Pax cockpit access - are there rules?
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I think you will find that it is mostly the UK and US registered airlines and aircraft that have a complete ban. Most other authorities have differing levels of restriction. My company allows staff, and also friends or family, if acompanied by staff member, to jump seat travel. pax visits to the flight deck are only allowed on the ground, pre and post flight. all at captains discretion. (Major european carrier)
Most other countries can also even trust the crew with such things as a bottle of water!
Most other countries can also even trust the crew with such things as a bottle of water!
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Thanks Kurtz. Facts, not emotions, was what I was originally asking for, and though they don't necessarily relate to Thailand, your contribution helps me understand some of the official views of the industry.
I find some of the mild abuse and brush-offs to my story quite amusing, particulary those who think that passengers like myself are being nosey by concerning ourselves with what's going on up front.
As I see it, it's us nosey SLF who are more likely to assist Cabin Crew if ever then is another 9/11 attempt, heaven forbid, and when a sign on a door clearly says "Crew Only" it means just that, to us. After all, the sign isn't placed on a cockpit door for the benefit of the crew, is it?! None of us like the many layers of security being imposed on us but we recognise that it's in our best interests, until we see it being applied in a discretionary manner.
Most people I know take an interest these days in that door being opened, and who's going through it. And as we're the ones paying the bills I think we have an absolute right to have some interest in our safety and to raise questions when something is obviously in doubt (such as civilians walking through a "Crew Only" door).
That's not to say we think we're experts and are casting doubt on the Captain's authority or ability; but if I have passengers in my car and they are concerned at the speed I'm driving at, they too have a right to comment, don't you think?
Having said that, I realise that most contributors to this forum are passionate professionals, for whom I have utmost respect, and I completely understand the views expressed about the desire to have visitors in the cockpit just like the old days. Now, I'll take my leave and go back to being a silent observer.
I find some of the mild abuse and brush-offs to my story quite amusing, particulary those who think that passengers like myself are being nosey by concerning ourselves with what's going on up front.
As I see it, it's us nosey SLF who are more likely to assist Cabin Crew if ever then is another 9/11 attempt, heaven forbid, and when a sign on a door clearly says "Crew Only" it means just that, to us. After all, the sign isn't placed on a cockpit door for the benefit of the crew, is it?! None of us like the many layers of security being imposed on us but we recognise that it's in our best interests, until we see it being applied in a discretionary manner.
Most people I know take an interest these days in that door being opened, and who's going through it. And as we're the ones paying the bills I think we have an absolute right to have some interest in our safety and to raise questions when something is obviously in doubt (such as civilians walking through a "Crew Only" door).
That's not to say we think we're experts and are casting doubt on the Captain's authority or ability; but if I have passengers in my car and they are concerned at the speed I'm driving at, they too have a right to comment, don't you think?
Having said that, I realise that most contributors to this forum are passionate professionals, for whom I have utmost respect, and I completely understand the views expressed about the desire to have visitors in the cockpit just like the old days. Now, I'll take my leave and go back to being a silent observer.
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I've always found that if you ask a hostie to page the f/d, ask if any pilots post on Pprune, one can get certain advantages. Try it. Doesn't always work, BA flight, the skipper had the desire to thump me (from past post) Thank God for the f/d door security.
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Good evening,
For me, this is one major issue (not mentionned yet i think).
This author wrote 5 people in 734 cockpit...
As far as i know, there aren't enough jumpseats and oxygen masks in a 73S flight deck.
So, for me, yes it's definitely irresponsible, regarding his children's heath !
Cheers
For me, this is one major issue (not mentionned yet i think).
This author wrote 5 people in 734 cockpit...
As far as i know, there aren't enough jumpseats and oxygen masks in a 73S flight deck.
So, for me, yes it's definitely irresponsible, regarding his children's heath !
Cheers
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how can cargo boy blame the americans?
why blame the yanks for what the UK and other european CAAs legislated? and yes i am a yank. not by choice though. no one asked me where i wanted to be born. but i didn't have anything to do with your country's reaction to 9/11.
and a bit off the subject, but do you want to discuss your ATP test system and why we have to pay through the nose every 5 years to get a small book long licence!!!
who are you going to blame that on?
our company employees on blue tickets and their co-traveler can sit in the flight deck where i currently fly-UK based. anyone on my blue ticket-family, etc-can sit in the flight deck.
and a bit off the subject, but do you want to discuss your ATP test system and why we have to pay through the nose every 5 years to get a small book long licence!!!
who are you going to blame that on?
our company employees on blue tickets and their co-traveler can sit in the flight deck where i currently fly-UK based. anyone on my blue ticket-family, etc-can sit in the flight deck.
