Wrong RWY landing ??? In this day and age ???
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Originally Posted by 320capt.
Just the other day landing into Delhi, ATIS said runway 09 for arrival, the area control started vectors saying "vectors for RWY 09". Finally when i get the final vector am told cleared for ILS 10..
This is back to my original point. What happens is we get a little too used to having all the decisions made for us and following every instruction a little too slavishly. I am always hearing people "ask" to deviate around weather - if they say no will you fly through it (you generically, not directed at you 320capt)? I always tell ATC I am deviating for weather and, if appropriate, give them a couple of options on which way. It comes back to applying a slightly sceptical/cynical view to all information we receive from whatever source and when the "disagree" light flashes in our head to question what is going on. As I wrote earlier, stop - trap - mitigate ... preferably in that order.
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I was mowing the lawn one Sunday morning at my house in Llantwit Major situated about a mile from the RAF St Athan runway threshold, and about 6 miles from Cardiff International Airport at Rhoose.
Oh, I thought, that sounds BIG and CLOSE, looked up, and sure enough, a 747, legs down and seconds from contact on Saints strip. Knowing that Saints ATC was not usually manned on a Sunday, whist Rhoose was, I mused silently about how they would eventually get rid of the aircraft after landing, as I watched it disappear beyond the rooflines. (I'm not sure that Saints strip would have the capacity)
A couple of moments later an enormous roar filled the sky and in the distance the rear end of the 74 could be seen as he blasted skyward! I had a little chuckle wondering what had been said on the flight deck. I think it would have certainly concentrated the FO's mind if he'd have had his hands on the controls at the time. If it had been the Capt, he would of course be "just testing"!
More to the point, was it tea break time at ATC Cardiff International??
Oh, I thought, that sounds BIG and CLOSE, looked up, and sure enough, a 747, legs down and seconds from contact on Saints strip. Knowing that Saints ATC was not usually manned on a Sunday, whist Rhoose was, I mused silently about how they would eventually get rid of the aircraft after landing, as I watched it disappear beyond the rooflines. (I'm not sure that Saints strip would have the capacity)
A couple of moments later an enormous roar filled the sky and in the distance the rear end of the 74 could be seen as he blasted skyward! I had a little chuckle wondering what had been said on the flight deck. I think it would have certainly concentrated the FO's mind if he'd have had his hands on the controls at the time. If it had been the Capt, he would of course be "just testing"!
More to the point, was it tea break time at ATC Cardiff International??
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As a controller, over the last thirty years or so I have seen many things, that shouldn't have, happen because of an error - made by a human - somewhere in the system. These errors have resulted in two aircraft landing on the wrong runway and a good many events which could have resulted in the same. I'd like to think that my actions have sometimes averted errors of this nature occurring on occasions - for those familiar with Jim Reason's Swiss cheese model, plugging a hole in one of the barriers.
I am not fool enough to claim that I have never made an error. Indeed one error led to a serious incident - in retrospect, it's obvious what I should have done, at the time however, my decision process appeared logical and justified. Fortunately on that occasion someone else spotted what was going on and was able to resolve the problem before anyone came to grief. And that's how our system works. We have comprehensive procedures to follow, we train, we do competence checks, we report incidents so that others can be made aware of potential pitfalls, all these more than many other industries - but we can all stuff up.....because we're human. Anyone who claims otherwise frightens me!
We - everyone working professionally in aviation - should be continually alert for errors and to query anything that does not seem right - or does not fit the picture. And not only must we be ready to point out errors that others may have made but we must be prepared for someone else to point out an error that we may have made. In this way we can mitigate some of the hazards that us humans inevitably introduce into everything we do. We won't catch everything and that why things still go wrong.....but we can plug some of the holes in the cheese.
And, hopefully, people will stop reducing a complex convergence of often independent events to someone taking a tea break!
(rant over - I'm off to watch Dr Who)
I am not fool enough to claim that I have never made an error. Indeed one error led to a serious incident - in retrospect, it's obvious what I should have done, at the time however, my decision process appeared logical and justified. Fortunately on that occasion someone else spotted what was going on and was able to resolve the problem before anyone came to grief. And that's how our system works. We have comprehensive procedures to follow, we train, we do competence checks, we report incidents so that others can be made aware of potential pitfalls, all these more than many other industries - but we can all stuff up.....because we're human. Anyone who claims otherwise frightens me!
We - everyone working professionally in aviation - should be continually alert for errors and to query anything that does not seem right - or does not fit the picture. And not only must we be ready to point out errors that others may have made but we must be prepared for someone else to point out an error that we may have made. In this way we can mitigate some of the hazards that us humans inevitably introduce into everything we do. We won't catch everything and that why things still go wrong.....but we can plug some of the holes in the cheese.
