Is this you???
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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My father used to work for Scottish Power so I asked him for any information about this.
Shift engineers who control the reactor are paid between GBP 23,500 to 36,500 while training
After successfully completing training, licenced engineers salary goes up to 52,000 pounds plus shift pay.
European/US designed nuclear power plants are constructed in such a way that this scenario is impossible. Chernobyl type accidents are simply not possible, and it requires a considerable chain of events with a number of people involved to get even close to something dangerous. Three Mile Island was, from what I can understand, a system problem where the safety systems worked.
I will agree, however, that nuclear power plant engineers, watch officers on LNG tankers and train drivers are similar to pilots. They are all safety critical employees, responsible for high value equipment and people's lives.
My personal opinion is that if a company has to ask it's employees for charity in the form of paying for training, then they have got their sums wrong somewhere and do not deserve to be in business. Alternatively it could also be that they are simply cynically abusing their position of power, which allows them to put pressure on the workforce to reduce terms and conditions.
It then becomes important for the workforce to collectively join together and ensure a dialogue exists between management and themselves that preserves their T&Cs. Being in a union doesn't mean you immediately turn into an Arthur Scargill.
Shift engineers who control the reactor are paid between GBP 23,500 to 36,500 while training
After successfully completing training, licenced engineers salary goes up to 52,000 pounds plus shift pay.
Your mistake can kill immediately more people than crash of all aircraft of major airline. And then millions will suffer for many years after.
I will agree, however, that nuclear power plant engineers, watch officers on LNG tankers and train drivers are similar to pilots. They are all safety critical employees, responsible for high value equipment and people's lives.
My personal opinion is that if a company has to ask it's employees for charity in the form of paying for training, then they have got their sums wrong somewhere and do not deserve to be in business. Alternatively it could also be that they are simply cynically abusing their position of power, which allows them to put pressure on the workforce to reduce terms and conditions.
It then becomes important for the workforce to collectively join together and ensure a dialogue exists between management and themselves that preserves their T&Cs. Being in a union doesn't mean you immediately turn into an Arthur Scargill.
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also, check airman, i really wouldn't want to walk into a CEO's office and do his job! especially when everything goes t*ts and the police want to talk to the boss. then he really, really earns his salary.
I wouldn't want a desk job either, but that's not the point. How often in a career does a CEO have "one of those days"? On the other hand, how often a year (or month for that matter, depending on the type of flying you do) do you have "one of those days" (plane doing the CAT 3B app, to a contaminated RWY at max Xwind, at 2 in the morning having been on duty for 12 to 14 hours on my 4-6 sector as Kennedy said). CEO's don't directly assume responsibility for peoples lives. Yes they may push engineers to get planes out of the hangars prematurely, and yes we may be forced to fly an airplane we'd rather not, but there are lots of people in the chain that can prevent the holes that the CEO put there from lining up. Maint. guys can refuse to sign off on a job, and we can refuse to accept the plane. Last of all, if we do accept the plane and the equipment fails, we are the absolute last line of defense in averting disaster.
Given some of the cost saving strategies CEO's impose/condone, we earn our pay many times more than the fellow behind the big desk. What about the last time you took extra fuel because you thought it was prudent, then ATC has you do the whole trip below optimum altitude, and you have to hold at your destination? Isn't that earning one's pay? What about the close calls where the 2 of you say "Whoa, that was close. Good thing the CAA inspector wasn't in the jumpseat."
Note also, when the cops walk into the CEO's office, he can legally get another job as a CEO. If we were imprisoned for actions taken on the flightdeck, our licences would be revoked before the trial was even over...
I'll say we "earn our paycheck" many times more than the CEO.
I wouldn't want a desk job either, but that's not the point. How often in a career does a CEO have "one of those days"? On the other hand, how often a year (or month for that matter, depending on the type of flying you do) do you have "one of those days" (plane doing the CAT 3B app, to a contaminated RWY at max Xwind, at 2 in the morning having been on duty for 12 to 14 hours on my 4-6 sector as Kennedy said). CEO's don't directly assume responsibility for peoples lives. Yes they may push engineers to get planes out of the hangars prematurely, and yes we may be forced to fly an airplane we'd rather not, but there are lots of people in the chain that can prevent the holes that the CEO put there from lining up. Maint. guys can refuse to sign off on a job, and we can refuse to accept the plane. Last of all, if we do accept the plane and the equipment fails, we are the absolute last line of defense in averting disaster.