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Mr takemehome: you wouldn't be the gentleman who wrote in after a flight with our airline to report that the cabin crew hadn't asked him to confirm the identity of his bag in the overhead locker on a transit turnaround, as they are required to do by the DfT, are you??
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takemehome - you were neither the pilot, nor in receipt of the full facts & rules. Raising a valid concern is fine, but we can't be jumped-up if there is no reason to be so.
I spent whole flights in the flight deck as a fascinated pre-teen in the 80s until an adult pre-9/11 - if I were ever a distraction I would have been asked to leave. Fact is that it is not your decision to make, and the professionals in front will know if and when to make such a decision.
Is flight deck access restricted in Thai-registered aircraft? I don't know, but if the rules are the same as UK/US, clearly they are acting inappropriately.
I don't think it is appropriate for you to raise such suspicion and type someone's real name if you don't know the exact rules yourself.
I spent whole flights in the flight deck as a fascinated pre-teen in the 80s until an adult pre-9/11 - if I were ever a distraction I would have been asked to leave. Fact is that it is not your decision to make, and the professionals in front will know if and when to make such a decision.
Is flight deck access restricted in Thai-registered aircraft? I don't know, but if the rules are the same as UK/US, clearly they are acting inappropriately.
I don't think it is appropriate for you to raise such suspicion and type someone's real name if you don't know the exact rules yourself.
And the problem is???????????????????????
So is a kid a terro threat.... or is he carrying a little bottle of water..... jesus wots in the comic.
Come on if we cant take kids in the cockpit......had mine there quite regular from young age to now 18, shes now doing atp studies, u wanna let terros win??
To me paxs do and can go sooo overboard. Time to let kids in again me thinks along with the nice mums ha ha.
Id never have bothered with being interested in this job/career/nightmare/ wotever only for a transasian B707 skip who let me in jumpseat at 12 to agp and montana B707 capt who taught me the radio on way back.... Learned lots, was 12 and i would luv to do same again other way around.
Cant see a locked door policy would actually do nething. ..........It just gets in the way of alienation, loada b&****()() if u ask me
So is a kid a terro threat.... or is he carrying a little bottle of water..... jesus wots in the comic.
Come on if we cant take kids in the cockpit......had mine there quite regular from young age to now 18, shes now doing atp studies, u wanna let terros win??
To me paxs do and can go sooo overboard. Time to let kids in again me thinks along with the nice mums ha ha.
Id never have bothered with being interested in this job/career/nightmare/ wotever only for a transasian B707 skip who let me in jumpseat at 12 to agp and montana B707 capt who taught me the radio on way back.... Learned lots, was 12 and i would luv to do same again other way around.
Cant see a locked door policy would actually do nething. ..........It just gets in the way of alienation, loada b&****()() if u ask me
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The good old days
Speaking as a SLF
1. Sitting on in the flight deck whilst doing the checker board approach into Kai Tak
2. Being up on the flight deck of a BA744 from WSSS to YSSY for 3 hours over the outback, whilst Capt and FO explained to me what all the different systems did and showing just how computerised it was
3. Being on the flightdeck of an Air France F28 landing into Toulouse
4. Kendall Airways Saab 340, they used the jump seat to carry an extra pax from Melbourne to Devonport....being handed a set of DC headsets and allowed to listen on the 1hour flight
5. Sat on the flight deck of a BA742 from San Francisco to Heathrow, extra special because the plane was named after my home city..."City of Peterborough"
6. Flying on numerous Britannia 732s and visiting the flight deck whilst getting the capts signiture in your young flyers log book
