Changes to CAP371
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Changes to CAP371
You may or may not be interested, that there is several proposed amendments to CAP 371.
Having a chat with our CAA audit team, they advised that the following proposals have been made.
1. Rolling duty hour limits, i.e. 55 hours in 7 consecutive days etc rather than 55 hours in 1 week. Ditto with days off, minimum of 7 days off in 28 consecutive days.
2. When away from base a duty starting between 0600-0659 local time, is classed as an early.
3. When operating out of Europe, i.e. +1 hour difference, the first duty starting out of Europe, the fdp limits, etc are based on the UK local time, not local time at place of departure. For example a 0700 Local start in Europe will need to be classed as a 0600 local start. The audit guys were not 100% sure on this rule.
I was led to believe a consultation paper would be issued to the industry in the near future. The guys stated the main reason for the proposed changes was due to several CHIRP reports on fatigue and the scientists at Farnborough, NASA etc have recommended the above changes.
Having a chat with our CAA audit team, they advised that the following proposals have been made.
1. Rolling duty hour limits, i.e. 55 hours in 7 consecutive days etc rather than 55 hours in 1 week. Ditto with days off, minimum of 7 days off in 28 consecutive days.
2. When away from base a duty starting between 0600-0659 local time, is classed as an early.
3. When operating out of Europe, i.e. +1 hour difference, the first duty starting out of Europe, the fdp limits, etc are based on the UK local time, not local time at place of departure. For example a 0700 Local start in Europe will need to be classed as a 0600 local start. The audit guys were not 100% sure on this rule.
I was led to believe a consultation paper would be issued to the industry in the near future. The guys stated the main reason for the proposed changes was due to several CHIRP reports on fatigue and the scientists at Farnborough, NASA etc have recommended the above changes.
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1. About bl00dy time!! The dreaded CAA "week" has been the cause of many distorted rosters!
2. Sensible.
3. Don't see how (or why) - assuming that the new duty is after night-stopping with full rest?
(Edited for typo)
[This message has been edited by DouglasDigby (edited 28 June 2001).]
2. Sensible.
3. Don't see how (or why) - assuming that the new duty is after night-stopping with full rest?
(Edited for typo)
[This message has been edited by DouglasDigby (edited 28 June 2001).]
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There are few things that make jump for joy in the airline industry but this is one of them. I hope the proposals go ahead soon. I DARE any airline executive to object to these necessary amendments on grounds of cost. 'But its not fair: we'll have to recruit more pilots'.
The next big accident might be fatigue related. A first stage in the error chain might be prevented my this amendment.
It is heartening to know that CHIRP may produce tangible benefits to the passengers. Also that the regulatory authorities take note of the research produced by the team at DERA.
Safety first, profit second.
[This message has been edited by Wig Wag (edited 29 June 2001).]
The next big accident might be fatigue related. A first stage in the error chain might be prevented my this amendment.
It is heartening to know that CHIRP may produce tangible benefits to the passengers. Also that the regulatory authorities take note of the research produced by the team at DERA.
Safety first, profit second.
[This message has been edited by Wig Wag (edited 29 June 2001).]
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Ref item 2, this only applies if the normal journey time from the accommodation to the airport is less than 15 minutes. How many people actually live within 15 mins of the reporting point at base, especially at LGW / LHR / MAN. Travel from car park to reporting point exceeds 15 mins most days.
Item 3 will work both ways. If you check in overseas at 0630 local then yr FDP wil lbe based on 0530 local, i.e. 2 hours less. However, if you check in overseas at 2230 local then yr FDP will be based on 2130 local, i.e. 1 hour more.
Duty and day off totals on a rolling period basis is fair enough. The roster week dates from the days when flying was done Mon-Fri with weekends off. It is going to make an impact on some of the charter cariers though
Item 3 will work both ways. If you check in overseas at 0630 local then yr FDP wil lbe based on 0530 local, i.e. 2 hours less. However, if you check in overseas at 2230 local then yr FDP will be based on 2130 local, i.e. 1 hour more.
Duty and day off totals on a rolling period basis is fair enough. The roster week dates from the days when flying was done Mon-Fri with weekends off. It is going to make an impact on some of the charter cariers though
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Tilli,
There is NO reduction in days off, the proposed change is to remove the 'weekly' limits and introduce rolling limits, such as is already done with flying hours.
It may be that your Company FTL scheme sets higher limits than those in CAP371.
HalesandPace,
Yes you are right, what I am talking about is a PROPOSED amendment to CAP371, which will take it to the fourth edition. The CAA also plan to incorporate NTAOCHs 6/94 and 3/96 into CAP371. The CAA apparently have to consult the industry before making any major amendments.
There is NO reduction in days off, the proposed change is to remove the 'weekly' limits and introduce rolling limits, such as is already done with flying hours.
It may be that your Company FTL scheme sets higher limits than those in CAP371.
HalesandPace,
Yes you are right, what I am talking about is a PROPOSED amendment to CAP371, which will take it to the fourth edition. The CAA also plan to incorporate NTAOCHs 6/94 and 3/96 into CAP371. The CAA apparently have to consult the industry before making any major amendments.
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I'm absolutely astonished ;that the CAA would even consider a change that would benefit us!
If this is the case then the whole Chirp "feedback " system needs a pat on the back. I (and many of my colleagues) felt it was a hopeless cause.
Lets hope the airline (company) lobby doesn't ruin this proposal.
It always annoys me that airlines spend such massive sums (both time and money) on flipping CRM training when the REAL likely cause of accidents/incidents (I'm talking UK operated aircraft here)is fatigue.
