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Atlas Jet Hijack

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.
View Poll Results: Should the pilots of the hijacked a/c be criticised for disabling it by abandoning it
I AM a professional pilot and they SHOULD NOT be criticised
430
55.70%
I AM a professional pilot and they SHOULD be criticised
31
4.02%
I AM NOT a professional pilot and they SHOULD NOT be criticised
279
36.14%
I AM NOT an professional pilot ad they SHOULD be criticised
16
2.07%
I have no opinion one way or another
16
2.07%
Voters: 772. This poll is closed

Atlas Jet Hijack

Old 26th Aug 2007, 15:12
  #81 (permalink)  
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Interesting thread, and I'm pleased the overwhelming majority in the poll came to the correct conclusion that the pilots leave the aircraft. By doing so, the worst possible outcome is greatly reduced.

One aspect not touched on yet, though, is what if one or both of the pilots are armed FFDOs? Are they obligated to stay on? Or is the greater good for them to get off also?
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Old 26th Aug 2007, 18:23
  #82 (permalink)  

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One aspect not touched on yet, though, is what if one or both of the pilots are armed FFDOs? Are they obligated to stay on? Or is the greater good for them to get off also?
My personal opinion is that armed or not, off the airplane. One very big advantage of having a FFDO in the cockpit on the ground is to assure that the pilots get off the aircraft.

(An FFDO also presents another opportunity or way to disable the aircraft to ensure the aircraft remains on the ground. It would be rather difficult to start the engines with a couple of rounds through the engine start switches, fuel panel, etc.)

Remember, as long as the aircraft is on the ground, the authorities, not the hijackers are in control of the overall situation. The hijackers are just in control of the aircraft and sadly the passengers. Unless of course the aircraft is in a country that is sympathetic to the hijacker's cause, then all bets are off.
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Old 26th Aug 2007, 18:29
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Zagorfly,

Remind me who you are an airline manager with again? Your comments are some of the most disgusting I have read for a while now. You must have been HR trained as theose people have no idea whatsoever how to handle staff.

Sack (or sake) the pilots??
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Old 26th Aug 2007, 22:53
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Official airline policies

The procedure of cockpit crew abandoning or escaping the aircraft, if and when possible, is an established policy of all airlines that I know. This policy was already existing in the 1970s with PanAm.
xxx
I often represent Argentina and my present airline at various ICAO and IATA conferences and shake hands and bump heads with the representatives of numerous countries and airlines. I know this policy is recommended by most if not all of the airlines in the world.
xxx
A plane abandoned on the ramp by cockpit crews is of no use to hijackers, worse even for them if the aircraft is full of passengers, and numerous examples of this situation exist. Our cabin crews are briefed in accordance with this policy.
xxx

Happy contrails
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 00:13
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Rainboe,

Pulling the fire handles... plane ain't going anywhere......

Try it sometime or read up on it next time you have a quiet hour or 3 on the flightdeck.....
So how does pulling the fire handles permanently disable an aircraft?

Anyone with a respectable desktop flight simulator knows about fire handles. Disconnecting gens sounds like a much better idea, depending on aircraft type.

Rgds.
NSEU

P.S. I'll bet the terrorists are just loving these handy tips.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 02:11
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Maybe he meant when you pull the fire handles, to pull the damn things completely out of the console, wont be any reset then!
Then throw the things out the window or overhead escape hatch.
After you get out of the aircraft you can look them in the eye with the fire handles and all hardware in your hand ,be it the wires or cables and say "whatcha gona do now cowboy"?
Sorry, had to laugh at this idea also!
Just a joke here everyone, no need to slam me more.

Last edited by Earl; 30th Aug 2007 at 03:57.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 02:50
  #87 (permalink)  
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Pulling fire handles will prevent engine start. Pulling switch arms fire extinguisher; closes fuel shutoff valve; depressurizes engine driven hydraulic pump and shuts off hydraulic fluid supply; trips generator field after a time delay; closes bleed air valve. However all sytems will be restored by pushing fire handles back in again.

Disconnecting CSDs will disable generators and can only be reset on the ground. Engine cowl has to be lifted to gain access to the reset switch. APU generator power will still be available, so a hijacker in the know could still operate the aircraft.

Best way to disable aircraft is to connect a tug and apply the brakes.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 03:09
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Try it sometime or read up on it next time you have a quiet hour or 3 on the flightdeck.....
So what book was AnartificialHorizon reading?

P.S. You might need to manually reset a few switches on the flight deck when you reset the fire handles (I tried it a month or two ago). Not saying which ones tho'
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 04:03
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happy ending!!

Atlas crew did the right thing, save the day. No need to cry over spilled milk anymorwe.Pax should wake up ,wipe their tears and kiss the ground and buy the guys dinner at GELIK at Bakirkoy.... over.!!
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 04:18
  #90 (permalink)  

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"Rainboe,

Pulling the fire handles... plane ain't going anywhere......"

