexisting airlines as much as they generate more traffic because you can fly Southwest for less than it costs to drive. But not everyone likes flying Southwest.
Wino
1-2 years from now this will all be a distant memory and the airlines will be back to making a profit, whether or not the pilots or any other group makes a concession. And if the groups make a concession, will the airlines give it back? History emphatically says no.
Delta is sitting on BILLIONS of dollars, and while they are losing money, the losses are less now than they were last month and revenue continues to slowly improve.
Delta piled up a huge warchestduring the good times of the last 5 years or so while they were accumulating cash under a concessionary contract signed during the last downturn. Wages have barely kept pace with inflation. So they may have to spend some of the cash in the short term. It maybe wiser to do that and keep the employees happy so that they might better serve the public, rather than try and wring concessions out of a work force and **** them off and as a result drive away their pax.
Delta had a program called 7.5 ten years ago. They were going to get their seat mile costs down 7.5 cents per mile, thinking that it was the key to competing with Southwest who has 7.0 cents per mile costs. Well, they did it, they got the seat mile costs down to 7.5 and as a result they LOST THEIR ASSES! The customer service that commanded the large fairs were gutted so revenue dried up.
They very quickly backed off that plan and gave everyone else back what they had taken (except for the pilots who were the only unionized employees with a contract) drove their costs UP, improved their service as a result and made BILLIONS. The pilots just took untill their contract was amendable to get their raises.
Continental had a similar program called "CAL LITE" that just about put the whole company back into bankrupcy a 3rd time. The first thing Gordon Bethune did when he took over was the throw out all the managers that thought like you pilot bashers do!
Southwest is NOT a major's competition and they had forgotten that. Southwest competes with the automobile. Southwest and AA coexist in Texas quite well thank you very much, Southwest isn't interested in feeding people, and AA isn't interested in running a cattle car. When southwest comes into a market, they don't really kill the preexisting airlines as much as they generate more traffic because you can fly Southwest for less than it costs to drive. But not everyone likes flying Southwest.
Wino
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To my DEAR Friends Norman Stanley Fletcher and FFPAX,
First NSF: You actually seem to be very knowledgeable person with an opinion I actually respect, but I believe you are flawed when it comes to Delta. Admit it, you
really don't know what is "actually" going on internally at Delta, do you? Hey, you're over there in Europe---and it's not your fault. You weren't there in Atlanta during 7.5, when the management---Ron Allen---tricked the pilots into giving up wages. It's a fact. You really don't know how much money Delta made after making the pilots give up money during the 1996 contract---and when Leo became the leader and the Delta Alpa
MEC asked him to give the pilots back what they used to have---and Leo said point blank, "Hey, a Contract is a Contract." Management was probably happy ---externally and Internally---with the new contract because the pilots DID NOT get everything that they wanted. Greedy? No---during negotiations you must always "go for the moon" and expect less. The company also opened negotiations with the pilots giving THEM things---even during that robust economy. That is how it works. Did the pilots get too much? Hey---you don't get what you don't ask for. Maybe it is different over there in Europe. Norman---maybe your airline is laughing all the way to the bank because they are under paying you
big time. What are you worth? Atleast the Delta pilots put up the bar---and if your company can afford it, then go for it. If they can't--apply to a bigger airline if you want the money. Times are tough now---and the Delta pilots and Mngmt haven't discussed
anything yet---and they might not. The Flt Attendants have a Vote for unionship coming up, and Mngmt doesn't want it voted in.
And to FFPAX----Who are you going to send these posts to? How do you know if anyone on here works for Delta? I can have an opinion about any airline---regardless who I work for. This is a FORUM. You need a life.
Regardless---It seems Delta will be around after all of this is over. Some airlines
will not, and that is sad. I feel for anyone who loses a job over this. Thank you.
