Is this you???
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Waterloo, London
Age: 46
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pay for Lawyers
My friends who work in UK Law...
Recent graduate trainee solicitor in London - £19k for criminal work mainly legal aid. 24 hour 365 day job because crime is 24 hours and you have to attend police stations to represent clients at all times of day and night
Recent graduate Trainee solicitor in Comercial Law starting wage of £27k in 2004. monday to friday 0830-1900. very occasional weekends when lots of work to catch up on. After five years the Commercial Lawyer has been told they could be on well over £100k.
Recent graduate trainee solicitor in London - £19k for criminal work mainly legal aid. 24 hour 365 day job because crime is 24 hours and you have to attend police stations to represent clients at all times of day and night
Recent graduate Trainee solicitor in Comercial Law starting wage of £27k in 2004. monday to friday 0830-1900. very occasional weekends when lots of work to catch up on. After five years the Commercial Lawyer has been told they could be on well over £100k.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
doctors and lawyers?
I think its particularly interesting that some here are suggesting that being a Pilot is somehow directly comparable to being a doctor or a lawyer?
Those two professions require typically 5 years at university at an extremely difficult level of technical and academic study, not to forget the effort required to get 5 A Grade A-levels or the financial burden of putting yourself through university, that's 25k+ if mummy and daddy aren't paying.
A Junior doctor gets 17-20k for the first two years and work 12hr shifts or worse. A lawyer typically gets the same (outside London) but with the promise of finance from their firm to cover bar exams, however some pay themselves. Typical biased pre-selection takes place in both professions and both require constant testing and training for the duration of their remaining career.
Don't get me wrong, being a pilot must be difficult but I believe the strain involved is to do with working hours, lack of structured home life and a significant initial investment by some.
Those two professions require typically 5 years at university at an extremely difficult level of technical and academic study, not to forget the effort required to get 5 A Grade A-levels or the financial burden of putting yourself through university, that's 25k+ if mummy and daddy aren't paying.
A Junior doctor gets 17-20k for the first two years and work 12hr shifts or worse. A lawyer typically gets the same (outside London) but with the promise of finance from their firm to cover bar exams, however some pay themselves. Typical biased pre-selection takes place in both professions and both require constant testing and training for the duration of their remaining career.
Don't get me wrong, being a pilot must be difficult but I believe the strain involved is to do with working hours, lack of structured home life and a significant initial investment by some.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Waterloo, London
Age: 46
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
just found this - interesting
http://www.channel4.com/money/chat_vote_win/richometer/
I'm in the top 10% and yet I still feel broke.
I'm in the top 10% and yet I still feel broke.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Waterloo, London
Age: 46
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ha ha LOL
I got 5,485,979 richer than me and one of them must be you mucatron! Everyone wants to earn more money. Probably Bill Gates feels pissed that some Arab dude is doing better than him. human condition.
I got 5,485,979 richer than me and one of them must be you mucatron! Everyone wants to earn more money. Probably Bill Gates feels pissed that some Arab dude is doing better than him. human condition.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many newly minted graduates have the following responsibilities:
The lives of say 100 people.
Company equipment that is valued at around $60 million.
Flight decisions that can save or cost the company thousands of dollars/euros per flight.
A minor mistake that gets the company on the evening news and years of good PR can be destroyed.
What a complete crock of poopoo. The comparison is worthless. If a doctor screws up he kills one person, goes home has a stiff G&T and only has his conscience to worry about. Shipton took decades to kill an equivalent passenger load of a 737. If a lawyer screws up no one dies. Ever.
If a pilot screws up he ends up on the slab in the morgue along with the people (s)he is responsible for.
How many lawyers have to regularly be out of bed on a dark and stormy February morning at 0430 to get to their office, endure idiotic security checks, be zapped with unknown levels of radiation and, depending on aircraftt type, breathe contaminated air?
How many doctors or lawyers regularly have to spend 16-18 days separated from their families?
