bmi Redundancies (2)
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This thread is like Groundhog Day. The bmir crew council were consulted throughout the setting up of the agreement and were instrumental in the old one being scrapped.I will explain once again that the pilots who left the company called bmi regional (formerly British Midland Commuter)and signed contracts with the company called bmi no longer have any connection with bmir. They have left and joined another company. The only difference between them and any other new join at bmi is that that they have been given a date of joining for employment purposes that is the same as their date of joining BMC. You can argue the morality and the emotional stuff as much as you like but the facts are the facts. No-one working for bmi has any legal claim to a job with bmir and vice versa. Those who transferred to bmi work for bmi. The Transfer agreement is not a mess. It was supposed to work this way. The only advantage that these people got by working for bmir before joining bmi was their date of joining. Fact. Now please, someone, put these guys out of their agony or this will go on for ever.
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Changing subject(leave those 7 alone!it wont change things, and stilll leave over 100 people in the streets)....
Any news about more senior crew taking the offer of early retirement or unpaid leave?
Any news about more senior crew taking the offer of early retirement or unpaid leave?
Just a numbered other
Bash,
Agreed, it is getting a bit like Groundhog Day, but some questions remain unanswered. You say:
‘The only advantage that these people got by working for bmir before joining bmi was their date of joining. Fact. Now please, someone, put these guys out of their agony or this will go on for ever.’
Quite. The crux of the matter is whether that was fair, and who agreed it. BALPA is its members, and I for one was not consulted. It seems that the two companies are being viewed as separate entities when it suits some folk, and as one big company to suit others. Their ‘agony’ is shared by 109 others, remember.
EICAS sees that and is aware that the whole affair is a ‘muddle’. (BTW, EICAS, the Navy is not a job for life. You join on a fixed term contract, and at its end you are out. Personally I was out in to the last recession and to the dole queue. With that in mind perhaps you’ll understand that I know how these guys feel, facing the prospect of unemployment).
Stag point,
I understand you ‘seeing red’ and perhaps the word ‘cuckoo’ was rather ill advised. I apologise for it’s use, but you must see that 7 of ‘my best mates’ are being disadvantaged to the benefit of 7 of yours. By the way, I am fighting for their rights, and my posts here are a part of that. I do wonder sometimes if it is worth it, as I have worked with some of those directly affected, and find their supine apathy hard to take.
Two logical arguments:
1 If bmi/bmir is one big company, and those who ‘transferred’ have their employment protected by ‘Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations (TUPE)’, then it must follow that those pilots facing redundancy with bmi who are senior by group joining date to pilots in bmir should also be protected.
2 If bmi and bmir are two separate companies, then the redundancies should be handled separately (as is happening). In this case the 7 should assume their position on the seniority list i.a.w. their date of joining bmi and go.
The present 'mix and match' of the two is simply unfair.
Agreed, it is getting a bit like Groundhog Day, but some questions remain unanswered. You say:
‘The only advantage that these people got by working for bmir before joining bmi was their date of joining. Fact. Now please, someone, put these guys out of their agony or this will go on for ever.’
Quite. The crux of the matter is whether that was fair, and who agreed it. BALPA is its members, and I for one was not consulted. It seems that the two companies are being viewed as separate entities when it suits some folk, and as one big company to suit others. Their ‘agony’ is shared by 109 others, remember.
EICAS sees that and is aware that the whole affair is a ‘muddle’. (BTW, EICAS, the Navy is not a job for life. You join on a fixed term contract, and at its end you are out. Personally I was out in to the last recession and to the dole queue. With that in mind perhaps you’ll understand that I know how these guys feel, facing the prospect of unemployment).
Stag point,
I understand you ‘seeing red’ and perhaps the word ‘cuckoo’ was rather ill advised. I apologise for it’s use, but you must see that 7 of ‘my best mates’ are being disadvantaged to the benefit of 7 of yours. By the way, I am fighting for their rights, and my posts here are a part of that. I do wonder sometimes if it is worth it, as I have worked with some of those directly affected, and find their supine apathy hard to take.
Two logical arguments:
1 If bmi/bmir is one big company, and those who ‘transferred’ have their employment protected by ‘Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations (TUPE)’, then it must follow that those pilots facing redundancy with bmi who are senior by group joining date to pilots in bmir should also be protected.
2 If bmi and bmir are two separate companies, then the redundancies should be handled separately (as is happening). In this case the 7 should assume their position on the seniority list i.a.w. their date of joining bmi and go.
The present 'mix and match' of the two is simply unfair.
Uncle Pete
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Why can't we chuck all the joining dates in the same sack and start from there?
The one way flow flow from bmir to bmi of redundancy dates seems more than unfair to all concerned!
MP
The one way flow flow from bmir to bmi of redundancy dates seems more than unfair to all concerned!
