Where does this leave Professional Pilots ??
Tsamaya sentle
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About half a year ago I started a thread on pilot fatigue (yes, yet another one...) - a topic which is of much concern for me, as I am not a pilot but, as a pax, rely on you all to take me home safely.
Now, I vaguely remember some years ago Swissair, on long-haul flights, introduced an option for crew members to take a nap of not more than 30 minutes, about 2 hours before landing (or something that way). This was based on research findings that a short sleep of no more than 30 minutes is extremely refreshing, as opposed to a longer sleep which often leaves you in worse shape for the more stressful task of approach and landing than had you not slept at all.
I wonder did this scheme prove viable, and are there other employers who have come up with something similar to tackle fatigue? Obviously, a scheme like that would only be possible on long-haul flights.
Now, I vaguely remember some years ago Swissair, on long-haul flights, introduced an option for crew members to take a nap of not more than 30 minutes, about 2 hours before landing (or something that way). This was based on research findings that a short sleep of no more than 30 minutes is extremely refreshing, as opposed to a longer sleep which often leaves you in worse shape for the more stressful task of approach and landing than had you not slept at all.
I wonder did this scheme prove viable, and are there other employers who have come up with something similar to tackle fatigue? Obviously, a scheme like that would only be possible on long-haul flights.
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This is a concept that has been successfully adopted by some airlines over the past few years (although well used un-officially by many for many years), and is in very common use every day. Of course, those that disagree with it, or don't use it; will blow it out of the water before before you can say "put your head back!" 
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MOD in response to a transport pilots complaints about having to sleep in a tent 300mts from the end of the active runway in MCT before a 14 hour working night?.....I WILL NOT BE BLACKMAILED BY FLIGHT SAFETY! Good to know its not just us civvies eh? 
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M.Mouse - Thank you for your contribution. The two crucial words here are personal responsibility.
Arkroyal and forget try and take note. All your other red herrings melt away into nothing.
Oh, and by the way Arkroyal I have no problem with you correcting my spelling but you be a little more credible if you didn't, in the same posting, mis-spell forget as forgot!
A closing thought all you 'someone else must be to blame merchants' out there.
This site is called PPRUNE.
Quiz time - what does the first P stand for??
A pat on the back to the winner.
The collected postings of Arkroyal to the loser.
Arkroyal and forget try and take note. All your other red herrings melt away into nothing.
Oh, and by the way Arkroyal I have no problem with you correcting my spelling but you be a little more credible if you didn't, in the same posting, mis-spell forget as forgot!
A closing thought all you 'someone else must be to blame merchants' out there.
This site is called PPRUNE.
Quiz time - what does the first P stand for??
A pat on the back to the winner.
The collected postings of Arkroyal to the loser.
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PowerRanger .. So you're an Aviation Consultant. What area of aviation do you consult in?
The posts above that you so obnoxiously ignore are talking REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. _Repeat_ -- REAL ACTUAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. ie THINGS THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
The professionals that have kindly responded to your posts have used actual EXAMPLES, versus your hypothetical, spreadsheet analysed data-mined risk-asessed brainstormed moral-high-ground bull****. You can ramble on all you like, but the facts stand and at the end of the day, what matters most? Your idealistic rhetoric, or FACT.
I wish the world were fair too.
Try listening.
Wear sunscreen.
Edited for colour.
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: 150Aerobat ]
The posts above that you so obnoxiously ignore are talking REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. _Repeat_ -- REAL ACTUAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. ie THINGS THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
The professionals that have kindly responded to your posts have used actual EXAMPLES, versus your hypothetical, spreadsheet analysed data-mined risk-asessed brainstormed moral-high-ground bull****. You can ramble on all you like, but the facts stand and at the end of the day, what matters most? Your idealistic rhetoric, or FACT.
I wish the world were fair too.
Try listening.
Wear sunscreen.
Edited for colour.
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: 150Aerobat ]
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Icepack[B]. This point is probably the most important consideration. Airlines should take more responsibility of their crew but this can only be implemented effectively if all other pieces of the puzzel are available. As Mowgli states it is only possible to stop and rest if the facilities are around. There are no stopping places on the M25 or they are about 50 miles apart and who in rush hour can afford to turn off and rest with a time limit set! Some might say 'leave earlier' well I have never met anyone who has done that and foiled the M25!