7. Being allowed to visit a Dan-Air 727 flight deck (i believe the Capts name was Rolf Harris?)
Magical memories from my childhood/teen years, just a shame we now live in a society that promotes fear, and knowing that my children (when i have them) will never be able to experiance what i did
Speaking as a SLF
1. Sitting on in the flight deck whilst doing the checker board approach into Kai Tak
2. Being up on the flight deck of a BA744 from WSSS to YSSY for 3 hours over the outback, whilst Capt and FO explained to me what all the different systems did and showing just how computerised it was
3. Being on the flightdeck of an Air France F28 landing into Toulouse
4. Kendall Airways Saab 340, they used the jump seat to carry an extra pax from Melbourne to Devonport....being handed a set of DC headsets and allowed to listen on the 1hour flight
5. Sat on the flight deck of a BA742 from San Francisco to Heathrow, extra special because the plane was named after my home city..."City of Peterborough"
6. Flying on numerous Britannia 732s and visiting the flight deck whilst getting the capts signiture in your young flyers log book
7. Being allowed to visit a Dan-Air 727 flight deck (i believe the Capts name was Rolf Harris?)
Magical memories from my childhood/teen years, just a shame we now live in a society that promotes fear, and knowing that my children (when i have them) will never be able to experiance what i did
A previous poster raised a significant point.
Under Thai Civil aviation rules are visits to the flight deck allowed ?
There may be no prohibition.
In any case, who does this ignorant ****** think he is, questioning the Captains authority.
I think that HE presented more of a security issue than a visit to the flight deck by family members.
As another poster mentioned, do we let the terrorists win and live in whimpering fear ?
Ridiculous, the Captain had every right to bring anyone he liked onto HIS flight deck and good on him for bringing those youngsters up, I'll bet they enjoyed every minute.
Like many other posters, my first real exposure to this business was in the jumpseat of a Cathay Pacific 707 behind my father around SE asia, and later in the amazing L1011.
It sparked an interest in aviation that has never dwindled.
I am a Captain for a major US airline now, flying the 757 /767 and despise the idiotic rules we have to put up with, invented by ignorant bureaucrats, but thats the way it goes, here in the 'land of the free'
I am glad to hear there are those still allowed to use discretion in the world of aviation.
'take me home' You might like to think of yourself as a do-gooder aviation policeman, but what you really displayed was unbelievable arrogance, ignorance and an attitude, that if diplayed in my aircraft would have resulted in you being removed from the aircraft.
Under Thai Civil aviation rules are visits to the flight deck allowed ?
There may be no prohibition.
In any case, who does this ignorant ****** think he is, questioning the Captains authority.
I think that HE presented more of a security issue than a visit to the flight deck by family members.
As another poster mentioned, do we let the terrorists win and live in whimpering fear ?
Ridiculous, the Captain had every right to bring anyone he liked onto HIS flight deck and good on him for bringing those youngsters up, I'll bet they enjoyed every minute.
Like many other posters, my first real exposure to this business was in the jumpseat of a Cathay Pacific 707 behind my father around SE asia, and later in the amazing L1011.
It sparked an interest in aviation that has never dwindled.
I am a Captain for a major US airline now, flying the 757 /767 and despise the idiotic rules we have to put up with, invented by ignorant bureaucrats, but thats the way it goes, here in the 'land of the free'
I am glad to hear there are those still allowed to use discretion in the world of aviation.
'take me home' You might like to think of yourself as a do-gooder aviation policeman, but what you really displayed was unbelievable arrogance, ignorance and an attitude, that if diplayed in my aircraft would have resulted in you being removed from the aircraft.
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Takemehome
I asked once nicely and you haven't done anything, so i will ask again. It is unfair to have the name and position of the person involved on a public forum
. PLEASE REMOVE his name and appointment from your first post.
Mods please note
Thank you
I asked once nicely and you haven't done anything, so i will ask again. It is unfair to have the name and position of the person involved on a public forum
. PLEASE REMOVE his name and appointment from your first post.Mods please note
Thank you
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<<Erm, you're both actually incorrect, (ie WRONG) and probably in breach of DfT direction 21, which is very specific.>>
Sorry, Kurtz, you are quite mistaken.
The areas in which I operate, and the registration/AOC operated under absolutely DO allow the Captain to decide, DfT direction 21, nothwithstanding.
Some might be surprised to learn that the airline world does not begin and end with the United Kingdom.
Sorry, Kurtz, you are quite mistaken.
The areas in which I operate, and the registration/AOC operated under absolutely DO allow the Captain to decide, DfT direction 21, nothwithstanding.