Donkey Duke
First NSF: You actually seem to be very knowledgeable person with an opinion I actually respect, but I believe you are flawed when it comes to Delta. Admit it, you
really don't know what is "actually" going on internally at Delta, do you? Hey, you're over there in Europe---and it's not your fault. You weren't there in Atlanta during 7.5, when the management---Ron Allen---tricked the pilots into giving up wages. It's a fact. You really don't know how much money Delta made after making the pilots give up money during the 1996 contract---and when Leo became the leader and the Delta Alpa
MEC asked him to give the pilots back what they used to have---and Leo said point blank, "Hey, a Contract is a Contract." Management was probably happy ---externally and Internally---with the new contract because the pilots DID NOT get everything that they wanted. Greedy? No---during negotiations you must always "go for the moon" and expect less. The company also opened negotiations with the pilots giving THEM things---even during that robust economy. That is how it works. Did the pilots get too much? Hey---you don't get what you don't ask for. Maybe it is different over there in Europe. Norman---maybe your airline is laughing all the way to the bank because they are under paying you
big time. What are you worth? Atleast the Delta pilots put up the bar---and if your company can afford it, then go for it. If they can't--apply to a bigger airline if you want the money. Times are tough now---and the Delta pilots and Mngmt haven't discussed
anything yet---and they might not. The Flt Attendants have a Vote for unionship coming up, and Mngmt doesn't want it voted in.
And to FFPAX----Who are you going to send these posts to? How do you know if anyone on here works for Delta? I can have an opinion about any airline---regardless who I work for. This is a FORUM. You need a life.
Regardless---It seems Delta will be around after all of this is over. Some airlines
will not, and that is sad. I feel for anyone who loses a job over this. Thank you.
Donkey Duke
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I heard that the figure for furloughs was only 400 not 1700 pilots....out of the 10700 that they have seems an awful lot???
Also all of you who are bad mouthing the DAL pilots for their pay talks....there are other pilots who are doing just the same thing....
Last week i read that Aer Lingus Pilots are currently conducting a court action looking for a pay rise even though ALT is going down the tubes and laying off staff right,left and centre....yet their money grabbing pilots are in the courts looking for more.
Their request was turned down until ALT get out of money trouble....but still the action was there.....
I guess even the Paddys are just as greedy even if they are not getting as much as the
DAL pilots....
Also all of you who are bad mouthing the DAL pilots for their pay talks....there are other pilots who are doing just the same thing....
Last week i read that Aer Lingus Pilots are currently conducting a court action looking for a pay rise even though ALT is going down the tubes and laying off staff right,left and centre....yet their money grabbing pilots are in the courts looking for more.
Their request was turned down until ALT get out of money trouble....but still the action was there.....
I guess even the Paddys are just as greedy even if they are not getting as much as the
DAL pilots....
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ONTHEAIRWAVES,
Greedy Pilots, huh? You suck! What do you do? Probably not much. This Forum is for Professional-Pilots------get the word "professional". I guess you think professionals should not get paid what they are worth. Who determines their worth?----well you have to negotiate that. You probably think doctors shouldn't be paid much either. A Professional often has lots of RESPONSIBILITY associated with his/her
job. Pilots certainly have that. And there are probably many many more people in that airline that make far more than the pilots
and don't actually do SQUAT for the airline---like United having over 40 Vice-presidents---you never brought that up, now did you? You are un-informed and jealous. Bye Bye.
Donkey Duke
Greedy Pilots, huh? You suck! What do you do? Probably not much. This Forum is for Professional-Pilots------get the word "professional". I guess you think professionals should not get paid what they are worth. Who determines their worth?----well you have to negotiate that. You probably think doctors shouldn't be paid much either. A Professional often has lots of RESPONSIBILITY associated with his/her
job. Pilots certainly have that. And there are probably many many more people in that airline that make far more than the pilots
and don't actually do SQUAT for the airline---like United having over 40 Vice-presidents---you never brought that up, now did you? You are un-informed and jealous. Bye Bye.
Donkey Duke
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DonkeyDude and others, I cant beleive that many of you guys posting on this and other boards that work or worked for Delta (or maybe dont)continue to distort the "pay that the pilots gave up in 96" and Leo's "contract is a contract". Even DALPA publishes this stuff to missinform it's pilots workforce. If you are going to talk about these things, at least know what the truth is. It is amazing how many Delta guys dont know the real story because of DALPA's propaganda expertise. Here are a couple of links of one senior Delta pilot and an airline analyst who have written rebuttals against Mr Lay's (DALPA Rep) for Plane Buisiness. They wanted people to know the real truth, not the distorted one. I have read other statements from Delta pilots concerning this issue and they were all in line with these two so I will use them as an example.
http://www.planebusiness.com/perspec...21901held.html http://www.planebusiness.com/perspec...01wingman.html
Both of these articles will give you a little insite of the propaganda machine.
Yes I work for DELTA, and yes I pay ALPA dues. I do beleive that the pilots have legitimate gripes and concerns, but if we are going to debate, lets use the real info instead of spreading rumors. Mr Ley's article is also there which you can read.
http://www.planebusiness.com/perspec...21901held.html http://www.planebusiness.com/perspec...01wingman.html
Both of these articles will give you a little insite of the propaganda machine.