MP
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Unfortunatly Pete your, or should I say the BALPA scoe clause stops any traffic from bmi to bmir. Although I did jear a rumour that the SCope CLause had been scraped.
Ark Royal
Good luck with the fight.
Go too run and get the kids from school.
Ark Royal
Good luck with the fight.
Go too run and get the kids from school.
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Eventually Bill Murray just smack's the annoying bloke in the gob. I've tried to explain that this has got nothing to do with fair or right or morals. The seven do not work for bmir! If you want to challenge the terms of their employment with bmi then do it through the appropriate channel which I would think is BALPA. They're a trade union and should know about these things. Remember that the transferees are probably members and entitled to protection as much as any other member. If you're not a member or you don't want to do anything about it then stop whining.
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Girls, PLEASE!
Can we just agree that from one end of the telescope, the case of the 'Donington Seven' is manifestly unfair and, from the other, is a bit of luck for them (although a problem that should probably have been spotted when it was created). Either way, it's a done deal and no amount of sniping is going to change it. (I speak as one who has been pushed seven places down the list and am out of a job as of Jan 23rd) Interestingly, I note that Linda L's up to date seniority list as of 04/10/01 made no mention of the seven..........ho, hum.
The crucial thing is to try to save at least some of the 109 (where-ever they originated) and stop SMB (B*stard!) from behaving like a Victorian mill owner. For God's sake let's stick together here.
Twenty point nine million quid? How did he get that? It certainly wasn't a leadership bonus. Still, probably buys a whole sh*tload of amyl nitrate!
F.
You haven't seen me, right?
Can we just agree that from one end of the telescope, the case of the 'Donington Seven' is manifestly unfair and, from the other, is a bit of luck for them (although a problem that should probably have been spotted when it was created). Either way, it's a done deal and no amount of sniping is going to change it. (I speak as one who has been pushed seven places down the list and am out of a job as of Jan 23rd) Interestingly, I note that Linda L's up to date seniority list as of 04/10/01 made no mention of the seven..........ho, hum.
The crucial thing is to try to save at least some of the 109 (where-ever they originated) and stop SMB (B*stard!) from behaving like a Victorian mill owner. For God's sake let's stick together here.
Twenty point nine million quid? How did he get that? It certainly wasn't a leadership bonus. Still, probably buys a whole sh*tload of amyl nitrate!
F.
You haven't seen me, right?
Uncle Pete
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I'm waiting on the pension deal to decide whether or not to take Early Voluntary Retirement(ER) but not getting much help at the moment. Hope to have a decision by the end of this week and save at least one job.
Watch this space!
Nearly Retired MP
Watch this space!
Nearly Retired MP
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Quite frankly, I couldn't give a **** about doing our dirty washing in public; SMB has used all available media, including TV & radio to show himself in the best possible light, conveniently omitting to mention that he's a lying b@stard who cares not one jot or tittle for anyone but himself.
Without being melodramatic, I hope that there's just a chance that some of those same media keep a watch on this forum and may expose him for the charlatan he is, thereby giving us some leverage to do something about the current situation.
It may surprise non-bmi employees to know that, despite (obviously) having 20% too many pilots, the crewing dept. is still disturbing people at home, buying days off & calling folk from standby. Somebody (with a moustache, methinks) is not telling the truth here.
F.
You haven't seen me, right?
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: fokker ]
Without being melodramatic, I hope that there's just a chance that some of those same media keep a watch on this forum and may expose him for the charlatan he is, thereby giving us some leverage to do something about the current situation.
It may surprise non-bmi employees to know that, despite (obviously) having 20% too many pilots, the crewing dept. is still disturbing people at home, buying days off & calling folk from standby. Somebody (with a moustache, methinks) is not telling the truth here.
F.
You haven't seen me, right?
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: fokker ]
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fokker,
Although I know how you must be feeling at being the 109 it seems that you have a very exagerated hatred of the bmi management for someone who has not been in the company that long. With that amount of discontent with your management you must be grateful that they are releasing you to find a job elsewhere.
As far as your points about crewing, they will only buy days off the people who are willing to sell them. It is those people you should take your grievances up with, and I will be 100% with you. Until people stop selling days off the company will always think that they can run the schedule with LESS pilots.
As far as crewing still calling people from standby. Isn't that the idea!! Standby days however much you dont like them are not days off.
As much as you dislike the management these are the people that may just save your job if suitable routes can be found by Jan 23rd.
Although I know how you must be feeling at being the 109 it seems that you have a very exagerated hatred of the bmi management for someone who has not been in the company that long. With that amount of discontent with your management you must be grateful that they are releasing you to find a job elsewhere.
As far as your points about crewing, they will only buy days off the people who are willing to sell them. It is those people you should take your grievances up with, and I will be 100% with you. Until people stop selling days off the company will always think that they can run the schedule with LESS pilots.
