View Poll Results: Should the pilots of the hijacked a/c be criticised for disabling it by abandoning it
I AM a professional pilot and they SHOULD NOT be criticised
430
55.70%
I AM a professional pilot and they SHOULD be criticised
31
4.02%
I AM NOT a professional pilot and they SHOULD NOT be criticised
279
36.14%
I AM NOT an professional pilot ad they SHOULD be criticised
16
2.07%
I have no opinion one way or another
16
2.07%
Voters: 772. This poll is closed
Atlas Jet Hijack
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"The two hijackers, who are reported to be speaking Arabic, wanted the plane to fly to Tehran."
A subtle, but poignant question/observation I have regarding this statement would be, why Arabic speaking and wanting to fly to Tehran (different mob!)
My first concern is they speak Farsi in Iran and secondly they would need to speak Turkish if they are on an internal flight in Turkey wanting to go somewhere special....
Either the media sc*ew*d the pooch on their nationality reporting, or the hijackers were completely confused as to where they were from and where they really wanted to go....
A subtle, but poignant question/observation I have regarding this statement would be, why Arabic speaking and wanting to fly to Tehran (different mob!)
My first concern is they speak Farsi in Iran and secondly they would need to speak Turkish if they are on an internal flight in Turkey wanting to go somewhere special....
Either the media sc*ew*d the pooch on their nationality reporting, or the hijackers were completely confused as to where they were from and where they really wanted to go....
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Atlasjet MD-83 Hijack : Tail Cone exit
Hey Guys , I am currently a Flight Purser rated on the MD-90. Note that when the passengers escaped from the tailcone exit the slide didn't inflate. The curious thing is if :
The Crew or the passengers opened the tailcone exit ? 99% it was opened with the emergency red lever and the slide failed to inflate in this case the crew failed to inflate the slide manually which could have easily caused injuries to the passengers while they where escaping .
Luckily this hijack turned up to be a complete flop for the hijackers.
The Crew or the passengers opened the tailcone exit ? 99% it was opened with the emergency red lever and the slide failed to inflate in this case the crew failed to inflate the slide manually which could have easily caused injuries to the passengers while they where escaping .
Luckily this hijack turned up to be a complete flop for the hijackers.
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Hijack?
These "hijackers" have NOT been able to get into the cockpit!
Therefore it was NOT a hijack, or certainly not a successful one.
The BBC were reporting with words like: "The Hijackers took control of the aircraft" which is absolute crap and the "pilot in charge" and "the pilot (1) has lost control of the aircraft" for a while!!!!
In future I'll be listening to Al Jazeera for facts, not the idiotic uninformed/uninformative BBC to$$ers.
Therefore it was NOT a hijack, or certainly not a successful one.
The BBC were reporting with words like: "The Hijackers took control of the aircraft" which is absolute crap and the "pilot in charge" and "the pilot (1) has lost control of the aircraft" for a while!!!!
In future I'll be listening to Al Jazeera for facts, not the idiotic uninformed/uninformative BBC to$$ers.
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bigbluecar,
You have a point about he word hijack, however they have not hijacked the aircraft, more like unsuccessfully affected it's trajectory somewhat.
If I was the captain I would also have diverted, in order to get rid of the risk, however the "hijack" did not succeed, therefore I would call them a pair of unsuccessful wannabie hijackers, with a capital 'W' and a very small 'h'.
It's like after 9/11 the media started referring to the hijackers as "pilots" which really p****d me right off, as they were hijackers, not pilots!
moist
You have a point about he word hijack, however they have not hijacked the aircraft, more like unsuccessfully affected it's trajectory somewhat.
If I was the captain I would also have diverted, in order to get rid of the risk, however the "hijack" did not succeed, therefore I would call them a pair of unsuccessful wannabie hijackers, with a capital 'W' and a very small 'h'.
It's like after 9/11 the media started referring to the hijackers as "pilots" which really p****d me right off, as they were hijackers, not pilots!
moist
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Media
I followed other reports in Turkey (where we spend our holidays). Didn't understand all they where saying but asked the barman to translate.
Appearently there has been a discussion about the pilots leaving the aircraft and people said it's not right - but a spokesman from the Turkish ALPA answered that 'an airplane without pilots can't fly...'
On CNN Turk a speaker called on of the pax in the airplane on her cell phone and seriously asked her to give the phone to one of the hijackers...
to ask them what they want. I find that un believable !
She than asked the pax to at least talk to one of the CCMs...if these guys where serious think of what could have happend to the pax or crew.
How far can they go for a good story?
A day later it has been reported that they only carried a package of playing daugh not any explosives - but who could tell ?
Looking at the tail slide - it sure didn't inflate the way it supposed to and I saw pax falling out that exit rather than using the slide.
Good thing is though that nothing really happend.