Given some of the cost saving strategies CEO's impose/condone, we earn our pay many times more than the fellow behind the big desk. What about the last time you took extra fuel because you thought it was prudent, then ATC has you do the whole trip below optimum altitude, and you have to hold at your destination? Isn't that earning one's pay? What about the close calls where the 2 of you say "Whoa, that was close. Good thing the CAA inspector wasn't in the jumpseat."
Note also, when the cops walk into the CEO's office, he can legally get another job as a CEO. If we were imprisoned for actions taken on the flightdeck, our licences would be revoked before the trial was even over...
I'll say we "earn our paycheck" many times more than the CEO.
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The biggest problem I see among pilots is disrespect to other professions. I have seen this for many years. Pilots tend to consider themselves Gods but this is far away from true and if you try walking in other shoes you will quickly realize that.
As correctly pointed by Flypuppy, nuclear power plant operators are paid comparable to airline pilot. However following your logic they should be paid at least 500 times better. And no plant is fail safe. Chernobyl was considered to be safe.... before it happened.
As correctly pointed by Flypuppy, nuclear power plant operators are paid comparable to airline pilot. However following your logic they should be paid at least 500 times better. And no plant is fail safe. Chernobyl was considered to be safe.... before it happened.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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However following your logic they should be paid at least 500 times better.
What I believe I was trying to say was that the groups of workers I mentioned are all comparable as they are safety critical employees, of that group the only ones who are regularly expected to fund their own training are the pilots.People have a passion for flying, at least I know I do. Airlines know this and are willing to make (ab)use of this fact. They know there are people like me out there who would sell their granny to fly. What they don't reckon on is people like my wife who keep reminding me of the realities of being able to pay the mortgage and feed the kids.
The financial equation of becoming a self sponsored airline pilot does not make sense, even without paying for a type rating. There is no handsome return on investment - in a business sense - for the financial input. If you want that, put the money into a building society account or get a good investment agent and you will safely return 7-10% per annum and you still have your investment capital. That makes financial sense.
Without type rated pilots airlines would own some very expensive kerosine burning garden sheds. Self sponsored pilots have taken the initiative and risk on initial training. They have taken the burden of the first phase. That burden is a large one.
If airlines feel that the employees should also shoulder the burden of the type specific training then apply that rule to all departments in the airline. I think you would find many people leaving the IT department/accounting/HR/middle management if they were asked to pay for the training costs of their specialist knowledge.
Aviation is a weird and wacky world full of weird and wacky people, there are too many intangibles in this business, flying on silvery wings touching the face of God and all, that make it worth the heartache and misery of getting "over the wall". It just seems that the wall gets a wee bit higher every time the industry hits rough spell. T & C get eroded a bit more, productivity demands get higher. You just need to compare the productivity of a lo-co first officer today with that of say a first officer with BEA back in the early 1970s to see the difference.
As a quick aside, the RBMK reactor design used at Chernobyl was never considered a "safe" one by Western experts. The combination of design flaws inherent in the RBMK, piss poor training of the operators and woeful communications between different groups and shifts at the plant led to the disaster.
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Reading this thread with interest, along with the thread on terms and endearment.
I'm an ATCO in the london TMA - I work bloody hard - usually for 80% of my shift (we have quiet times too), pilots have a lot of quiet time between take off and landing when its really a case of monitoring Ts and Ps (or FMS), especially long haul.
Pilots, in common with ATCOs, are highly trained. Pilots make decisions that have far reaching consequences, ATCOs do so too, often several times a minute for every minute spent on console. Pilots are responsible for the lives of a few hundred people a day, ATCOs are responsible for the lives of tens of thousands of people a day.
ATCOs tend to work a steady shift pattern however, pilots tend to fare much worse in this respect.
Pilots could end up dead as a result of a bad decision on their part or on an ATCOs part.
These are all valid statements, but some of them need quantifying; for example the one about pilots lives being on the line (made often by pilots in any discussion about pay).
Flying is still the safest form of transport - a taxi driver or truck driver or motorcycle courier is more likely to be killed whilst working than a professional airline pilot.
However, the point I want to make and not turn this into a p**sing contest is that we are well paid on the whole - a statement a colleague of mine uses is I think, quite apt.
"We are well paid, but not over paid"...