Yes I work for DELTA, and yes I pay ALPA dues. I do beleive that the pilots have legitimate gripes and concerns, but if we are going to debate, lets use the real info instead of spreading rumors. Mr Ley's article is also there which you can read.
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47guy,
Sure, a lot of that is probably mis-information or propaganda. We are not dumb people. But, you yourself, working for Delta, probably was around during last X-mas when Delta sued the pilots for"lack of overtime flying" and disseminating all the lies to the other Delta employees. Remember that? Do you? Sure, both sides probably extend the truth a little. And what about Delta MNGMT and the fight over the AFA? Why
shouldn't the Flt Attendants have the right to a Union? Delta sure as heck doesn't want that. So what am I saying? Delta doesn't seem to like labor like it used to. Did Leo say everything that ALPA said he did? The answer is "Probably." Thanks.
Donkey Duke
Sure, a lot of that is probably mis-information or propaganda. We are not dumb people. But, you yourself, working for Delta, probably was around during last X-mas when Delta sued the pilots for"lack of overtime flying" and disseminating all the lies to the other Delta employees. Remember that? Do you? Sure, both sides probably extend the truth a little. And what about Delta MNGMT and the fight over the AFA? Why
shouldn't the Flt Attendants have the right to a Union? Delta sure as heck doesn't want that. So what am I saying? Delta doesn't seem to like labor like it used to. Did Leo say everything that ALPA said he did? The answer is "Probably." Thanks.
Donkey Duke
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GUV those figures seem a bit exaggerated if they came from Delta "themselves"would that be Delta management? now I donīt know, but if Delta has 5000 pilots a half billion increase in costs works out at 100.000 US$ per head ,& they work pretty tough schedules so could this be bollocks?,I smell a rat,the press releases sometimes get out of hand...what do you think? a half billion is 500,000,000..canīt swallow that one.
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Donkey Duke
yes i do work for a major US airline and i have many friends who work for DAL...and ALT and yes i still say that the pilots are GREEDY.....why bring down your airline when times are hard ....why not all pull together and help to make the airline survive...after all if the pay increases come at a cash strapped time then the airline may go to the wall and hence you are biting your nose to save your face.....not good management sense..
I guess with your stupid attitudes and replies that you have posted you really do fit the bill of being a DONKEY....making an ASS of yourself.....but i guess you have to broadcast it to everyone else so every knows just what a fool you really are......
yes i do work for a major US airline and i have many friends who work for DAL...and ALT and yes i still say that the pilots are GREEDY.....why bring down your airline when times are hard ....why not all pull together and help to make the airline survive...after all if the pay increases come at a cash strapped time then the airline may go to the wall and hence you are biting your nose to save your face.....not good management sense..
I guess with your stupid attitudes and replies that you have posted you really do fit the bill of being a DONKEY....making an ASS of yourself.....but i guess you have to broadcast it to everyone else so every knows just what a fool you really are......
Mr. N S Fletcher: Whether I agree or not with some of your points, your style is commendable. Compared to many Ppruners who simply bash any union activity with a large Cro-Magnon club, despite the truth and no job experience with any US airline, your observations appear to be sincere and detached, without the seething personal animosity which so often appears to be the case at Pprune.
Donkey Duke: Don't let yourself be provoked by pilots or others who never even attempted a civilian pilot career.
None of them can begin to understand the US airline/business landscape, due to their exposure only to the US/foreign press and its pre-calculated levels of bias and distortion, or regret that their union has no teeth. With US doctors and lawyers it is an,...ahem... "association".
The unionized pilots at my airline gave up for three years, 15% of our paychecks in the early 90's, mostly due to the leveraged buyout (LBO), which almost sank our company. This buyout had been caused by new owners. They had "mortgaged" the airline, in order to buy it. Just who saved it? To a considerable extent, the employee groups helped out, with paycuts lasting three years.
For those Pprune members who are new here on our blue planet, without the many terrible corporate sharks who had devastated (other) US airlines in the 80s and 90s, we would not even have the union solidarity which tends to exist today. Look at Icahn's (his TWA pilots took a 40% paycut for years, in order save their company!) and Lorenzo's crippling or outright destruction of formerly proud carriers (critical asset sales, "cash upstreaming" into "holding companies"), if still in the dark about this simple concept.