Appearently there has been a discussion about the pilots leaving the aircraft and people said it's not right - but a spokesman from the Turkish ALPA answered that 'an airplane without pilots can't fly...'
On CNN Turk a speaker called on of the pax in the airplane on her cell phone and seriously asked her to give the phone to one of the hijackers...
to ask them what they want. I find that un believable !She than asked the pax to at least talk to one of the CCMs...if these guys where serious think of what could have happend to the pax or crew.
How far can they go for a good story?
A day later it has been reported that they only carried a package of playing daugh not any explosives - but who could tell ?
Looking at the tail slide - it sure didn't inflate the way it supposed to and I saw pax falling out that exit rather than using the slide.
Good thing is though that nothing really happend.
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There is a difference between quoting the complete wrong aircraft compared to all this absolute nonsense about which airline it belongs to.....it had AtlasJet all across the aircraft....end of.
Being pedantic isn't a good quality
Being pedantic isn't a good quality
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Ladies and Gentelman, your captain has left the aircraft, Good Luck you r on your own
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/a...?enewsid=81334
Hijacked plane brings about debate over pilots
Monday, August 20, 2007
ISTANBUL - Turkish Daily News
The hijacking of the Atlasjet Airlines plane, from Lefkoşe in Cyprus to Istanbul, on Saturday morning spurred much debate over the pilots' conduct. Some argue that the pilots' jumping out of the cockpit window, leaving behind the hijackers, the passengers, and the other crewmembers to be wrong and risky, while others argue it was a good way to prevent a disaster in the Antalya Airport.
“We know the captains are the last to leave ship, but we did not know there was a ‘rule' that pilots should be the first to leave plane,” wrote Fikret Bila quite sarcastically in his column in yesterday's Milliyet daily. He labels the pilots' conduct a “scandal.”
Bila pointed out that passengers trust pilots to handle difficult situations and to solve problems. “It is hard to find a believable explanation for the pilots to leave a hijacked plane first, let alone just any plane,” wrote Bila.
Another columnist to agree with Bila was Güntay Şimşek, who handled the same issue in yesterday's daily Sabah. Şimşek cites the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and the Tokyo Convention Act Rules to judge the manner of the pilots' abandoning the plane as “totally wrong.” He pointed out that the conventions show the pilot as the foremost authority in case of a hijacking. “Yet, the foremost authority in this case abandoned the plane from the cockpit window,” read Şimşek's article. He added, “The Directorate General of Civil Aviation, the Turkish Airline Pilots Association (TALPA), and the administrators at Atlasjet Airlines have erred in trying to protect the pilots.”
Aydın Kızıltan, chief executive of Worldfocus, the company that leased the plane to Atlasjet, does not agree with either Bila or Şimşek. He said that the pilots left the plane through the cockpit window to prevent the hijackers from forcing them to fly the plane and shut off the power. “It should not be forgotten that the mode of hijacking airplanes has changed after the Sept. 11 events. Today, planes are hijacked not to accomplish what the hijackers want but to be used as weapons. Our pilots prevented a possible disaster by not opening the door of the cockpit and by abandoning the plane,” said Kızıltan.
The two hijackers have been identified as Mehmet Reşat Özlü, 27, and Mommen Abdul Aziz Talikh, 25. Their interrogation continues at the Antalya Police Department. Any possible links between the two men and organized groups is also being investigated.
Hijacked plane brings about debate over pilots
Monday, August 20, 2007
ISTANBUL - Turkish Daily News
The hijacking of the Atlasjet Airlines plane, from Lefkoşe in Cyprus to Istanbul, on Saturday morning spurred much debate over the pilots' conduct. Some argue that the pilots' jumping out of the cockpit window, leaving behind the hijackers, the passengers, and the other crewmembers to be wrong and risky, while others argue it was a good way to prevent a disaster in the Antalya Airport.
“We know the captains are the last to leave ship, but we did not know there was a ‘rule' that pilots should be the first to leave plane,” wrote Fikret Bila quite sarcastically in his column in yesterday's Milliyet daily. He labels the pilots' conduct a “scandal.”
Bila pointed out that passengers trust pilots to handle difficult situations and to solve problems. “It is hard to find a believable explanation for the pilots to leave a hijacked plane first, let alone just any plane,” wrote Bila.
Another columnist to agree with Bila was Güntay Şimşek, who handled the same issue in yesterday's daily Sabah. Şimşek cites the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and the Tokyo Convention Act Rules to judge the manner of the pilots' abandoning the plane as “totally wrong.” He pointed out that the conventions show the pilot as the foremost authority in case of a hijacking. “Yet, the foremost authority in this case abandoned the plane from the cockpit window,” read Şimşek's article. He added, “The Directorate General of Civil Aviation, the Turkish Airline Pilots Association (TALPA), and the administrators at Atlasjet Airlines have erred in trying to protect the pilots.”