As far as crewing still calling people from standby. Isn't that the idea!! Standby days however much you dont like them are not days off.
As much as you dislike the management these are the people that may just save your job if suitable routes can be found by Jan 23rd.
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LLG,
How very patronising.
FYI, I don't 'hate' anyone. It's a silly word.
However:
Fact: When asked in another forum about a specific issue, D.Ops deliberately lied in response.
Fact: SMB has gone on record in the house magazine, the national press and on TV, portraying himself as working tirelessly to reduce compulsory job losses. He has done no such thing.
Fact: The 'management' are now using the idea that those not in the 109 should be grateful to have a job and are attempting to steal back agreements on terms & conditions hard-won over many years. This is behaviour unworthy of an industrial-revolution mill-owner.
Fact: There are two G's in 'exaggerated'
F.
YHSMR?
How very patronising.
FYI, I don't 'hate' anyone. It's a silly word.
However:
Fact: When asked in another forum about a specific issue, D.Ops deliberately lied in response.
Fact: SMB has gone on record in the house magazine, the national press and on TV, portraying himself as working tirelessly to reduce compulsory job losses. He has done no such thing.
Fact: The 'management' are now using the idea that those not in the 109 should be grateful to have a job and are attempting to steal back agreements on terms & conditions hard-won over many years. This is behaviour unworthy of an industrial-revolution mill-owner.
Fact: There are two G's in 'exaggerated'
F.
YHSMR?
Just a numbered other
Bash,
Smack in gob taken gracefully. I'll leave the '7' subject alone. Thanks, fokker for summarising it all.
Just remember
Only two things fly at night:
Bats and t*ats
Smack in gob taken gracefully. I'll leave the '7' subject alone. Thanks, fokker for summarising it all.
Just remember
Only two things fly at night:
Bats and t*ats
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Fokker,
Hear, Hear.
I can absolutely verify that not only are certain individuals within bmi management somewhat economical with the truth ( I would just come out and say LIE but it is so emotive)but that they are incompetent.
Fortunately you do have some quite magnificent colleagues who will do their utmost to support you; look at the response from MP. The problem you have is one of time: if MP and any others seeking EVR don't get the information they need to make the decision, due to management incompetence, their assistance will be too late.
When the dust settles in a few months though, who will bmi get to fly their aircraft ? A lot of folks will have very long memories!
Hear, Hear.
I can absolutely verify that not only are certain individuals within bmi management somewhat economical with the truth ( I would just come out and say LIE but it is so emotive)but that they are incompetent.
Fortunately you do have some quite magnificent colleagues who will do their utmost to support you; look at the response from MP. The problem you have is one of time: if MP and any others seeking EVR don't get the information they need to make the decision, due to management incompetence, their assistance will be too late.
When the dust settles in a few months though, who will bmi get to fly their aircraft ? A lot of folks will have very long memories!
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Guys
Good news is only round the corner. More than half of the bmir pilots on teh redundancy list have had their redundancy notices withdrawn. Since Sabena have gone under, and condolences to the 16000 Sabena workforce that are looking at a cold and bleak Xmas. bmi are staying on the EDI-BRU and have announced that they have applied to do BRU from MAN, BHX, and one other port I think.
Don't know what acft they will use, but I hear the are hell bent on laying up the 321's, are they that much more expensive to fly than the 320/734.
Good news is only round the corner. More than half of the bmir pilots on teh redundancy list have had their redundancy notices withdrawn. Since Sabena have gone under, and condolences to the 16000 Sabena workforce that are looking at a cold and bleak Xmas. bmi are staying on the EDI-BRU and have announced that they have applied to do BRU from MAN, BHX, and one other port I think.
Don't know what acft they will use, but I hear the are hell bent on laying up the 321's, are they that much more expensive to fly than the 320/734.
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fokker,
Sorry about that I didn't mean to upset you. I was just trying to point out that the two crewing points you brought up were pretty irrelevant. One of them being about people selling days off (which really annoys me).
Point noted about my spelling although I can't promise it will not happen again.The majority of the stuff you have posted on these pages I have supported.
I hope that with new routes the bmi redundancies thread will vanish and we can all concentrate on fighting for the lifestyle issues.
On a slightly different note does anyone know whether the new routes will be operated by bmir aircraft.
Sorry about that I didn't mean to upset you. I was just trying to point out that the two crewing points you brought up were pretty irrelevant. One of them being about people selling days off (which really annoys me).
Point noted about my spelling although I can't promise it will not happen again.The majority of the stuff you have posted on these pages I have supported.
I hope that with new routes the bmi redundancies thread will vanish and we can all concentrate on fighting for the lifestyle issues.
On a slightly different note does anyone know whether the new routes will be operated by bmir aircraft.