When I asked what he meant he said that he meant just that... when you look at some salaries then look at ours, we are actually well paid. However if you asked Joe Bloggs on the street, he may consider us to be overpaid, which I honestly think we are not, in fact I think we could easily get a good pay rise and still be considered to not be over paid.
The article this thread refers to is out in some instances but the salient point is that we are well paid, we receive a decent wage when considered as a black and white figure.
Despite the protestations on this thread about the fact that pilots self fund to get their license - I'm afraid it is really a moot point. Until people stop paying out the vast amounts of money they do, things will never change (and we all know that this will never happen).
The majority of ATCOS in the UK have not self funded - but believe me the boss of NATS wants us to go down that route. Again I cannot see this happening, not in NATS anyway. The amount of ATCOs we need to keep producing far outweighs the tiny amount of people who are willing to pay for the training.
Being a pilot is one of those things that kids grow up wanting to do - they see glamour and excitement - which is far from the truth in civil airline flying, however it is this misconception that means people will still self fund if they can.
Looking through all the posts pilots are on average, paid far more than ATCOs (UK speaking now). Pilots also (on average) progress much quicker up the pay scale, to a point beyond the top of ATCOs pay).
Surely these two professions are better to compare than a pilot and a doctor?
Pilots do work hard and on the rare time they have an emergency they really earn their crust.
However I would say that without a doubt that although ATCOs may not work as long hours as some pilots (especially lo-cost short haul), they work harder and are subject to more work related stress than pilots. Looking after one A/C as a pilot is pressure enough, looking after several at the same time is even more pressure.
Therefore I think that pilots should really think themselves lucky that they are being well paid to do a job they love - otherwise why do you pay so much money to get there?
Like everyone, I would like to earn more and I think I deserve more, but I am also a realist and do not think that I am better than someone in another profession.
I'm an ATCO in the london TMA - I work bloody hard - usually for 80% of my shift (we have quiet times too), pilots have a lot of quiet time between take off and landing when its really a case of monitoring Ts and Ps (or FMS), especially long haul.
Pilots, in common with ATCOs, are highly trained. Pilots make decisions that have far reaching consequences, ATCOs do so too, often several times a minute for every minute spent on console. Pilots are responsible for the lives of a few hundred people a day, ATCOs are responsible for the lives of tens of thousands of people a day.
ATCOs tend to work a steady shift pattern however, pilots tend to fare much worse in this respect.
Pilots could end up dead as a result of a bad decision on their part or on an ATCOs part.
These are all valid statements, but some of them need quantifying; for example the one about pilots lives being on the line (made often by pilots in any discussion about pay).
Flying is still the safest form of transport - a taxi driver or truck driver or motorcycle courier is more likely to be killed whilst working than a professional airline pilot.
However, the point I want to make and not turn this into a p**sing contest is that we are well paid on the whole - a statement a colleague of mine uses is I think, quite apt.
"We are well paid, but not over paid"...
When I asked what he meant he said that he meant just that... when you look at some salaries then look at ours, we are actually well paid. However if you asked Joe Bloggs on the street, he may consider us to be overpaid, which I honestly think we are not, in fact I think we could easily get a good pay rise and still be considered to not be over paid.
The article this thread refers to is out in some instances but the salient point is that we are well paid, we receive a decent wage when considered as a black and white figure.
Despite the protestations on this thread about the fact that pilots self fund to get their license - I'm afraid it is really a moot point. Until people stop paying out the vast amounts of money they do, things will never change (and we all know that this will never happen).
The majority of ATCOS in the UK have not self funded - but believe me the boss of NATS wants us to go down that route. Again I cannot see this happening, not in NATS anyway. The amount of ATCOs we need to keep producing far outweighs the tiny amount of people who are willing to pay for the training.
Being a pilot is one of those things that kids grow up wanting to do - they see glamour and excitement - which is far from the truth in civil airline flying, however it is this misconception that means people will still self fund if they can.
Looking through all the posts pilots are on average, paid far more than ATCOs (UK speaking now). Pilots also (on average) progress much quicker up the pay scale, to a point beyond the top of ATCOs pay).
Surely these two professions are better to compare than a pilot and a doctor?
Pilots do work hard and on the rare time they have an emergency they really earn their crust.
However I would say that without a doubt that although ATCOs may not work as long hours as some pilots (especially lo-cost short haul), they work harder and are subject to more work related stress than pilots. Looking after one A/C as a pilot is pressure enough, looking after several at the same time is even more pressure.