Aydın Kızıltan, chief executive of Worldfocus, the company that leased the plane to Atlasjet, does not agree with either Bila or Şimşek. He said that the pilots left the plane through the cockpit window to prevent the hijackers from forcing them to fly the plane and shut off the power. “It should not be forgotten that the mode of hijacking airplanes has changed after the Sept. 11 events. Today, planes are hijacked not to accomplish what the hijackers want but to be used as weapons. Our pilots prevented a possible disaster by not opening the door of the cockpit and by abandoning the plane,” said Kızıltan.
The two hijackers have been identified as Mehmet Reşat Özlü, 27, and Mommen Abdul Aziz Talikh, 25. Their interrogation continues at the Antalya Police Department. Any possible links between the two men and organized groups is also being investigated.
Last edited by Earl; 21st Aug 2007 at 01:11.
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Technically, hijackers fall into one of three groups:
A. Fanatic Nutcases
B. Organized Fanatic Nutcases
C. (desperate) Dumbasses.
Group B. is usually a contradiction in terms, so those who fall into it are best monitored using social techniques (=Find out who they are, and make sure they don't get on planes). Security is traditionally (and best) designed to catch A. and C, and, to be honest, there's no sense in worrying about B. unless you're a fearmongering politician. (I know, I know, try telling the TSA that).
Now, these guys without doubt fall into class C. They hijack a plane flying out of Ercan. Unless things have changed, scheduled flights to Ercan only go through countries that acknowledge the TRNC as a country (and that would be Turkey). So if they did wait before hijacking, they pretty much required the aircraft to land in Turkey. If they didn't, the flight crew would still have a convincing argument to land in Turkey first ("Rogue State B is not gonna accept flights from Rogue State A; when you hijack internationally, always do so to the more roguish state. Them's the rules. I didn't make 'em.")
And heck, if you got A. or C. on board, as the Atlas crew amply demonstrated, and has been shown in past cases, running is a pretty good option.
hell, with dumbasses like that, they're lucky they didn't end up off Madagascar.
A. Fanatic Nutcases
B. Organized Fanatic Nutcases
C. (desperate) Dumbasses.
Group B. is usually a contradiction in terms, so those who fall into it are best monitored using social techniques (=Find out who they are, and make sure they don't get on planes). Security is traditionally (and best) designed to catch A. and C, and, to be honest, there's no sense in worrying about B. unless you're a fearmongering politician. (I know, I know, try telling the TSA that).
Now, these guys without doubt fall into class C. They hijack a plane flying out of Ercan. Unless things have changed, scheduled flights to Ercan only go through countries that acknowledge the TRNC as a country (and that would be Turkey). So if they did wait before hijacking, they pretty much required the aircraft to land in Turkey. If they didn't, the flight crew would still have a convincing argument to land in Turkey first ("Rogue State B is not gonna accept flights from Rogue State A; when you hijack internationally, always do so to the more roguish state. Them's the rules. I didn't make 'em.")
And heck, if you got A. or C. on board, as the Atlas crew amply demonstrated, and has been shown in past cases, running is a pretty good option.
hell, with dumbasses like that, they're lucky they didn't end up off Madagascar.
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Should be a good discussion here about this, personaly I think that leaving a plane load of Pax and jumping out the windows was wrong.
But this is Turkey!
Think the jury is still out on this one.
Guess you are damned if you do and damned if you dont.
But after 911 I guess every case is different.
No given set of rules here, but I doubt you will ever see these actions written in the SOP"s.
But this is Turkey!
Think the jury is still out on this one.
Guess you are damned if you do and damned if you dont.
But after 911 I guess every case is different.
No given set of rules here, but I doubt you will ever see these actions written in the SOP"s.
Warning Toxic!
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Nonsense! You say the jury is still out and then deliver your verdict: "..it was a bad call, showed lack of leadership, responsibility and borderlined on cowardince"! It was exactly the right call. Who was the 'leader' to show 'leadership'? The hijackers! The pilots were just 2 more hijacked passengers. By removing themselves, they disabled the aeroplane, taking away any possibility of allowing the aeroplane to be located elsewhere where the problem must be handled again from the beginning. I cannot believe you besmirch the pilots with the word 'cowardice'! What do you know about it? The advice is to get out if you can for the above reasons. You have delivered a shoot-from-the-hip judgement and yet you obviously have received little training or advice.
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Earl, what a tosser you are.
Also ignorant to the current philosphy on handling hijacks since 9/11.
Ok so I run away. I did the right thing, it can no onger fly. You stick around , show bravery and leadership...the security forces cant follow their training as you havent followed yours. You interfer with the situation because you are confusing your flying licence with counter terrorism training. people get killed. You survive. The correct proceedures are made known to the public and you get sued until you are a pauper and villified for being a know all ******.