If Pprune readers really hate our US airline unions, partly thank Lorenzo, Icahn, maybe Ferris, Crandall (B-scale) and others (plus the arrogance of so many former/present Congressional/Senate GOP members) for the vital services rendered by our unions. You are worth only what you negotiate.
[ 08 November 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
Donkey Duke: Don't let yourself be provoked by pilots or others who never even attempted a civilian pilot career.
None of them can begin to understand the US airline/business landscape, due to their exposure only to the US/foreign press and its pre-calculated levels of bias and distortion, or regret that their union has no teeth. With US doctors and lawyers it is an,...ahem... "association".
The unionized pilots at my airline gave up for three years, 15% of our paychecks in the early 90's, mostly due to the leveraged buyout (LBO), which almost sank our company. This buyout had been caused by new owners. They had "mortgaged" the airline, in order to buy it. Just who saved it? To a considerable extent, the employee groups helped out, with paycuts lasting three years.
For those Pprune members who are new here on our blue planet, without the many terrible corporate sharks who had devastated (other) US airlines in the 80s and 90s, we would not even have the union solidarity which tends to exist today. Look at Icahn's (his TWA pilots took a 40% paycut for years, in order save their company!) and Lorenzo's crippling or outright destruction of formerly proud carriers (critical asset sales, "cash upstreaming" into "holding companies"), if still in the dark about this simple concept.
If Pprune readers really hate our US airline unions, partly thank Lorenzo, Icahn, maybe Ferris, Crandall (B-scale) and others (plus the arrogance of so many former/present Congressional/Senate GOP members) for the vital services rendered by our unions. You are worth only what you negotiate.
[ 08 November 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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Ontheairwaves,
Hmmmmmm. Well, isn't that special. Good one! Maybe (or maybe not) I do work for Delta---regardless I know a heck of a lot more about it than you do. Hello? Bhueler?
You are lame. The pilots and Dalpa haven't gone to Delta yet because they are currently trying to find out through arbitration if their "No Furlough" clause was violated in their contract. The clause---which states
in the "circumstances for which we have No Control"---not Force Mejeur (Which by the way--according to my sources---those words aren't even in the actual contract) states that NO pilot can be furloughed during bad economic times (Now qualifies---umm yep)---regardless of how the company is doing financially. Now, after all that---would the pilots take a "pay cut" or CAP reduction to help the company survive----PROBABLY YES.
But, first they want to see if the furloughs were illeagal. Delta was paid for the days of airplane groundings by the GOVT---and after all that it is all economic. Will the pilots and Dalpa win? Maybe not---but atleast the term "Force Mejeur" will be better explained and more defined. It can't last forever. And, Leo said today at a Solomon Bros. meeting that he expected the loads to be back to pre- Sept 11th by mid 2002---which means by summertime this whole
furlough mess might be over. And to top that off-----Dec 1st more Delta Express flights will come back on line---(the 50% cut will be reduced to 35%). Things will
eventually get better. So, before you go shooting off your dumba@@ mouth ONTHEAIRWAVES, realize that the pilots at Delta want their company to survive, will
help where they can, but want this No Furlough clause thing settled. Remember good old buddy, Leo said---"A Contract is a Contract." Live it and learn it dude!!!
Thanks---Donkey Duke
Hmmmmmm. Well, isn't that special. Good one! Maybe (or maybe not) I do work for Delta---regardless I know a heck of a lot more about it than you do. Hello? Bhueler?
You are lame. The pilots and Dalpa haven't gone to Delta yet because they are currently trying to find out through arbitration if their "No Furlough" clause was violated in their contract. The clause---which states
in the "circumstances for which we have No Control"---not Force Mejeur (Which by the way--according to my sources---those words aren't even in the actual contract) states that NO pilot can be furloughed during bad economic times (Now qualifies---umm yep)---regardless of how the company is doing financially. Now, after all that---would the pilots take a "pay cut" or CAP reduction to help the company survive----PROBABLY YES.
But, first they want to see if the furloughs were illeagal. Delta was paid for the days of airplane groundings by the GOVT---and after all that it is all economic. Will the pilots and Dalpa win? Maybe not---but atleast the term "Force Mejeur" will be better explained and more defined. It can't last forever. And, Leo said today at a Solomon Bros. meeting that he expected the loads to be back to pre- Sept 11th by mid 2002---which means by summertime this whole
furlough mess might be over. And to top that off-----Dec 1st more Delta Express flights will come back on line---(the 50% cut will be reduced to 35%). Things will
eventually get better. So, before you go shooting off your dumba@@ mouth ONTHEAIRWAVES, realize that the pilots at Delta want their company to survive, will
help where they can, but want this No Furlough clause thing settled. Remember good old buddy, Leo said---"A Contract is a Contract." Live it and learn it dude!!!