Some might be surprised to learn that the airline world does not begin and end with the United Kingdom.
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Takemehome: "I told him straight out that I thought he'd acted irresponsibly,"
If i had it my way, idiots like you would be on a no-fly list as being, next to terrorists, the next greatest threat to an airplane. What is your knowledge, expertise or experience to decide that he acted irresponsibly? CNN? BBC? You buy a ticket which entitles you to a seat to get taken from A-to-B. You do not get entitlement to question how someone else - who does have that expertise - does it. Don't like it? Swim/bike or walk there yourself.
If i had it my way, idiots like you would be on a no-fly list as being, next to terrorists, the next greatest threat to an airplane. What is your knowledge, expertise or experience to decide that he acted irresponsibly? CNN? BBC? You buy a ticket which entitles you to a seat to get taken from A-to-B. You do not get entitlement to question how someone else - who does have that expertise - does it. Don't like it? Swim/bike or walk there yourself.
PPRuNe supporter
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I am glad to hear there are those still allowed to use discretion in the world of aviation.
'take me home' You might like to think of yourself as a do-gooder aviation policeman, but what you really displayed was unbelievable arrogance, ignorance and an attitude, that if diplayed in my aircraft would have resulted in you being removed from the aircraft
'take me home' You might like to think of yourself as a do-gooder aviation policeman, but what you really displayed was unbelievable arrogance, ignorance and an attitude, that if diplayed in my aircraft would have resulted in you being removed from the aircraft
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The US has had a sterile flight deck policy for decades. It didn't prevent four hijacks in one day in 2001. Lack of security on the ground let those blokes (and there were NINETEEN of them) get on.
Much of the civilised world, on the other hand, didn't have such blanket rules prior to September 2001 and we managed to operate safely up to, on and after that date.
There are still some places where it's allowed - just ask the cabin crew chief nicely when you step aboard, explain your link to aviation and if it's not banned by the airline's country, in my experience crew pretty much always pass the request onto the Boss and let him/her make the call.
As it should be.
Much of the civilised world, on the other hand, didn't have such blanket rules prior to September 2001 and we managed to operate safely up to, on and after that date.
There are still some places where it's allowed - just ask the cabin crew chief nicely when you step aboard, explain your link to aviation and if it's not banned by the airline's country, in my experience crew pretty much always pass the request onto the Boss and let him/her make the call.
As it should be.
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Gengis I couldn't agree more.
Takemehome you sum up everything that is wrong with commercial aviation and unfortunatly this website too..Too many nosey do gooder passengers who don't have a clue what they are talking about (exept what they have learned on flight sim of course) thinking that they know it all.Do the professionals a favor (for whome this website was designed for originally)and p@ss off and leave us to do our jobs in peace ....We are capable and we are trying not to kill you so sit back ,read the Daily Mail and mind your own buisness!!!!!!
P.S. Kurtz get a life your post sent me to sleep try and read something other than a manual from time to time!!!!!!!!!!
Takemehome you sum up everything that is wrong with commercial aviation and unfortunatly this website too..Too many nosey do gooder passengers who don't have a clue what they are talking about (exept what they have learned on flight sim of course) thinking that they know it all.Do the professionals a favor (for whome this website was designed for originally)and p@ss off and leave us to do our jobs in peace ....We are capable and we are trying not to kill you so sit back ,read the Daily Mail and mind your own buisness!!!!!!
P.S. Kurtz get a life your post sent me to sleep try and read something other than a manual from time to time!!!!!!!!!!
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Hello!
> fat_jimmy: We are capable and we are trying not to kill you so sit back ,
> read the Daily Mail and mind your own buisness!!!!!!
Or better: Come up front and have a litte chat with us in the cockpit
(which, in the case of the aircraft that I fly isn't separated from the cabin anyway - according to the theory of the thread opener we probably shouldn't be allowed to fly at all...)
Greeting, Max
NB: Lateley, I've done mostly express freight and really miss chatting with the guests, the stupid boxes won't talk to me!
> fat_jimmy: We are capable and we are trying not to kill you so sit back ,
> read the Daily Mail and mind your own buisness!!!!!!
Or better: Come up front and have a litte chat with us in the cockpit
(which, in the case of the aircraft that I fly isn't separated from the cabin anyway - according to the theory of the thread opener we probably shouldn't be allowed to fly at all...)