If this is the case then the whole Chirp "feedback " system needs a pat on the back. I (and many of my colleagues) felt it was a hopeless cause.
Lets hope the airline (company) lobby doesn't ruin this proposal.
It always annoys me that airlines spend such massive sums (both time and money) on flipping CRM training when the REAL likely cause of accidents/incidents (I'm talking UK operated aircraft here)is fatigue.
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The only change to come out recently FODCOM 9/2001 issued 20june01 relates to 'cabin attendant' being called 'cabin crew'. Now there's a major change.
Within the same communication is the suggestion of amending CAP360 to detail the training requirements for flight operations officers and dispatchers employed by the operator.
Within the same communication is the suggestion of amending CAP360 to detail the training requirements for flight operations officers and dispatchers employed by the operator.
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For years the BALPA flight time limitations committee have been tying to get the "roster week" replaced by a rolling seven days. The CAA have been unwilling to make a move as the JAR FTLs were due to arrive shortly. Perhaps this is an admission that any sane JAA version of an FTL scheme is just pie in the sky. The various drafts that I have seen are a recipe for fatigue driven disaster.
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CAP371 The avoidence of fatigue in Aircrew
If only (a small proportion?) of crews used it to plan their rest...................
Lost track of the number of aircrew on a Sat night that phone up at 0200, 5 hrs before report, on the third of 5 earlies.....
'any canges, on the early XXX in the morning!!!!!!!
Yep it is your own time, and yep you might have slept all afternoon and just got up, coz that's your sleep pattern on earlies, but It's gotta cut both ways.
A lot of crews do not use the rest available at the moment, will aircrew fatigue be reduced????????
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Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle
If only (a small proportion?) of crews used it to plan their rest...................
Lost track of the number of aircrew on a Sat night that phone up at 0200, 5 hrs before report, on the third of 5 earlies.....
'any canges, on the early XXX in the morning!!!!!!!
Yep it is your own time, and yep you might have slept all afternoon and just got up, coz that's your sleep pattern on earlies, but It's gotta cut both ways.
A lot of crews do not use the rest available at the moment, will aircrew fatigue be reduced????????
------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle
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Bored Counter,
Just a couple of quick question,
Do you work a mix of day and night Shifts ?
Do you have problems sleeping and waking when your roster says you should?
I do.
Edited due to fatigue induced errors!
[This message has been edited by Dagger-D (edited 29 June 2001).]
Just a couple of quick question,
Do you work a mix of day and night Shifts ?
Do you have problems sleeping and waking when your roster says you should?
I do.
Edited due to fatigue induced errors!
[This message has been edited by Dagger-D (edited 29 June 2001).]
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Dagger D
Oooops, hope you don't think I was having a go, I wasn't honest.
Yes is the answer to Days/Nights, and no, I have never been able to sleep on demand.
Just cannot see how the changes will reduce fatigue.
It may increase the number of crews smaller carriers require, in particular doing away with local time FDP starting from the continent. Good news for any unemployed Aircrew, and not against it in anyway, but the fares will have to go up....
In moving the early start time away from base to be in line with base, may just be counter productive. Smaller, tighter crewed outfits, may be forced into rostering E/L blocks of duties, inducing sleep probs.
Just input, nothing more, Fatigue must be taken seriusly, I include it in the only target we must achieve 100% on....SAFTEY
It could just be penalising responsible carriers.
Fly safe
Bored
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Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle
Oooops, hope you don't think I was having a go, I wasn't honest.
Yes is the answer to Days/Nights, and no, I have never been able to sleep on demand.
Just cannot see how the changes will reduce fatigue.
It may increase the number of crews smaller carriers require, in particular doing away with local time FDP starting from the continent. Good news for any unemployed Aircrew, and not against it in anyway, but the fares will have to go up....
In moving the early start time away from base to be in line with base, may just be counter productive. Smaller, tighter crewed outfits, may be forced into rostering E/L blocks of duties, inducing sleep probs.
Just input, nothing more, Fatigue must be taken seriusly, I include it in the only target we must achieve 100% on....SAFTEY
It could just be penalising responsible carriers.
Fly safe
Bored
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Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle
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Personally I think the rolling week has been long overdue. The 'local time' of start will work both ways depending on the start of FDP.
However I have to agree with Boredcounter. At the end of the day it dosn't much matter what the rules say, if the rest earned is not used properly.
YS
However I have to agree with Boredcounter. At the end of the day it dosn't much matter what the rules say, if the rest earned is not used properly.
YS
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"Rest" periods are a useless concept. What is needed is an acceptance of the way the human body works, and tailoring the way a roster is laid out so that people are not asked to try to sleep in the middle of their body clock's day, or ask them to perform to the best of their ability when their system is convinced that it's 04:00.
Aircrew will always be awake a few hours before due to report for an early if their roster does not allow them to adjust their systems appropriately. If they are unable to sleep when they need to, to throw accusations of irresponsibility at them of misuse of a rest period is to blind oneself to the responsibility that the roster organiser has.
Aircrew will always be awake a few hours before due to report for an early if their roster does not allow them to adjust their systems appropriately. If they are unable to sleep when they need to, to throw accusations of irresponsibility at them of misuse of a rest period is to blind oneself to the responsibility that the roster organiser has.
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Must say I find myself, somewhat surprisingly, with Hugmonster on this issue. I would also add that the suggestion, apparently originating at NASA and referred to in another thread, that flight crew should take short naps is in my mind equally laughable. It is difficult to sleep in flight as a passenger. I am quite certain that I would never be able to nap while at the controls.