How many lawyers have to pay for training courses so they can work the company's photocopier?
How many doctors have to pay to learn how to work the machines that go ping in hospitals?
The lives of say 100 people.
Company equipment that is valued at around $60 million.
Flight decisions that can save or cost the company thousands of dollars/euros per flight.
A minor mistake that gets the company on the evening news and years of good PR can be destroyed.
What a complete crock of poopoo. The comparison is worthless. If a doctor screws up he kills one person, goes home has a stiff G&T and only has his conscience to worry about. Shipton took decades to kill an equivalent passenger load of a 737. If a lawyer screws up no one dies. Ever.
If a pilot screws up he ends up on the slab in the morgue along with the people (s)he is responsible for.
How many lawyers have to regularly be out of bed on a dark and stormy February morning at 0430 to get to their office, endure idiotic security checks, be zapped with unknown levels of radiation and, depending on aircraftt type, breathe contaminated air?
How many doctors or lawyers regularly have to spend 16-18 days separated from their families?
How many lawyers have to pay for training courses so they can work the company's photocopier?
How many doctors have to pay to learn how to work the machines that go ping in hospitals?
Your focus on the "death" factor has the implication that (a) you cannot price a life: untrue, as acturaries are able to do so daily, and (b) that the cost of a life is far more valuable than the cost of any other financial decision: this also is clearly untrue.
Many graduates have responsibility for:
- Actions that directly effect hundreds of people
- Access to company capital in the millions of pounds
- Actions that could result in negative PR on the front pages
Consider leaking merger information, costing billions to the subjects of the news, the company whose employee leaked the information losing reputation etc.
How many lawyers have to regularly be out of bed on a dark and stormy February morning at 0430 to get to their office, endure idiotic security checks, be zapped with unknown levels of radiation and, depending on aircraftt type, breathe contaminated air?
An attitude that simply goes down the road of "a pilot does x amount more than a graduate/doctor/lawyer" is so often a fallacy, and represents little more than ignorace of others' jobs.
The standard comeback of "well, it is choice of those in the city jobs" is also complete crock - we all made our choices to get where we are.
Some of my colleagues paid £70k plus for MBAs, paid for training courses to get a look-in at the interview, and work until 3am every day to succeed. A little respect for those who aren't sky gods like yourself is in order.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Magic Kingdom
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That article is dated by at least 20-25 years.
It sounds very much of the regulated US airline industry of the early 80's.
Even then, most pilots came from the Air Force and Navy, complete with qualifications and military pension.
Fast forward into the 90's and a completely different picture emerged. Pilots racking up large debt going to flying school, then going to commuter airlines, flying to backwater destinations to rack up hours at an hourly rate that even McDonalds would beat. All for the hopes of getting enough hours to get hired by a major carrier and also hoping that it wouldn't go out of business.
Completely different picture.
It sounds very much of the regulated US airline industry of the early 80's.
Even then, most pilots came from the Air Force and Navy, complete with qualifications and military pension.
Fast forward into the 90's and a completely different picture emerged. Pilots racking up large debt going to flying school, then going to commuter airlines, flying to backwater destinations to rack up hours at an hourly rate that even McDonalds would beat. All for the hopes of getting enough hours to get hired by a major carrier and also hoping that it wouldn't go out of business.
Completely different picture.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Leicester UK
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flypuppy,
I used to be a navigation officer on this:
Comparable value to the aircraft in your example. Comparable responsiblity regarding if anything goes wrong - your up the swanny. However no passengers! My wage was comparible with that of a F/O's (assuming values banded around on here are correct). However I didn't have to coff up a penny for my training, license (uniform for those of you with LCC's). I imagine if you cost this out over say 35 years, using a cash flow forecast, (bearing in mind the £100,000 training costs up front) you'd find that you're considerbly out of pocket in comparison.
IMHO you guys are not overpaid for the level of responsibility and professionalism you possess.