It's gonna get ugly I tellya..real ugly...
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 13:36
  #91 (permalink)  
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You could also take your axe and smash the circuit breaker panel either in the starter and ignition or fuel pump locations after pulling the appropriate breakers. Won't go anywhere then.

Fire handle functions vary among airliners. Most, but not all shut off fuel, air, hydraulics and electrics. Some can be reset to normal when pulled, some can't.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 13:51
  #92 (permalink)  
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Can we restore a little reality to this thread? A little knowledge is a very bad thing. First off, pulling fire handles doesn't do anything that cannot be repaired in 2 seconds. Disconnecting generator drives does not prevent the aeroplane being started up and flown.....until battery power runs out and all instrumentation is lost and total loss of plane and contents extremely likely- you would be making a bad situation desperately worse. As to the suggestions of taking the axe to the flight deck systems, I hold my head in my hands, and the employers will be holding your cojones in their hands for needlessly damaging their lovely shiny equipment! And you may well get yourself shot and prevent your own escape by making all that racket.

Can we try and agree that the right thing to do is for the drivers to absent themselves at any given opportunity? It allows the authorities to hold captive the captivators, it prevents 'escape', and the Captain is no longer in command of the situation so if he can, he should exit and not become just another hostage. Meanwhile I hope those who made rash statements criticising the crews now see the light.

Please- no more bright ideas from flight simmers or people who don't know aeroplanes!

I feel this has been discussed enough, some of this should really be confidential, and I point you to this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=289981
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 23:23
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Please- no more bright ideas from flight simmers or people who don't know aeroplanes!
If you're referring to my comment, Rainboe... I'm a Boeing aircraft maintenance engineer of over 30 years who does know how well flight simmers have become familiar with aircraft operation. Never underestimate them... They have shown that they can jump into a Level D sim power up a dead ship, programme the FMC and fly anywhere they want to.

Incidentally, I believe I was the first to defend your statement that pulling fire handles was a waste of time.

Rgds
NSEU
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 10:28
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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ZAGORFLY, I am delighted with your posting, Sake for the flightcrew! Champagne would fit better. However I do not believe you are an airline manager, because then you would have had posted a much more appropriate posting into the matter knowing about av.security.

Cheers, QTA
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 10:39
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Those ATLAS guys did the right thing.

k-o-t-s
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 16:24
  #96 (permalink)  
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I've given your post some thought, Rainboe, and refined my escape plan.

Should I be involved in an on-the-ground hijack attempt, I am going to disable the aircraft prior to my escape attempt by pulling the starter and ignition CBs, then chipping at the collars to make sure they can't be reset.

I'm sure my employer would rather have me do that than watch an airplane full of passengers comandeered and taken off by a hijacker/pilot. No need and no time to destroy the entire CB panel and the bus behind it. It's a life and death matter and my emergency authority covers that decision. You do what you want on your airplane.

Also, not all airliners are new, with electronic fire handles. Some older handles will actually pull out a foot or two of cable as they mechanically close the pneumatic, fuel and hydraulic shutoff valves. Good luck in trying to push them back in. Most evacuation checklists call for pulling the fire handles, anyway.

So take your head out of your hands and think it through.
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 17:17
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Watching to much hollywood?

Crew did the correct thing. Buy them beers.

Something that sprang to mind when reading this thread:

Film Passenger 57.

Hijacker to flight deck "Who's in charge here?"

PIC "I am!"

Hijacker gives PIC double tap to head

Hijacker "So, once again. Who's in charge here?"

F/O "You are".

Crap film but relevant.
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 18:27
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Has anyone considered that this may have been a test for potential hijackings in the future? There has been mention on the news of terrorists testing airport security measures my attempting to carry block cheese and dense objects through security checkpoints to see if they will be stopped. There have been numerous mentionings from cabin crew of "suspicious" persons lurking around cabins, taking pictures and asking questions.
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Old 2nd Sep 2007, 19:58
  #99 (permalink)  
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new cockpit doors

We can bla bla forever, but it looks like everybody talks about OPEN cockpit door.
Here the so called NEW post 9-11 (quite expensive) NEW cockpit doors were closed and locked . . . . .
 
Old 2nd Sep 2007, 20:57
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Rainboe, just from an engineer's point of view:
If you have something resembling a flat screwdriver bit, you can easily remove the quarter turn fasteners on the modules on the overhead panel and e.g. take the one for the start switches, fuel pumps or the electrics panel with you. It won't take you one minute to take them out, since the connectors on the back are usually cannon plug types and I doubt you'll get the engines started or the plane moving without boost pumps, electrics or e.g. hydraulics.
Years ago in TXL we had a F/O of the now extinct Turkish Holiday airlines, who got himself into an argument with his captain over some grievance. When the captain didn't look for a moment, this F/O removed the module with the start switches, put it in his bag and walked out. Eventually, after several hours, he dumped it in the airport police station, but he had effectively disabled the aircraft (by then the captain was out of hours and they were waiting for a new F/O to flown in from Turkey)

Edited for typos

Last edited by MD11Engineer; 2nd Sep 2007 at 21:16.
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