And, hopefully, people will stop reducing a complex convergence of often independent events to someone taking a tea break!
(rant over - I'm off to watch Dr Who)
Last edited by Spitoon; 24th Jun 2007 at 13:33. Reason: spilling
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That's why the South Harrow gasometer now bears a large NO↑ and the Southall one an equal sized LH↑.
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Dec,9 2000
Marv Poland was plowing snow at tiny Iosco County Airport
Friday when he saw what looked like a dark cloud to his side.
Glancing, a DC-8 loomed into focus - bearing down, all 70 tons, wanting to
share Poland's runway.
"I got out of the way," said Poland, airport manager. "We have low
approaches often, but they usually power back up when they see the airport.
This is the first time one of these big birds has landed."
Shoe-horning might better describe the BAX Global jet's 10 a.m. landing. The
DC-8 pilot mistook the East Tawas airport for the Oscoda-Wurtsmith Airport -
the former Wurtsmith Air Force Base - eight miles to the north. He was
heading there for maintenance at Triad International Maintenance Co., an
aircraft repair company on the former base.
However, rather than landing his jet hulk on Wurtsmith's 300-foot wide
runway, the pilot squeezed into Iosco's 4,800-foot long and 100-foot wide
runway. On Friday, the DC-8s outboard engines, much less its 142-foot wing
span, extended will beyond the Iosco runway lights.
"It used every inch of runway space to land here," Poland said. "He did a
good job landing. Right in the center of the runway."
Local private pilots gathered at the Iosco Airport Friday to marvel at the
cargo plane pilot's feat. Poland estimated he landed with 800 feet of runway
to spare.
They hoped, too, to see the big bird take-off.
It wasn't to be. As darkness neared and managers still awaited a new flight
crew and a Federal Aviation Administration waiver to fly the plane out, they
postponed takeoff until 10 a.m. today.
That means a return to duty for 15 East Tawas Fire Department members and a
half dozen fire and rescue trucks - should something go wrong today. It also
means re-evacuating a home and two hunting camps that lie off the runway's
end, emergency crews said.
That's because the DC-8 needs at least 3,500 feet of runway to take off.
Iosco's 4,800-foot runway is ample, but only if all goes well. If not, the
airfield leaves no stopping room for a jet that size, airport managers said.
"Put it this way, if I had to do either, I'd rather land the plane than
take-off from here," Poland said.
The pilot who landed the DC-8 may disagree. He appeared abashed at his
landing error Friday.
"Everybody left the poor pilot alone," said Bill Deckett, East Tawas Fire
Chief and a private pilot. "We gave him his space. He was so embarrassed."
Yet in truth, the pilot had little to guide him, area flyers say. DC-8s are
designed to be radar-controlled, but the radar that once guided pilots to
the former Wurtsmith Air Force Base was dismantled when the base closed in
1993. That means all aircraft, big or small, fly by the same "visual" flight
rules. The pilot's eye only must pick the right runway, area flyers say.
To complicate matters, Friday's DC-8 pilot was talking by radio to
Oscoda-Wurtsmith Airport officials as he made his approach to the East Tawas
airfield. Oscoda flight controllers told him they had plow trucks on the
runway - just as the pilot spotted Poland's snowplow. Then, just after the
pilot told controllers to "clear the plows," Poland exited the runway.
"It definitely added to his confusion," Deckett said.
On Friday, TIMCO crews brought in a specialized tug to push the jet back to
the runway start, in position for today's takeoff. Workers planned to
dismantle runway lights early today so the jet's thrust didn't destroy them.
Still, the flight delay made airport managers nervous.
"There's just a thin asphalt layer out there," Poland said. "The longer they
wait the worse it could get. That plane would have sunk right in if it had
landed in the summer."
On today's frozen airfield, Iosco emergency managers say they're poised,
fingers crossed, for an uneventful takeoff.
Friday when he saw what looked like a dark cloud to his side.
Glancing, a DC-8 loomed into focus - bearing down, all 70 tons, wanting to
share Poland's runway.
"I got out of the way," said Poland, airport manager. "We have low
approaches often, but they usually power back up when they see the airport.
This is the first time one of these big birds has landed."
Shoe-horning might better describe the BAX Global jet's 10 a.m. landing. The
DC-8 pilot mistook the East Tawas airport for the Oscoda-Wurtsmith Airport -
the former Wurtsmith Air Force Base - eight miles to the north. He was
heading there for maintenance at Triad International Maintenance Co., an
aircraft repair company on the former base.
However, rather than landing his jet hulk on Wurtsmith's 300-foot wide
runway, the pilot squeezed into Iosco's 4,800-foot long and 100-foot wide
runway. On Friday, the DC-8s outboard engines, much less its 142-foot wing
span, extended will beyond the Iosco runway lights.