Therefore I think that pilots should really think themselves lucky that they are being well paid to do a job they love - otherwise why do you pay so much money to get there?
Like everyone, I would like to earn more and I think I deserve more, but I am also a realist and do not think that I am better than someone in another profession.
Reminds me of the story of the company in USA (sorry cannot recall which one!) which pioneered the idea of bringing freight into a central hub (by air), distribute same and then send out to appropriate destinations. They were on expensive penalties if the freight arrived late and had an automated warehouse where the freight was sorted automatically.
In the middle of the night (a busy time) all the power goes done and the equipment stops working. They are running round like headless chickens trying to sort it out so they call the engineer in. He goes to a junction box opens it gets his screwdriver out and turns one screw and then everything starts working again. The owner of the business is very happy and asks the engineer how much he owes him "Ten thousand dollars!" replies the engineer. "Thats a lot" says the owner. "Well it would have cost you a lot more in penalties if I hadnt fixed it" The owner agrees to pay but asks for an itemised receipt which shows:-
a) Turning screw $1
b) Knowing which screw to turn $9,999
This is maybe the nature of many safety critical occupations/professions.
Not true for this pilot, as already stated in a previous thread!
However, I do feel that the only ones who understand what the pilot's job feels like are pilots!
In the middle of the night (a busy time) all the power goes done and the equipment stops working. They are running round like headless chickens trying to sort it out so they call the engineer in. He goes to a junction box opens it gets his screwdriver out and turns one screw and then everything starts working again. The owner of the business is very happy and asks the engineer how much he owes him "Ten thousand dollars!" replies the engineer. "Thats a lot" says the owner. "Well it would have cost you a lot more in penalties if I hadnt fixed it" The owner agrees to pay but asks for an itemised receipt which shows:-
a) Turning screw $1
b) Knowing which screw to turn $9,999
This is maybe the nature of many safety critical occupations/professions.
The biggest problem I see among pilots is disrespect to other professions. I have seen this for many years. Pilots tend to consider themselves Gods but this is far away from true and if you try walking in other shoes you will quickly realize that
However, I do feel that the only ones who understand what the pilot's job feels like are pilots!
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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The biggest problem I see among pilots is disrespect to other professions. I have seen this for many years. Pilots tend to consider themselves Gods but this is far away from true and if you try walking in other shoes you will quickly realize that
There will always be the insecure chiseller who will define themselves by their occupation - but that is true of any occupation.
Flying is still the safest form of transport - a taxi driver or truck driver or motorcycle courier is more likely to be killed whilst working than a professional airline pilot.
Therefore I think that pilots should really think themselves lucky that they are being well paid to do a job they love
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As shown above, I am no pilot so cannot comment too much on this subject. From the outside looking in I can see that as long as certain sections of the aviation community continue to pay for their own licenses and agree to work for lower wages / safety conditions they will continue to devalue the position of pilot / fo / enigineer (if you still have them!) for everyone else. Not just a financial devalution but also that of Professionalism and self respect.
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Fly puppy wrote:
true, if not somewhat melodramatic..... (btw, I flew military hardware before embarking on my second career, so I am not ignorant of what's involved).
Fly puppy, You are the last line of defence, you do have to put the A/C down in some horrendous conditions, but with modern A/C you have a fair bit of assistance. TCAS is more of a form of defence than the pilot IMHO - sure enough the pilot has to react, but in the case of a TCAS event that's all it is, a reaction - no decision making involved, merely a series of motor neurons responding to an aural and visual input... happens every day to humans in every walk of life (though without the implications). May sound harsh but when you are as highly trained as you guys are, such an action becomes an instinct.
So yes, you are correct, if not a tiny bit melodramatic. I guarantee that pilots operating in a busy complex environment would not walk away unscathed were it not for the ATCO - so who deserves more pay? The ATCO who makes hundreds of decisions an hour based on thousands of bits of dynamic information, or the pilot who through his or her action or questioning of a clearance, prevents a nasty; (or the conversly, the ATCO who steps in to stop a pilot from doing something he has not been cleared to do (doing it in error), and thus preventing a progression of a possible nasty)?
Yes you are the last line of defence, but do you know how many things have taken place around you to prevent it getting that far?