It appears to be scenario where you earn money, with one hand just to throw it away on all too eager B+B's or those rather expensive Travel lodges and come home with zero profit or more commonly out of pocket.
More effective rostering which would require substantial thought processing, or relocation packages seem to be a more viable proposition economically and from an implementation point of view, than building 'The pooped pilot' services on the M25 and surrounding routes to the Airports which would not solve the problem as there will be the all too inevitable 'lets make a quick buck at someone elses expense 'mentality.
As a Pax I expect my hard earned annual holiday to be a smooth operation. I want a plane in good nick and a pilot on top form. Isn't that what I have paid for???? A certain degree of personal responsibility applies, but there is only so much an individual can do!!!!Finally, this case seems to me to have parallels with the working hours of junior Doctors which was highlighted a few years back......What was echoed then was 'this is an accident waiting to happen'....well as the old adage goes:
'What's the difference between a knackered Doctor and a .knackered Pilot?'
Answer: A Doctor kills in ones.
It appears to be scenario where you earn money, with one hand just to throw it away on all too eager B+B's or those rather expensive Travel lodges and come home with zero profit or more commonly out of pocket.
More effective rostering which would require substantial thought processing, or relocation packages seem to be a more viable proposition economically and from an implementation point of view, than building 'The pooped pilot' services on the M25 and surrounding routes to the Airports which would not solve the problem as there will be the all too inevitable 'lets make a quick buck at someone elses expense 'mentality.
As a Pax I expect my hard earned annual holiday to be a smooth operation. I want a plane in good nick and a pilot on top form. Isn't that what I have paid for???? A certain degree of personal responsibility applies, but there is only so much an individual can do!!!!Finally, this case seems to me to have parallels with the working hours of junior Doctors which was highlighted a few years back......What was echoed then was 'this is an accident waiting to happen'....well as the old adage goes:
'What's the difference between a knackered Doctor and a .knackered Pilot?'
Answer: A Doctor kills in ones.
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150Aerobat you are an amusing character.
First of all, how can you 'obnoxiously ignore' something? Isn't the adjective active, whilst the verb is passive?
You seem a little confused.
Perhaps the strain of using all those block capitals late at night was too much for you. In fact, maybe you were tired!
Perhaps you should have laid down in a darkened room, taken some tablets and waited until you felt better.
And just for the record, I don't use spreadsheets or slide rules or brain-storming techniques or any other of the bilge you listed.
What was that you said about bull****??
As for moral high ground - yeah probably you're right Aerobat150 how appalling of me to criticise those who kill people when they're tired. Momentarily, I had forgotten that there were such consumate professionals such as yourself who never make a mistake in the air. And anyway, how dare anyone who isn't a double wing master race criticise one who is.
We should all know our place right?
After all, it's only SLF down the back. Not real people with real lives.
First of all, how can you 'obnoxiously ignore' something? Isn't the adjective active, whilst the verb is passive?
You seem a little confused.
Perhaps the strain of using all those block capitals late at night was too much for you. In fact, maybe you were tired!
Perhaps you should have laid down in a darkened room, taken some tablets and waited until you felt better.
And just for the record, I don't use spreadsheets or slide rules or brain-storming techniques or any other of the bilge you listed.
What was that you said about bull****??
As for moral high ground - yeah probably you're right Aerobat150 how appalling of me to criticise those who kill people when they're tired. Momentarily, I had forgotten that there were such consumate professionals such as yourself who never make a mistake in the air. And anyway, how dare anyone who isn't a double wing master race criticise one who is.
We should all know our place right?
After all, it's only SLF down the back. Not real people with real lives.
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What a hot subject.
I live well within the one-hour travel time to LGW. I agree with most of what’s been said re the work schedule practices of most airlines.
Fact is you can’t just switch off and sleep in the day before a night standby because in my experience you are doing day flights just prior to the night flights and you have to be rested for them as well.
Doing longhaul flight and then battling the M25 is a joy that I wouldn’t wish on anyone.
I agree we all need to take responsibility for our rest, along with the companies we work for.
Since it would seem that our passengers are quite rightly concerned about our fitness to operate without adequate sleep and then drive home, I am only too happy to book myself a room. Since I am a professional pilot I’m now out of pocket and my BALPA CC will be putting in a pay adjustment claim to the Company I work for, which will no doubt pass the cost on to our passengers.
Problem solved…or not, now the fare paying public start complaining about the price hike…
I live well within the one-hour travel time to LGW. I agree with most of what’s been said re the work schedule practices of most airlines.