Thanks---Donkey Duke
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Ignition Override,
Thank you. Finally someone who not only agrees with me, but also understands how unions work in the US and how MNGMT isn't the cureall for all situations. Does Delta and other airlines need help from their employees during this bad time? Sure. Most will get it-----but will it all be in good faith? We'll see. Can't we all just get along? I wish. Donkey Duke
Thank you. Finally someone who not only agrees with me, but also understands how unions work in the US and how MNGMT isn't the cureall for all situations. Does Delta and other airlines need help from their employees during this bad time? Sure. Most will get it-----but will it all be in good faith? We'll see. Can't we all just get along? I wish. Donkey Duke
Donkey Duke: you are welcome. There are those who want to have better situational awareness of how things happen here, and those who don't care-it might deflate their premature conclusions. Send an e-mail sometime.
Smaller Douglas planes are good too, even if it appears that some alien with acid blood fought with Sigourney Weaver in several cockpits.
Smaller Douglas planes are good too, even if it appears that some alien with acid blood fought with Sigourney Weaver in several cockpits.
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I come back, however, to my original statement that money-in must exceed money-out in order to ensure long-term success. That is not the case in most US majors, particularly Delta.
Someone has pointed out that the management was saying what a good deal had been achieved in the last pay round. They could hardly say anything else, but external analysts have all said it was over-generous.
The problem is that the goose is having a heart attack! ... The pie does not exist - you are losing money hand over fist, and you have to recognise it.
Sadly, I believe you are suicidal because you have forced a deal that is unsupportable. You are paid too much because your business cannot pay your wages. That is a straight statement of fact.
Your little story on unions is exactly 180 degrees out of phase with reality. The European socity is far more socialist and labor-friendly than the US. The US is far more capitalist and pro-business. Unions don't have nealy the leverage over here that you might think. If we did, why are we barely keeping pace with inflation?
The pilots have our own financial analysts. They tell us what the company can afford, while still allowing them to profit, grow and prosper. If they were wrong, we'd get rid of them ASAP. This is our company we're taling about here. It was our before Leo Mullin was here, and it will still be ours after he leaves. WE are the ones with the long-term vested interest, not Leo. When we seek a contract, we seeks wages and quality of life, but we balance that with productivity. That's what our trip rigs and duty rigs are about. It forces the company to build productive trips. When we go to work, we want to be productive, not just sit around. I am familiar with unproductive unions...I worked around the IAM at TWA. They were terrible. DALPA is not that way. We are arguably the least militant union in the industry. We've never struck, and our work rules are for more productive than others. When our financial analysts tell me we need to make concessions, we will. We have done so in the past, and may have to again in the future. But so far our analysts, hell not even our own CEO, has stated that they need concessions. So why am I going to give them up...based on some guy on an internet forum? Yeah right.
But the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
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MikeM727,
You are right again. Your answers to GUV and other union bashers are to the point and
accurate. Those guys really don't know the
"pulse" of what is truly going on over here.
Try as they must, they always come up short. You and Ignition Override both have sensible answers.
And more Delta news: with the UNFORTUNATE demise of Sabena---it seems Delta will reinstate it's JFK-BRU route---sooner than later--which is good news for Delta JFK 7ER
crews looking for extra lines of time----hey anything helps at this point. Ofcourse, I feel sorry for all of those Sabena guys/girls. There are going to be a lot of out of work pilots. Hopefully they can reorganize into something smaller and stronger. Thank you. Donkey Duke
You are right again. Your answers to GUV and other union bashers are to the point and
accurate. Those guys really don't know the
"pulse" of what is truly going on over here.
Try as they must, they always come up short. You and Ignition Override both have sensible answers.
And more Delta news: with the UNFORTUNATE demise of Sabena---it seems Delta will reinstate it's JFK-BRU route---sooner than later--which is good news for Delta JFK 7ER
crews looking for extra lines of time----hey anything helps at this point. Ofcourse, I feel sorry for all of those Sabena guys/girls. There are going to be a lot of out of work pilots. Hopefully they can reorganize into something smaller and stronger. Thank you. Donkey Duke