I believe that pilots and ATCOs should be paid comparably because as you said they are a team - I don't really think that where you are in the line of the safety process (either last line of defence or first) makes that much of a difference (I could argue - though I don't agree with it because of so many other variables, that ATCOs should be paid more because they have responsibility for many more lives and much more hardware than a single pilot) - I do not even begin to want to try to argue about other professions (even though I know of crane drivers who earn around £60k and nurses who earn mid £20k).
We are well paid, and you are correct; just because someone loves their jobs does not mean they should be paid any less, but it all comes down to market forces - and galling as it may seem to you, there are still lots of people out there who are willing to pay vast amounts of money to enter your profession....
I can't believe that they don't know what they are letting themselves in for with regards to pay or Ts and Cs, and therefore if they are willing to pay huge amounts of money, just to then claim they are underpaid, who is left looking foolish? The man who does a lesser paid job, but has still got savings intact or has not been saddled with huge debt, or the pilot who is unhappy with his or her lot?
Flying is indeed safe, and why would that be? Without a doubt it is a team effort but it is the pilots who are the last line of defence when all the other failsafes have failed.
Fly puppy, You are the last line of defence, you do have to put the A/C down in some horrendous conditions, but with modern A/C you have a fair bit of assistance. TCAS is more of a form of defence than the pilot IMHO - sure enough the pilot has to react, but in the case of a TCAS event that's all it is, a reaction - no decision making involved, merely a series of motor neurons responding to an aural and visual input... happens every day to humans in every walk of life (though without the implications). May sound harsh but when you are as highly trained as you guys are, such an action becomes an instinct.
So yes, you are correct, if not a tiny bit melodramatic. I guarantee that pilots operating in a busy complex environment would not walk away unscathed were it not for the ATCO - so who deserves more pay? The ATCO who makes hundreds of decisions an hour based on thousands of bits of dynamic information, or the pilot who through his or her action or questioning of a clearance, prevents a nasty; (or the conversly, the ATCO who steps in to stop a pilot from doing something he has not been cleared to do (doing it in error), and thus preventing a progression of a possible nasty)?
Yes you are the last line of defence, but do you know how many things have taken place around you to prevent it getting that far?
I believe that pilots and ATCOs should be paid comparably because as you said they are a team - I don't really think that where you are in the line of the safety process (either last line of defence or first) makes that much of a difference (I could argue - though I don't agree with it because of so many other variables, that ATCOs should be paid more because they have responsibility for many more lives and much more hardware than a single pilot) - I do not even begin to want to try to argue about other professions (even though I know of crane drivers who earn around £60k and nurses who earn mid £20k).
We are well paid, and you are correct; just because someone loves their jobs does not mean they should be paid any less, but it all comes down to market forces - and galling as it may seem to you, there are still lots of people out there who are willing to pay vast amounts of money to enter your profession....
I can't believe that they don't know what they are letting themselves in for with regards to pay or Ts and Cs, and therefore if they are willing to pay huge amounts of money, just to then claim they are underpaid, who is left looking foolish? The man who does a lesser paid job, but has still got savings intact or has not been saddled with huge debt, or the pilot who is unhappy with his or her lot?
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Fly puppy wrote:
Quote:
Flying is indeed safe, and why would that be? Without a doubt it is a team effort but it is the pilots who are the last line of defence when all the other failsafes have failed.
true, if not somewhat melodramatic
Quote:
Flying is indeed safe, and why would that be? Without a doubt it is a team effort but it is the pilots who are the last line of defence when all the other failsafes have failed.
true, if not somewhat melodramatic
Personally don't think it is melodramatic at all, merely a statement of fact. The pilot is the last link in the chain, I am sure we have all read stories or covered the 'swiss cheese' theory in CRM courses etc...
Yes you are the last line of defence, but do you know how many things have taken place around you to prevent it getting that far
). That is not denying you guys do a fantastic job. However I feel you may only be considering the efficiency of your own native ATC when using it as a yardstick to judge pilot workload, input into the safety of the flight. Not all of the destinations I have frequented offer the same superb service that we get in Northern Europe. Have been to several places where clearances are taken with a large pinch of salt, where problems have been avoided not because of the controllers clearances but in spite of them. Anyway I am drifting a little here....I consider myself averagely paid for the work that I do, agree completely with fireflybob's sentiments on 'knowing which screw to turn'. Often the pilot is not paid for what he does, but knowing what to do, I believe in this sense the pay is correct and just. I.E a 5 year F/O gets paid more than a brand new F/O becuase he has a greater knowledge!