Fact is you can’t just switch off and sleep in the day before a night standby because in my experience you are doing day flights just prior to the night flights and you have to be rested for them as well.
Doing longhaul flight and then battling the M25 is a joy that I wouldn’t wish on anyone.
I agree we all need to take responsibility for our rest, along with the companies we work for.
Since it would seem that our passengers are quite rightly concerned about our fitness to operate without adequate sleep and then drive home, I am only too happy to book myself a room. Since I am a professional pilot I’m now out of pocket and my BALPA CC will be putting in a pay adjustment claim to the Company I work for, which will no doubt pass the cost on to our passengers.
Problem solved…or not, now the fare paying public start complaining about the price hike…
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I have been watching this thread with interest and agree with most of what has been said.
Its all very well saying "book into a B+B" but where I work I have yet to find one which will accept me "checking in" at 6am, sleeping all day and going at some point in the afternoon. Besides the fact that the price of B+Bs near the airport I work starts at around £40 per night.
I could check into a hotel, but I still have to drive there, so really my only option is an "on airport" hotel, at a cost of around £80-100 per night. I can't afford that.
When I have flown in America I found that many FBOs had bunk rooms which pilots could use for free. Usually around 4 bunks per room plus a bathroom.
Why do airports in the UK not have this facility? I don't need a posh hotel room, I would sleep anywhere (usually my car at the service station part way home). Surely it wouldn't cost BAA etc. much money to provide a handful of bunkrooms? I would be happy to pay a small amount for this, say, up to £10.
The other question to ask is why do car insurance companies load your premium when you tell them you are a pilot? What do they know that the public don't? Do they have access to a database which shows how high the risk of car accidents is to pilots? Interestingly it doesn't matter to them if you are short haul or long haul.
Also, for people who don't work in the industry, it is probably worth pointing out that most of us work "irregular" shifts - we don't have say 5 nights on, days off, 5 days on or anything as regular as that. Many of us work "as and when" which could mean flying an early morning or a day flight then a night flight. Also, like the previous example of a day flight finishing at 10pm followed by a 5pm standby. When you get home after the 10pm finish you are tired, so you go to bed sometime before midnight. You sleep until say, 6-8am. Then to get 8 hours rest in before your 5pm standby you need to go to bed again at 11am to sleep for 8 hours. Now, how is that going to happen? You are not tired, having just spent a night asleep. It is not possible to go straight back to bed and sleep for another 8 hours. And how often do we get called out? If you are not called out you can guarantee your next duty will be a day one, so do you try and nap during the day in the hope that you will be rested if you get called out or do you not sleep, and then be acclimatised for the next day flight.
Has anyone done any research on the "car journey" side of flying duties?
If not, about time someone did a survey.
Its all very well saying "book into a B+B" but where I work I have yet to find one which will accept me "checking in" at 6am, sleeping all day and going at some point in the afternoon. Besides the fact that the price of B+Bs near the airport I work starts at around £40 per night.
I could check into a hotel, but I still have to drive there, so really my only option is an "on airport" hotel, at a cost of around £80-100 per night. I can't afford that.
When I have flown in America I found that many FBOs had bunk rooms which pilots could use for free. Usually around 4 bunks per room plus a bathroom.
Why do airports in the UK not have this facility? I don't need a posh hotel room, I would sleep anywhere (usually my car at the service station part way home). Surely it wouldn't cost BAA etc. much money to provide a handful of bunkrooms? I would be happy to pay a small amount for this, say, up to £10.
The other question to ask is why do car insurance companies load your premium when you tell them you are a pilot? What do they know that the public don't? Do they have access to a database which shows how high the risk of car accidents is to pilots? Interestingly it doesn't matter to them if you are short haul or long haul.
Also, for people who don't work in the industry, it is probably worth pointing out that most of us work "irregular" shifts - we don't have say 5 nights on, days off, 5 days on or anything as regular as that. Many of us work "as and when" which could mean flying an early morning or a day flight then a night flight. Also, like the previous example of a day flight finishing at 10pm followed by a 5pm standby. When you get home after the 10pm finish you are tired, so you go to bed sometime before midnight. You sleep until say, 6-8am. Then to get 8 hours rest in before your 5pm standby you need to go to bed again at 11am to sleep for 8 hours. Now, how is that going to happen? You are not tired, having just spent a night asleep. It is not possible to go straight back to bed and sleep for another 8 hours. And how often do we get called out? If you are not called out you can guarantee your next duty will be a day one, so do you try and nap during the day in the hope that you will be rested if you get called out or do you not sleep, and then be acclimatised for the next day flight.