"It used every inch of runway space to land here," Poland said. "He did a
good job landing. Right in the center of the runway."
Local private pilots gathered at the Iosco Airport Friday to marvel at the
cargo plane pilot's feat. Poland estimated he landed with 800 feet of runway
to spare.
They hoped, too, to see the big bird take-off.
It wasn't to be. As darkness neared and managers still awaited a new flight
crew and a Federal Aviation Administration waiver to fly the plane out, they
postponed takeoff until 10 a.m. today.
That means a return to duty for 15 East Tawas Fire Department members and a
half dozen fire and rescue trucks - should something go wrong today. It also
means re-evacuating a home and two hunting camps that lie off the runway's
end, emergency crews said.
That's because the DC-8 needs at least 3,500 feet of runway to take off.
Iosco's 4,800-foot runway is ample, but only if all goes well. If not, the
airfield leaves no stopping room for a jet that size, airport managers said.
"Put it this way, if I had to do either, I'd rather land the plane than
take-off from here," Poland said.
The pilot who landed the DC-8 may disagree. He appeared abashed at his
landing error Friday.
"Everybody left the poor pilot alone," said Bill Deckett, East Tawas Fire
Chief and a private pilot. "We gave him his space. He was so embarrassed."
Yet in truth, the pilot had little to guide him, area flyers say. DC-8s are
designed to be radar-controlled, but the radar that once guided pilots to
the former Wurtsmith Air Force Base was dismantled when the base closed in
1993. That means all aircraft, big or small, fly by the same "visual" flight
rules. The pilot's eye only must pick the right runway, area flyers say.
To complicate matters, Friday's DC-8 pilot was talking by radio to
Oscoda-Wurtsmith Airport officials as he made his approach to the East Tawas
airfield. Oscoda flight controllers told him they had plow trucks on the
runway - just as the pilot spotted Poland's snowplow. Then, just after the
pilot told controllers to "clear the plows," Poland exited the runway.
"It definitely added to his confusion," Deckett said.
On Friday, TIMCO crews brought in a specialized tug to push the jet back to
the runway start, in position for today's takeoff. Workers planned to
dismantle runway lights early today so the jet's thrust didn't destroy them.
Still, the flight delay made airport managers nervous.
"There's just a thin asphalt layer out there," Poland said. "The longer they
wait the worse it could get. That plane would have sunk right in if it had
landed in the summer."
On today's frozen airfield, Iosco emergency managers say they're poised,
fingers crossed, for an uneventful takeoff.
In the US at some airlines, when the 'flying pilot' lines up with the correct runway during a visual approach, the 'non-flying' pilot is NOT required to state out loud "localizer active" or "glideslope active', even though these are required to be tuned, identified as the only back-up.
And when the localizer CDI is NOT seen, and no glideslope is seen coming down on the ADI? Same thing, on a visual and lined up on the WRONG runway (maybe at the wrong airport..), same problem, maybe too subtle to detect-we have no callout unless somebody notices. We are very conditioned to hear nothing on a visual approach except "gear down, flaps 25, flaps 40: landing checklist"). Nothing, except sometimes, "did he clear us to land?
Most parallel runways look identical with reduced visibility. SSALR, MALSR, ALSF I, II?
But one day, only after people die during a collision because of human mistakes and it involves passenger planes (not cargo), it will probably be put into the aircraft manuals in the SOPA section.
With the partially covered and fragmented radio calls (beeeeep 446, descend and maintain buzzzzz....contact final on 120.92 with your airspeed.....
) which are on every radio freq. at larger US airports during constant vectors and altitude/airspeed changes, even a runway change sometimes, crews are lucky to find ten seconds during which they can even identify the other pilots localizer freq
.
And when the localizer CDI is NOT seen, and no glideslope is seen coming down on the ADI? Same thing, on a visual and lined up on the WRONG runway (maybe at the wrong airport..), same problem, maybe too subtle to detect-we have no callout unless somebody notices. We are very conditioned to hear nothing on a visual approach except "gear down, flaps 25, flaps 40: landing checklist"). Nothing, except sometimes, "did he clear us to land?
Most parallel runways look identical with reduced visibility. SSALR, MALSR, ALSF I, II?
But one day, only after people die during a collision because of human mistakes and it involves passenger planes (not cargo), it will probably be put into the aircraft manuals in the SOPA section.
With the partially covered and fragmented radio calls (beeeeep 446, descend and maintain buzzzzz....contact final on 120.92 with your airspeed.....
) which are on every radio freq. at larger US airports during constant vectors and altitude/airspeed changes, even a runway change sometimes, crews are lucky to find ten seconds during which they can even identify the other pilots localizer freq.