To be completly honest those who are advocating that graduates are just as hard working as those who have gone through flying training are, for the most part, mistaken. Getting a degree these days is not hard to do at all. Have done it myself, worked moderately hard and got a pretty good grade, but could have worked harder. It seems these days a lot of employers (normally big corporates) are fairly uninterested in what your degree entailed, more what you did on a gap year (from people I know who work in the city, this normally involves going to Thailand/Australia etc... ona massive holiday). Compare that to self funding your own flying training and successfully completing a course....and then getting a job at the end of it, think pilots deserve the acclaim they get whether it is imagined or otherwise.
I believe that pilots and ATCOs should be paid comparably
Happy landings all...
T
Last edited by TACHO; 28th Sep 2007 at 14:35. Reason: Simply god awful spelling
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I'm not a professional Pilot, a Doctor. a Lawyer or even an Accountant; nevertheless I am a professional in my field.
Early on in my career, I realised that supply/demand drove the cost of anything up and down, even your job. So I decided to go down unpopular routes that people didn't want to do, so I could demand more remuneration.
Just because you know you are highly trained, make life changing choices and you drive around expensive company toys, doesn't mean you can demand a high wage. If you are one in a million people that can do that job, the company employing you can replace you with someone else. If you are 1 in 10 and the other 9 have jobs, get ready to write your own salary checks.
Is this fair? It is totally unfair, infact, from a logical point of view it’s branching on plain stupidity.
This is a capitalist society we live in and supply/demand is the basic principle in Economics. (http://www.investopedia.com/universi...economics3.asp)
You can all moan about how valuable your job is and how many hours you work, spend time writing posts in trying proving that your job is better than someone else in another totally different professional field. (That fact that people do that really shows their professional character or lack of.)
How about you sit down, work out how many people are waiting for your job, this will help you work out your true monetary value.
Sh*tter... I know..
Early on in my career, I realised that supply/demand drove the cost of anything up and down, even your job. So I decided to go down unpopular routes that people didn't want to do, so I could demand more remuneration.
Just because you know you are highly trained, make life changing choices and you drive around expensive company toys, doesn't mean you can demand a high wage. If you are one in a million people that can do that job, the company employing you can replace you with someone else. If you are 1 in 10 and the other 9 have jobs, get ready to write your own salary checks.
Is this fair? It is totally unfair, infact, from a logical point of view it’s branching on plain stupidity.
This is a capitalist society we live in and supply/demand is the basic principle in Economics. (http://www.investopedia.com/universi...economics3.asp)
You can all moan about how valuable your job is and how many hours you work, spend time writing posts in trying proving that your job is better than someone else in another totally different professional field. (That fact that people do that really shows their professional character or lack of.)
How about you sit down, work out how many people are waiting for your job, this will help you work out your true monetary value.
Sh*tter... I know..
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How about you sit down, work out how many people are waiting for your job, this will help you work out your true monetary value.
Sh*tter... I know
Sh*tter... I know
I know that practically everyone I speak to (nearly always none aviation employed
) sees my job as very desirable. By that criteria then am I underpaid?
spend time writing posts in trying proving that your job is better than someone else
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I am now about to complete my third jet type rating, after some nine years airline flying. I paid for my own licence, and have no issues about that. Other than the light aircraft ratings required for licence issue, I have never paid for a type rating. However, I have to admit, I have been luckier than some. There were times when I was tempted...
As a return on investment, I am unlikely ever to entirely recoup the money I have spent, and the earnings lost (not only during my training, but also during my time as a Flying Instructor). However, this was a trade I considered worthwhile. I enjoy my life every bit as much as my friends who are accountants, despite their earning in some cases around six times my current salary.
As for the respect issue, I consider both pilots and ATCOs the equal of the highest levels of other professions. The difference in pay between us (pilots and ATCOs) is not that great (maybe I've been mixing with too many ATCO1s?) and is perhaps justified less by the money pilots have spent, than by the relative insecurity of our jobs. Whether the outside world considers us professionals or not, we have our own standards, and as a group we keep improving them.
As a return on investment, I am unlikely ever to entirely recoup the money I have spent, and the earnings lost (not only during my training, but also during my time as a Flying Instructor). However, this was a trade I considered worthwhile. I enjoy my life every bit as much as my friends who are accountants, despite their earning in some cases around six times my current salary.