Has anyone done any research on the "car journey" side of flying duties?
If not, about time someone did a survey.
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At the risk of getting flamed, I had always thought that the reason car insurance was higher for pilots was that they too often prang their Ferraris while showing off to the trolley dollies?
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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"Arkroyal - you want civil discussion and that's fine by me."
Obviously it is not fine with you. Your manner, lack of perception, and mind set leave much to be desired. There is no call for your attitude to postings that raise valid points other than your own which, by the way, are not in dispute. All Arkroyal was trying to suggest is that there are other aspects to the tragic sequence of events that could be looked at. Avoiding similar situations in the future and breaking the chain is the key to safety, which indeed is what this thread is all about. Personally I find your attempt to compare with Omagh, the holecaust and the WTC distasteful and misguided. This thread has had many intelligent and valid responses to a serious problem within the industry, yours I'm afraid was not one of them. You would do well to enter your own quiz. I would gladly send you a pat on the back & Arks collective postings but I suspect you don't know the answer.
I bet you are real fun to work with your CRM skills.
Obviously it is not fine with you. Your manner, lack of perception, and mind set leave much to be desired. There is no call for your attitude to postings that raise valid points other than your own which, by the way, are not in dispute. All Arkroyal was trying to suggest is that there are other aspects to the tragic sequence of events that could be looked at. Avoiding similar situations in the future and breaking the chain is the key to safety, which indeed is what this thread is all about. Personally I find your attempt to compare with Omagh, the holecaust and the WTC distasteful and misguided. This thread has had many intelligent and valid responses to a serious problem within the industry, yours I'm afraid was not one of them. You would do well to enter your own quiz. I would gladly send you a pat on the back & Arks collective postings but I suspect you don't know the answer.
I bet you are real fun to work with your CRM skills.
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Greek God - interesting name. It proves at least that you have a sense of humour!
Strange that you should imply that I am being less than civilised and then begin your posting with a string of insults.
Lets put aside that hypocrisy for a minute.
Quite frankly, it is neither here nor there to me that you find anything I say distasteful. I'm not interested.
But I ought to say that I found Arkroyal's attempt to blame the road engineers, the navvies and the railway engineers for the deaths of 10 men equally distasteful and offensive.
Also, I care not about your judgement on my postings. If you don't like it don't read it - simple. Again, you insult me in order to make the point that I am not civilised.
You really are very mixed up.
Finally, the answer to my quiz was Professional.
I'll take the pat on the back.
You can keep the collected works of Ark and put them where the sun don't shine.
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: PowerRanger ]
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: PowerRanger ]
Strange that you should imply that I am being less than civilised and then begin your posting with a string of insults.
Lets put aside that hypocrisy for a minute.
Quite frankly, it is neither here nor there to me that you find anything I say distasteful. I'm not interested.
But I ought to say that I found Arkroyal's attempt to blame the road engineers, the navvies and the railway engineers for the deaths of 10 men equally distasteful and offensive.
Also, I care not about your judgement on my postings. If you don't like it don't read it - simple. Again, you insult me in order to make the point that I am not civilised.
You really are very mixed up.
Finally, the answer to my quiz was Professional.
I'll take the pat on the back.
You can keep the collected works of Ark and put them where the sun don't shine.
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: PowerRanger ]
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: PowerRanger ]
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This important thread has been (almost) ruined by Power Ranger's aggressive rantings - he makes the Guv read like Barbara Cartland. For some reason I've developed a mental picture of PR and I suspect that if he ever visits a library, which seems doubtful, the top shelf won't come easy to him.
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Well done Grandad Flyer! You have suggested an option which could really make a difference - some inexpensive beds at the airport which you can use when you need to for a tenner. Sure, it would need to be managed and sorted, but I believe it's an excellent idea, and would certainly have solved the problems that I've experienced.
I like it when the debate and people's ideas here come up with something constructive, rather than the pub brawl that we often see. If I want that I can go to the pub.
Grandad's suggestion: any supporters? BAA, CAA are you reading this?
I'm off to the pub now. Cheers!