I hate the graduate comparisons. Have you sen the type of sh*t people are studying nowadays? "David Beckham Studies". I rest my case.
Wiggly
I used to be a navigation officer on this:
Comparable value to the aircraft in your example. Comparable responsiblity regarding if anything goes wrong - your up the swanny. However no passengers! My wage was comparible with that of a F/O's (assuming values banded around on here are correct). However I didn't have to coff up a penny for my training, license (uniform for those of you with LCC's). I imagine if you cost this out over say 35 years, using a cash flow forecast, (bearing in mind the £100,000 training costs up front) you'd find that you're considerbly out of pocket in comparison.
IMHO you guys are not overpaid for the level of responsibility and professionalism you possess.
I hate the graduate comparisons. Have you sen the type of sh*t people are studying nowadays? "David Beckham Studies". I rest my case.
Wiggly
Last edited by Wiggly Bob; 27th Sep 2007 at 13:04. Reason: Amateur spelling
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many doctors or lawyers regularly have to spend 16-18 days separated from their families?
How many lawyers have to pay for training courses so they can work the company's photocopier?
How many doctors have to pay to learn how to work the machines that go ping in hospitals?
That’s exactly why I wish people would stop bringing themselves and their careers down by paying for type ratings. To all the folks paying for their type ratings: PLEASE STOP!!
Before I continue, let me say that there are some cases where it is necessary to buy a type rating. Those who have families to support and bills to pay may need to do it. I know someone who had to do it because a medical condition prevented him from building PIC time as a commercial pilot. These are special cases and what follows does not apply. The following is for the guys (and girls) who grew up wanting to fly, and who are eager to get into that first jet.
The movies show pilots commanding a great deal of respect and living lavish lifestyles and taking buckets of money to the bank. We know that these days it’s quite the opposite. The economical hardship of the past few years has had a lot to do with it, but a lot of it is self inflicted. The media description of pilots was indeed accurate a number of years ago. Those guys did not attain that status by paying for type ratings. They made sure that the airlines recognized them as highly skilled professionals. As such, they were in demand, and their salaries and treatment reflected this. Nowadays, the airlines can do as they please with us, because they say “well, we can always find someone who will pay for his training if Captain John Brown refuses to accept the crap treatment we’re giving him.”
In any other field, if you want professional services, you have to pay big bucks. Think of what it costs to go see a medical specialist. Yes I understand that everyone wants to get into a jet as soon as possible, and it may work out to be a better investment right now to pay for the type rating than to be an instructor. That’s a very good reason to do it, but please look 20 to 30 years into the future. Today, we accept poor pay bad treatment from the airlines just to fly the jet that we’ve always wanted to fly. What’s going to happen when you finally get fed up with it? Do you think they’ll just say “OK, we’ll start paying and treating you better.”? No. They will simply tell you to leave if you don’t like it because they’ll find a new person to do the job.
Folks, nobody else in the airlines had to make the sacrifices or had to undergo they type of training that we do (save maybe the maintenance guys). Do not let the management degrade you. Remember, you can walk into the CEO’s office and do his job, but he can’t do yours.
Respect yourselves and your profession. Do not accept unsatisfactory working arrangements. Consider it a small sacrifice. Keep flying the props and building time. The jet job will come, and when it does come, it will be all you ever wanted.
How many lawyers have to pay for training courses so they can work the company's photocopier?
How many doctors have to pay to learn how to work the machines that go ping in hospitals?
That’s exactly why I wish people would stop bringing themselves and their careers down by paying for type ratings. To all the folks paying for their type ratings: PLEASE STOP!!
Before I continue, let me say that there are some cases where it is necessary to buy a type rating. Those who have families to support and bills to pay may need to do it. I know someone who had to do it because a medical condition prevented him from building PIC time as a commercial pilot. These are special cases and what follows does not apply. The following is for the guys (and girls) who grew up wanting to fly, and who are eager to get into that first jet.