As for the respect issue, I consider both pilots and ATCOs the equal of the highest levels of other professions. The difference in pay between us (pilots and ATCOs) is not that great (maybe I've been mixing with too many ATCO1s?) and is perhaps justified less by the money pilots have spent, than by the relative insecurity of our jobs. Whether the outside world considers us professionals or not, we have our own standards, and as a group we keep improving them.
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A few folks have suggested that pilots aren't as "professional" as doctors just because we didn't spend years in a classroom taking notes. The "$9,999 for knowing which screw to turn" illustrates why you are wrong. You go to a doctor and he tells you what's wrong. Here's the bill:
Listening to your ailments - $1
Knowing what drug to prescribe - $99
Same thing applies in aviation. Any clown knows we need to take fuel and stay above the terrain etc. But we should be paid the big bucks because we know HOW MUCH fuel to take and HOW TO AVOID the terrain. Slightly on tangent, I also think that we should be paid the moment we turn up for duty. In my opinion, preflight decisions on route, altitude, fuel, alternates and thrust derates are just as important as knowing when to turn to intercept the LOC and where to start the descent. Much of the reason flying is the safest form of transport is a direct result of the choices we make on the ground, in the dispatch office, while we're not getting paid.
Listening to your ailments - $1
Knowing what drug to prescribe - $99
Same thing applies in aviation. Any clown knows we need to take fuel and stay above the terrain etc. But we should be paid the big bucks because we know HOW MUCH fuel to take and HOW TO AVOID the terrain. Slightly on tangent, I also think that we should be paid the moment we turn up for duty. In my opinion, preflight decisions on route, altitude, fuel, alternates and thrust derates are just as important as knowing when to turn to intercept the LOC and where to start the descent. Much of the reason flying is the safest form of transport is a direct result of the choices we make on the ground, in the dispatch office, while we're not getting paid.
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Check Airman
Just acting as devil advocate I would say that basically all flight planning and performance calculation computer systems will tell you about "how much fuel, route, altitude, fuel, alternates and thrust derates". And actually what you are doing at preflight is checking printouts agains latest weather and applying your previous route experience to decide whether the printout is correct or "let's uplift 700 USG more just for mum".
But we should be paid the big bucks because we know HOW MUCH fuel to take and HOW TO AVOID the terrain. Slightly on tangent, I also think that we should be paid the moment we turn up for duty. In my opinion, preflight decisions on route, altitude, fuel, alternates and thrust derates are just as important as knowing when to turn to intercept the LOC and where to start the descent.
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Listening to your ailments - $1
Knowing what drug to prescribe - $99
Knowing what drug to prescribe - $99
I hear General Practitioners in the UK are currently earning up to 3 times my captain's salary. If it's true, surely that's overpaid?
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This is getting tedious....
Basically it would appear those who aren't pilots are the ones implying we're overpaid. 
Well, what do they know about what our job is actually like?
We know what we're worth and should fight for it. End of.
The one thing nearly everyone tends to ignore.......is that the job combines management with a high degree of a very specialised type of motor skill, requiring rapid interpretation of information provided by instruments and hand/eye co-ordination, carried out in a rapidly moving and potentially disorientating environment.
So if you must compare, then ship's Captains and surgeons are more likely to fit the bill to a certain extent, but comparisons are really not necessary.
We are what we are and we do what we do. Anyone with an once of common sense and empathy should be able to see that it's a highly skilled and extremely responsible occupation and deserves good remuneration.
Well, what do they know about what our job is actually like?
We know what we're worth and should fight for it. End of.
The one thing nearly everyone tends to ignore.......is that the job combines management with a high degree of a very specialised type of motor skill, requiring rapid interpretation of information provided by instruments and hand/eye co-ordination, carried out in a rapidly moving and potentially disorientating environment.
So if you must compare, then ship's Captains and surgeons are more likely to fit the bill to a certain extent, but comparisons are really not necessary.
We are what we are and we do what we do. Anyone with an once of common sense and empathy should be able to see that it's a highly skilled and extremely responsible occupation and deserves good remuneration.
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Pilots are considered blue-collar workers, i.e. they earn a living with their hands.......The doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc that you compare them to, are white collar workers, i.e. they earn a living with their heads