I like it when the debate and people's ideas here come up with something constructive, rather than the pub brawl that we often see. If I want that I can go to the pub.
Grandad's suggestion: any supporters? BAA, CAA are you reading this?
I'm off to the pub now. Cheers!
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Power Ranger - you are either a traffic warden or one of those Local Authority parking wardens. I doubt very much that you have any useful connection with aviation, judging by your immature postings.
ArkRoyal's input was measured and sensible. The fact is that crash-barriers on the approach side of the bridge would have prevented this terrible accident - in effect a break in the error chain. Such barriers are commonplace on much of our motorway network but for some reason were missing here.
Before paranoia gets the better of you, try wondering why everyone else on this topic thinks you're rather silly.
Changing subject slightly, it's worth reflecting on what might have happened to the driver had he exercised his right not to say anything, when cautioned by police.
Apart from telephone records showing somebody was on the phone throughout the night, there would have been very little other evidence of the driver's physical and mental state before he set off.
It wasn't the fact that he had been on the phone all night that got him convicted, it seems he was damned by his own admission that he'd not tried to get any sleep earlier in the day.
Moral of the story: when cautioned after any accident/incident, it is invariably better to remain polite and exercise your right to say nothing until you've had time to calm down and give a measured response. It's not immoral, it's our system of justice.
Power Ranger - I've just had another thought. Maybe you're a traffic policeman....
ArkRoyal's input was measured and sensible. The fact is that crash-barriers on the approach side of the bridge would have prevented this terrible accident - in effect a break in the error chain. Such barriers are commonplace on much of our motorway network but for some reason were missing here.
Before paranoia gets the better of you, try wondering why everyone else on this topic thinks you're rather silly.
Changing subject slightly, it's worth reflecting on what might have happened to the driver had he exercised his right not to say anything, when cautioned by police.
Apart from telephone records showing somebody was on the phone throughout the night, there would have been very little other evidence of the driver's physical and mental state before he set off.
It wasn't the fact that he had been on the phone all night that got him convicted, it seems he was damned by his own admission that he'd not tried to get any sleep earlier in the day.
Moral of the story: when cautioned after any accident/incident, it is invariably better to remain polite and exercise your right to say nothing until you've had time to calm down and give a measured response. It's not immoral, it's our system of justice.
Power Ranger - I've just had another thought. Maybe you're a traffic policeman....
I only read part of the first page of this excellent topic. Very late over here.
Do you guys/gals have a small, fairly quiet room near where you leave your flight bags, in which some comfy chairs or sofas are available?
In the US, our NTSB finally admitted several years ago that fatigue was the main cause of a tragic accident in which a cargo DC-8 crew had been up a very long time and crashed (cartwheeled) while trying to land in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba which has a hazardous, (required) close-in turn to final approach, in oreder to avoid off-limits areas. Don't no whether any of them fully recovered. They were with some branch of Connie Kallitta freight ops, based at Ypsilanti at Willow Run Airport (YIP), by Detroit, MI, coincidentally, where many B-24s (featured in Stephen Ambrose' latest, "the Wild Blue") were built in the 40's.
This is much easier said than done, but if one is really beat, declare crew rest and tell the hotel desk no telephone calls until...if your license and future career are in jeopardy.
A TWA crew (pilots and flt att's) once endured a rock band which trashed rooms all night long in a Wichita Hotel, then got off the trip after the first (early) leg into the hub at STL. The young hotel valet dude had earlier hidden the band members in some room, right when the police showed up.
[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
Do you guys/gals have a small, fairly quiet room near where you leave your flight bags, in which some comfy chairs or sofas are available?
In the US, our NTSB finally admitted several years ago that fatigue was the main cause of a tragic accident in which a cargo DC-8 crew had been up a very long time and crashed (cartwheeled) while trying to land in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba which has a hazardous, (required) close-in turn to final approach, in oreder to avoid off-limits areas. Don't no whether any of them fully recovered. They were with some branch of Connie Kallitta freight ops, based at Ypsilanti at Willow Run Airport (YIP), by Detroit, MI, coincidentally, where many B-24s (featured in Stephen Ambrose' latest, "the Wild Blue") were built in the 40's.
This is much easier said than done, but if one is really beat, declare crew rest and tell the hotel desk no telephone calls until...if your license and future career are in jeopardy.