The movies show pilots commanding a great deal of respect and living lavish lifestyles and taking buckets of money to the bank. We know that these days it’s quite the opposite. The economical hardship of the past few years has had a lot to do with it, but a lot of it is self inflicted. The media description of pilots was indeed accurate a number of years ago. Those guys did not attain that status by paying for type ratings. They made sure that the airlines recognized them as highly skilled professionals. As such, they were in demand, and their salaries and treatment reflected this. Nowadays, the airlines can do as they please with us, because they say “well, we can always find someone who will pay for his training if Captain John Brown refuses to accept the crap treatment we’re giving him.”
In any other field, if you want professional services, you have to pay big bucks. Think of what it costs to go see a medical specialist. Yes I understand that everyone wants to get into a jet as soon as possible, and it may work out to be a better investment right now to pay for the type rating than to be an instructor. That’s a very good reason to do it, but please look 20 to 30 years into the future. Today, we accept poor pay bad treatment from the airlines just to fly the jet that we’ve always wanted to fly. What’s going to happen when you finally get fed up with it? Do you think they’ll just say “OK, we’ll start paying and treating you better.”? No. They will simply tell you to leave if you don’t like it because they’ll find a new person to do the job.
Folks, nobody else in the airlines had to make the sacrifices or had to undergo they type of training that we do (save maybe the maintenance guys). Do not let the management degrade you. Remember, you can walk into the CEO’s office and do his job, but he can’t do yours.
Respect yourselves and your profession. Do not accept unsatisfactory working arrangements. Consider it a small sacrifice. Keep flying the props and building time. The jet job will come, and when it does come, it will be all you ever wanted.
Many graduates have responsibility for:
Actions that directly effect hundreds of people
Access to company capital in the millions of pounds
Actions that could result in negative PR on the front pages
Actions that directly effect hundreds of people
Access to company capital in the millions of pounds
Actions that could result in negative PR on the front pages
I have every respect for those involved in all the professions. They have all sweated hard for their qualifications and ALL deserve to be well remunerated.
What I take issue with is the halluciantion that pilots are "well paid". Maybe some of them are but when you look at the terms and conditions that many pilots now have to work under I would argue that many are NOT "well paid".
They also have careers which can be terminated at the drop of a hat - you might fail your medical or fail to make the standards on the bi-annual checks which you are subject to for the whole of your career.
Many of my friends outside aviation seem to think that I earn circa £100,000 a year and just push a few buttons all day - I thoroughly enjoy my job as a pilot but would not recommend my children to enter the profession now!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now now - careful now!
Ugly lawyers Mr Bernoulli?
Now that's funny but probably wholly unfounded...
Back to the topic...
I take home in the region of £2800 for spending a month driving a medium size jet around Europe. Been doing that for 9 years.
I work almost all of the time with people of the highest professional standards.
We all know the routine - we diligently go over and over the same sort of stuff day after day - constantly checking our 'sums' and generally being cautious, boring and conservative with all aspects of our work.
We produce repeatable and safe results time after time after time.
When I come home I have to deal with Doctors/Lawyers and lots of other so called professional people who often don't really deserve to be called such. There are of course good ones, but sometimes the level of professional application from all sorts of people who earn similar sums to me leaves me aghast.
As my experience has built up I have sometimes thought that I did what could be described as a routine and easy job. But when I interact with other professions I find so often that the simple things that I take for granted in myself are not replicated in other people in other jobs.
I am NOT perfect but I try to do the simple stuff very very well.
We allow ourselves to be beaten into the corner far too often - we ARE equivalent to the higher level of the employment spectrum. I know a lot of people from all walks of life - all very nice and clever guys and girls - but very few could do what our job requires these days - certainly on the basis of the evidence I see around me every day.
Oh - and it cost me £60k + a marriage + 10 years of hard work to get here.