You clearly have not had any airline security trainingso shut the **** up
Also ignorant to the current philosphy on handling hijacks since 9/11.
Ok so I run away. I did the right thing, it can no onger fly. You stick around , show bravery and leadership...the security forces cant follow their training as you havent followed yours. You interfer with the situation because you are confusing your flying licence with counter terrorism training. people get killed. You survive. The correct proceedures are made known to the public and you get sued until you are a pauper and villified for being a know all ******.
You clearly have not had any airline security trainingso shut the **** up
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I fully agree with Rainboe. Without pilots the aircraft is going nowhere. The hijackers were unable to access the cockpit, and even if they had been able to almost certainly couldn't fly the aircraft themelves. They couldn't even prevent those who they wished to remain hostages from leaving the aircraft! 
Well done, flight crew!
Well done, flight crew!
Warning Toxic!
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I do hate this post-event 'Courts Martial' of any incident, where verdicts are delivered in Rumours and News from the hip over the pilots' behaviour! People criticise me because I apparently react adversely to such criticism and it is taken as objection to criticism of the profession. The reasons I find such damming verdicts so objectionable are:
1- 'Armchair' verdicts when in possession of few facts of the incident are meaningless.
2- Verdicts of peoples' actions delivered when not knowing current regulations or advice are baseless.
3- One has to be very careful when having the luxury of lengthy time to consider and review an incident that occurred in a flash and required instantaneous action from the participants.
4- Any such announced 'amateur' Court Martial decisions seriously besmirch the participants and their company unfairly in a public forum.
5- There is actually a person involved, the victim of amateur verdicts, suffering in an unpleasant post-event limbo, who may well be coming here to anxiously observe reaction to the incident.
This is Rumours and News, not a sounding board for loudmouths to criticise people in a public forum. So Earl, you are obviously ignorant and insufficiently trained. Would you care to edit your post again and remove unjust criticism of what are allegedly 'fellow' professionals? ie- extract yourself from 'between the camel toes', retract and wind your neck in!
And a hint- try and show a bit more professionalism in your sad profile! It's a bit of an insult to your fellow professionals here.
Stick to the cargo mate!
1- 'Armchair' verdicts when in possession of few facts of the incident are meaningless.
2- Verdicts of peoples' actions delivered when not knowing current regulations or advice are baseless.
3- One has to be very careful when having the luxury of lengthy time to consider and review an incident that occurred in a flash and required instantaneous action from the participants.
4- Any such announced 'amateur' Court Martial decisions seriously besmirch the participants and their company unfairly in a public forum.
5- There is actually a person involved, the victim of amateur verdicts, suffering in an unpleasant post-event limbo, who may well be coming here to anxiously observe reaction to the incident.
This is Rumours and News, not a sounding board for loudmouths to criticise people in a public forum. So Earl, you are obviously ignorant and insufficiently trained. Would you care to edit your post again and remove unjust criticism of what are allegedly 'fellow' professionals? ie- extract yourself from 'between the camel toes', retract and wind your neck in!
And a hint- try and show a bit more professionalism in your sad profile! It's a bit of an insult to your fellow professionals here.
.....Second cargo never complains about delays, temperature, or some flight attendant they had a problem with.
Flew cargo before, back to Pax now, cargo was much better.
But rule number one with pax, never marry the flight attendant, the women they put on the freighter to handle the horses are a much better option, ha ha.
Hope this helps.
Flew cargo before, back to Pax now, cargo was much better.
But rule number one with pax, never marry the flight attendant, the women they put on the freighter to handle the horses are a much better option, ha ha.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Rainboe; 21st Aug 2007 at 10:29.
Warning Toxic!
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Maybe one can expect pig-ignorant columnists to publicise personal verdicts like they do- they have the power and the medium to spread their decision on the matter, if not any knowledge about the whole matter (we're used to that from journalists!), but it's not on for other pilots to criticise these pilots as well for doing exactly the right thing by taking away the tool the hijackers could use to fly the aeroplane and prolong the agony unnecessarily.
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So easy to have hindsight isn't it Earl?? Say the bomb was real and these pricks decide to blow themselves and the plane up with whoever else is left on board....you die a hero?
Some good the crash axe was in your hands ready to take on the world!
Wait for the report before any more speculation or criticism.
Some good the crash axe was in your hands ready to take on the world!
Wait for the report before any more speculation or criticism.
Fly Conventional Gear
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Why is that whenever someone goes against the prevailing opinion in this forum everyone jumps down their throat?
It's OK surely to tell people they are wrong but there is no need for so many people to simply repeat what others have said in putting people down. I'm just a PPL but I don't need hindsight explained to me and neither does a 747 pilot.
It's OK surely to tell people they are wrong but there is no need for so many people to simply repeat what others have said in putting people down. I'm just a PPL but I don't need hindsight explained to me and neither does a 747 pilot.