Greeting, Max
NB: Lateley, I've done mostly express freight and really miss chatting with the guests, the stupid boxes won't talk to me!
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Jimmy,
Chill pill old son. You might also like to reflect that this website generally tries to respect a bit of decorum.
Takemehome's original question was a fair one. Whilst I think most posters in the thread disagree with him "taking affairs into his own hands" here, it's also reasonable to argue that interested punters can be a help: if the lady who noticed the cracks when boarding the Aloha 737 had piped up, the Maui Convertible might not have flown; if an interested punter had voiced concern about ice on the wings, the Air Florida 737 might not have crashed at Reagan National; since Sep. '01, there have been a few wound-up miscreants detained (at least in part) by other punters in-flight.
The art, my friend, may lie in being able to determine if someone is doing something which is actually dangerous to flight safety (eg. running towards the FD) and not (such as calmly being ushered into the FD with one's children). Some of us have that ability, some of us do not, but these days I'd prefer to err on the cautious side. Who knows if that non-flying pilot had the same things in mind as some other RPT pilots have been believed to have had in recent years? I agree that TMH's views don't count at all in the operation of the flight, but he's entitled to his views and to put them to the PIC. Were I the PIC in that situation, I'd have replied that when I sign the maint release, it's my a/c and within the law, on board my word IS law and that whilst I appreciate having vigilant passengers aboard, I knew the guy, appraised the situation from a flight-safety aspect and decided on an appropriate course of action.
Blasting away with such invective does nought to further your argument, mate. As SLF, I know that the pilot cannot have his/her own eyes over all of the airframe, so if I see something I consider amiss, I will share my thoughts with the crew. Just like you would, if you (for example) saw a light not working on a mate's car. I would expect cabin crew to pass my comments to the FD - there have been crashes where such information didn't reach the FD, with catastrophic results.
TMH simply asked what the protocol is. The answer to that question is: "there is no single international proticol; it varies amongst countries and carriers. If you want to know what the situation is on your flight, ask when you board".
Chill pill old son. You might also like to reflect that this website generally tries to respect a bit of decorum.
Takemehome's original question was a fair one. Whilst I think most posters in the thread disagree with him "taking affairs into his own hands" here, it's also reasonable to argue that interested punters can be a help: if the lady who noticed the cracks when boarding the Aloha 737 had piped up, the Maui Convertible might not have flown; if an interested punter had voiced concern about ice on the wings, the Air Florida 737 might not have crashed at Reagan National; since Sep. '01, there have been a few wound-up miscreants detained (at least in part) by other punters in-flight.
The art, my friend, may lie in being able to determine if someone is doing something which is actually dangerous to flight safety (eg. running towards the FD) and not (such as calmly being ushered into the FD with one's children). Some of us have that ability, some of us do not, but these days I'd prefer to err on the cautious side. Who knows if that non-flying pilot had the same things in mind as some other RPT pilots have been believed to have had in recent years? I agree that TMH's views don't count at all in the operation of the flight, but he's entitled to his views and to put them to the PIC. Were I the PIC in that situation, I'd have replied that when I sign the maint release, it's my a/c and within the law, on board my word IS law and that whilst I appreciate having vigilant passengers aboard, I knew the guy, appraised the situation from a flight-safety aspect and decided on an appropriate course of action.
Blasting away with such invective does nought to further your argument, mate. As SLF, I know that the pilot cannot have his/her own eyes over all of the airframe, so if I see something I consider amiss, I will share my thoughts with the crew. Just like you would, if you (for example) saw a light not working on a mate's car. I would expect cabin crew to pass my comments to the FD - there have been crashes where such information didn't reach the FD, with catastrophic results.
TMH simply asked what the protocol is. The answer to that question is: "there is no single international proticol; it varies amongst countries and carriers. If you want to know what the situation is on your flight, ask when you board".
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From my point of view as a humble passenger and desperate wannabee, I was recently allowed into the cockpit of a 737 after it had landed at Malaga. IŽd been back to UK to check out flight schools for myself and my daughter and this experience just topped off the whole weekend. WeŽre now even more passionate and, yes, desperate, to fly and should those wonderful pilots be reading this, our sincerest thanks! Next time can we come up there during landing and/or take off? Is this ever allowed these days?