Now, back to the subject of ugly lawyers..!
Now that's funny but probably wholly unfounded...
Back to the topic...
I take home in the region of £2800 for spending a month driving a medium size jet around Europe. Been doing that for 9 years.
I work almost all of the time with people of the highest professional standards.
We all know the routine - we diligently go over and over the same sort of stuff day after day - constantly checking our 'sums' and generally being cautious, boring and conservative with all aspects of our work.
We produce repeatable and safe results time after time after time.
When I come home I have to deal with Doctors/Lawyers and lots of other so called professional people who often don't really deserve to be called such. There are of course good ones, but sometimes the level of professional application from all sorts of people who earn similar sums to me leaves me aghast.
As my experience has built up I have sometimes thought that I did what could be described as a routine and easy job. But when I interact with other professions I find so often that the simple things that I take for granted in myself are not replicated in other people in other jobs.
I am NOT perfect but I try to do the simple stuff very very well.
We allow ourselves to be beaten into the corner far too often - we ARE equivalent to the higher level of the employment spectrum. I know a lot of people from all walks of life - all very nice and clever guys and girls - but very few could do what our job requires these days - certainly on the basis of the evidence I see around me every day.
Oh - and it cost me £60k + a marriage + 10 years of hard work to get here.
Now, back to the subject of ugly lawyers..!
Last edited by 8846; 27th Sep 2007 at 16:07. Reason: Context problems..!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
..and another thing!
The labour market basically rewards rarity of talent and to some extent desire.
The number of people who have the mental skills and application to make a successful stab at being a Doctor/Lawyer or Airline Pilot is limited. Therefore the cost of employing them goes up.
The number of people prepared to put theselves through the hell of self -funded ATPLs, Bar exams, Houseman years at hospital (permanantly on call for a week, PLUS a normal 10 hour day on the wards) is smaller still.
The work done in 'getting there' may inspire respect but it doesn't necesarily have to command high salaries.
I work with aspiring Olympic athletes in my spare time and the level of dedication that they apply would leave every Doctor/Lawyer or Airline Pilot open mouthed - and they are NOT doing it for the money - just the glory.
Very few will ever make any money from their sport (unlike football).
I love my job, I've worked hard to get it and I think I give good value for money.
The number of people who have the mental skills and application to make a successful stab at being a Doctor/Lawyer or Airline Pilot is limited. Therefore the cost of employing them goes up.
The number of people prepared to put theselves through the hell of self -funded ATPLs, Bar exams, Houseman years at hospital (permanantly on call for a week, PLUS a normal 10 hour day on the wards) is smaller still.
The work done in 'getting there' may inspire respect but it doesn't necesarily have to command high salaries.
I work with aspiring Olympic athletes in my spare time and the level of dedication that they apply would leave every Doctor/Lawyer or Airline Pilot open mouthed - and they are NOT doing it for the money - just the glory.
Very few will ever make any money from their sport (unlike football).
I love my job, I've worked hard to get it and I think I give good value for money.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: OMDB
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I have discussed this topic, with members of our profession and with the others (usually when I have had to correct their wild assumptions on the amount in my pay cheque), I usually say that we pilots earn our whole yearly salary on one maybe two days when we have "one of those days" when the public, the company and the schedule demands that we fly when even birds are staying on the ground!
Then I look them in the eye and ask them if, assuming their other half, child, grandchild, etc was on that plane doing the CAT 3B app, to a contaminated RWY at max Xwind, at 2 in the morning having been on duty for 12 to 14 hours on my 4-6 sector, that the pilot is paid what he/she is worth!
instead of the same wage (as an easyjet F/O aug2001 til June2004) as their plumber!
That usually shuts them up rather quickly!