A TWA crew (pilots and flt att's) once endured a rock band which trashed rooms all night long in a Wichita Hotel, then got off the trip after the first (early) leg into the hub at STL. The young hotel valet dude had earlier hidden the band members in some room, right when the police showed up.
[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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Power Ranger reading this thread seems like you've got the wrong end of the stick old boy. Absolutely no-one has condoned Hart's actions merely looked at the situation as a whole.Arkroyals comments seem valid to me, if Hart had fallen asleep and driven into a tree injuring himself only would we be having this discussion No!If the DETR had put crash barrier along that section of road would we be having this discussion No!! And yet the problem still exists. Hundreds of people in our industry (and other industries) pilots cabin crew and others work long tiring work patterns and usually drive home knowing that we are absolutey ******ed (I've done so many times) does that make us all iresponsible. That is whole picture so please power ranger try and discuss sensibly .
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Sorry forgot to add usually just before we drive home after what could've been a period of over 24hrs awake we have to land an aeroplane full of REAL people in crap weather. So please power ranger keep your comments questioning the professionalism of pilots to yourself!!!
[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: Budvar ]
[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: Budvar ]
Budvar,
"...usually drive home knowing we are absolutely ******ed...does that make us all irresponsible?"
The answer is, quite simply, Yes!
I'm afraid that if you wipe someone out on the M3 in the early hours on the way home the fact that you couldn't afford to buy a house near LGW or LHR would be no defence. Even weaker would be the admission that, because you are longhaul and don't go to work that often, you decided to live in Somerset as the lifestyle is better.
The beak would simply ask why, if you were absolutely *****ed when you landed, you didn't crash out in one of the many airport hotels. Again, "I couldn't afford it Your Honour" would be no defence.
"...usually drive home knowing we are absolutely ******ed...does that make us all irresponsible?"
The answer is, quite simply, Yes!
I'm afraid that if you wipe someone out on the M3 in the early hours on the way home the fact that you couldn't afford to buy a house near LGW or LHR would be no defence. Even weaker would be the admission that, because you are longhaul and don't go to work that often, you decided to live in Somerset as the lifestyle is better.
The beak would simply ask why, if you were absolutely *****ed when you landed, you didn't crash out in one of the many airport hotels. Again, "I couldn't afford it Your Honour" would be no defence.
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1.3Vstall, forgive me if I’m wrong but I think you‘re missing the point. Just working normal airline rosters will get you into the driving while too tired category. (Not to mention flying) I’m sure most professional pilots will agree with me. As stated in an earlier post I live within the one-hour drive to work rule.
The old CAP 371 rules were designed as a maximum legal limit and not intended as a normal work pattern. The various airlines, being commercial companies found ways of getting you to work as close to those limits as possible. The new JAA rules are even worse.
I have reported fatigued and got an interview with my manager for my trouble. He even agreed with me that the roster was “not ideal” but told me to go sick in future (No reports generated that way)
From my vantage point at the bottom of this particular pond, it would seem that the CAA are very keen not to look into this. The Ops inspectors only fly with a select few Captains and get fed the company line. I have no proof, but I bet 90% of the pilots reading this can tell you the same.
The only reason for posting this is that no one can prove who I am, but since my cards have already been marked, I suppose it won’t make any difference anyway.
I have never understood the difference between a mistake made due to fatigue or a mistake made due to tiredness.
The trouble is, is that as individuals we’re powerless to stop this if we want to have any sort of career. Unless the industry gets a push by political pressure or public insistence, then I don’t see things changing until we have a major incident.
The old CAP 371 rules were designed as a maximum legal limit and not intended as a normal work pattern. The various airlines, being commercial companies found ways of getting you to work as close to those limits as possible. The new JAA rules are even worse.
I have reported fatigued and got an interview with my manager for my trouble. He even agreed with me that the roster was “not ideal” but told me to go sick in future (No reports generated that way)
From my vantage point at the bottom of this particular pond, it would seem that the CAA are very keen not to look into this. The Ops inspectors only fly with a select few Captains and get fed the company line. I have no proof, but I bet 90% of the pilots reading this can tell you the same.
The only reason for posting this is that no one can prove who I am, but since my cards have already been marked, I suppose it won’t make any difference anyway.
I have never understood the difference between a mistake made due to fatigue or a mistake made due to tiredness.
The trouble is, is that as individuals we’re powerless to stop this if we want to have any sort of career. Unless the industry gets a push by political pressure or public insistence, then I don’t see things changing until we have a major incident.