Then I look them in the eye and ask them if, assuming their other half, child, grandchild, etc was on that plane doing the CAT 3B app, to a contaminated RWY at max Xwind, at 2 in the morning having been on duty for 12 to 14 hours on my 4-6 sector, that the pilot is paid what he/she is worth!
instead of the same wage (as an easyjet F/O aug2001 til June2004) as their plumber!That usually shuts them up rather quickly!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Want something to compare? Here it is: a Nuclear Power Plant Operator job. Requires license. You are responsible for an asset valued more than all aircraft of major airline fleet together. Your mistake can kill immediately more people than crash of all aircraft of major airline. And then millions will suffer for many years after.
And by the way, millions cannot live without energy produced by your plant.
So this job is probably is more important than job done by 500 airline Captains. Anyone want to bet what is the typical salary for this position?
And by the way, millions cannot live without energy produced by your plant.
So this job is probably is more important than job done by 500 airline Captains. Anyone want to bet what is the typical salary for this position?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Room 249
Age: 39
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
okay, simple question, meant not to irritate but to give some perspective:
who would swap their job driving whatever they do around the sky to search through somebody's guts, write a minerals lease, go to defend some shameless chav in court, teach people to drive or go out to afghanistan to get shot at by the taliban?
i'm willing to be that the majority of people in the industry would stick with their chosen career! no industry pays what its employees deserve all the time; what makes ours worth it is that, from what i have gathered from everyone that i have ever spoken to, is that once you break cloud and get the office view, no-one would want to swap it for an ikea desk and a metal filing cabinet.
my sis works hilarious hours in manchester for a law firm, and earns a really decent whack. do the firm get their money's worth? damn right. will the company i work for get their money's worth from me? of course they will, especially as a young and overly eager first officer. it happen everywhere, but i wouldn't have paid such a ridiculous amount of money to learn how to be a doctor, driving instructor, lawyer, barrister, nuclear powerplant technician, deck officer (Wiggly Bob i did try it with maersk, and the RN though) or, in fact, to go and do anything else.
except to be an astronaut. i'd probably have paid to train as an astronaut.
rather a tangent perhaps, but thought it would put some perspective on it to remind people that no-one is really paid above their job. i have never met anyone who gets paid too much for what they are asked to do, and everyone's job is vital in one way or another.
who would swap their job driving whatever they do around the sky to search through somebody's guts, write a minerals lease, go to defend some shameless chav in court, teach people to drive or go out to afghanistan to get shot at by the taliban?
i'm willing to be that the majority of people in the industry would stick with their chosen career! no industry pays what its employees deserve all the time; what makes ours worth it is that, from what i have gathered from everyone that i have ever spoken to, is that once you break cloud and get the office view, no-one would want to swap it for an ikea desk and a metal filing cabinet.
my sis works hilarious hours in manchester for a law firm, and earns a really decent whack. do the firm get their money's worth? damn right. will the company i work for get their money's worth from me? of course they will, especially as a young and overly eager first officer. it happen everywhere, but i wouldn't have paid such a ridiculous amount of money to learn how to be a doctor, driving instructor, lawyer, barrister, nuclear powerplant technician, deck officer (Wiggly Bob i did try it with maersk, and the RN though) or, in fact, to go and do anything else.
except to be an astronaut. i'd probably have paid to train as an astronaut.
rather a tangent perhaps, but thought it would put some perspective on it to remind people that no-one is really paid above their job. i have never met anyone who gets paid too much for what they are asked to do, and everyone's job is vital in one way or another.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Room 249
Age: 39
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
also, check airman, i really wouldn't want to walk into a CEO's office and do his job! especially when everything goes t*ts and the police want to talk to the boss. then he really, really earns his salary.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sure that's true but pilots have to make decisions in "real time" - if things get a bit tough they cannot walk off and take a tea break or leave it till tomorrow!
Look, it is clear that pay no longer reflects the idealised image, and the responsibilities - supply and demand have unfortunately forced it down - but the comparisons with other careers are utterly meaningless - one can pick apart strands of similarities and dissimilarities: just don't bother, and have some respect for others' careers too.