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Pax cockpit access - are there rules?

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Pax cockpit access - are there rules?

Old 22nd Apr 2007, 23:30
  #21 (permalink)  
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I decide who enters the FD, and if I say 'no entry' it is enforced without fail.
OTOH, if I want a guest, he/she is allowed...period.
NO ONE tells 411A who is allowed on the FD, and THAT is the way it is...full stop.
Any questions?
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Old 22nd Apr 2007, 23:39
  #22 (permalink)  
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NO ONE tells 411A who is allowed on the FD, and THAT is the way it is...full stop.
Any questions?
Bravo. But it must be simpler when you own the airline, as you obviously do.
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Old 22nd Apr 2007, 23:59
  #23 (permalink)  

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... but he does have a point. Prior to 9/11 there were one or two 'senior managers' (non-operations) in my previous airline who thought it their absolute right to occupy the jump seat without having the courtesy to ask.

I said to one of them one day "how would you like it if I drifted into your office unannounced and sat in the corner watching everything you did and listening to all your conversations? Think that's a reasonable thing to do? - because that's precisely what you've just done here today"

He was a bit surprised - and then, to his credit, conceded the argument.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 02:39
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This thread reminds me of a certain U. S. submarine off the coast of Hawaii which was flashing by having a dozen or so civilian guests aboard during practice dives and surfacing. Some said that the guests distracted and crowded the crew and thereby may have contributed to the accident and the fatalities that resulted. Is such a distraction, even if very unlikely aboard an aircraft, worth taking the risk just to please an adult or some children who otherwise would not know the thrill they had missed? I don't know the rules re visitors to the Flight Deck, but I side with the first poster and would feel more comfortable if I could read official rules that state that an adult can take two children into an active Flight Deck with him.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 02:50
  #25 (permalink)  
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cockpit visits

Airlines want to save money..yet not willing to allow flightdeck visits to the very people who can help save millions for them.please..please allow ATCO's to visit cockpits so that it will be a win-win for both. If the crew feels it's time for the jumpseat guy to go back we are more than willing to do so but don't deprive us of the excitement of being in the cockpit for awhile. cut all the red tape and stop using 9/11 as an excuse for licensed ATCO's.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 05:38
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Flightdeck visits

I echo what was said earlier in this thread. We have become terrified of anything that does not conform to the norms now set by those we 'elect' to (supposedly) look after our interests politically.
I haven't even bothered to ask for a visit 'up front' since 9/11. Before that I was a regular visitor. I always took my PPL with me and sent it up front with one of the cabin attendants when I made my request.
I sat in the jump seat for a BA Tristar arrival at Dhahran Saudi Arabia. I did the same on Cathay Pacific for an arrival at Hong Kong Kai Tak (sadly not the checker board approach). The late Captain Harry Gee let me sit right seat in a Brymon Twotter from LHR to Newquay via Plymouth. I've seen the Alps on a crystal clear moonlit winters night and my first visit to the Maldives was up front on an Air Lanka 737 with a superb low level trip aound the islands close to Male before landing. I got the jump seat as an 'extra' passenger on the way back to Colombo too.
In every case I was made most welcome by the crew.
Now? I don't know. I don't want to ask in case I embarrass the Captain because company SOP's now deny him/her the opportunity to welcome visitors. I know it does still happen. A member of the Thai Flying Club was a recent visitor on a Thai Inter 777 flight from Shanghai to Bangkok and stayed for the landing at Suvarnabhumi. Lucky chap.
What with this and the insanity of airport security restrictions it's about time we collectively told Dubya to stuff his War on Terror where the sun don't shine and got back to normal.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 05:57
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My friend was in the cockpits several times when he was flying with his dad (Airbus training captain for a certain major asian carrier)...so I guess family members are still allowed in.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 07:06
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In my company, we often take our friends/family on the jump for the whole flight. B737.
No problem. Security babboons often make a fus about it but hey, it is the Flight crew who decides who comes onboard and sits where and no-one else.
And yes, I fly for a Western European based carrier.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 07:24
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despegue, mate, where do you work? Do you need pilots? Where do I sign?!?!
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 11:02
  #30 (permalink)  
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but hey, it is the Flight crew who decides who comes onboard and sits where and no-one else
OK Despegue, everyone's entitled to a view, but that's a remarkable take on how an airline works. I hope you understand your own job (whatever that is) a bit better.

That aside, I have believed for 30 years that Airline Directors should either travel economy or travel in the jump seat, and for some years was in the happy position of being able to enforce it, not as a Chairman, I hasten to add, but as the petty Hitler on the ramp who frequently had to tell Directors of one of the many airlines we handled, during a transit, that their safe-from-angry-customers, cosseted 1st Class seats had been re-allocated to a last-minute customer paying the full fare. Notably, only BA Directors and Captains would normally seek - unsuccessfully - to insist on their 1st Class rights, usually loudly and right in front of passengers, but I'm sure that this probably no longer happens as realism takes hold.

Economy travel provides a very good education for non-operational Directors about the difference between their advertising and the actual product; flight deck travel, especially long-haul, is an unparalled opportunity for two-way education. Both sides can learn a hell of a lot, if they are willing and able to listen.

PS Before someone leaps to chastise me, yes, we did ask the Captain before putting a Director into the jump seat. They universally saw the opportunity for what it was, and welcomed it.

Last edited by old,not bold; 23rd Apr 2007 at 11:13.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 11:33
  #31 (permalink)  
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As a lad in the '70s I went up to the flight deck on almost every flight with my Dad, quite often we came across people that had worked with my Grandfather at Channel Airways. The last time I managed it was Britannia B767 to Cancun in '98, where I spent over an hour up there chatting to the crew (Captain was a SFO on his final check ride before becoming a full Captain)
I would love to do the same for my Kids, but I daren't even ask nowadays, they will just have to be content with the RHS of a Warrior....
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 12:32
  #32 (permalink)  
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So very sad

After reading this thread it seems that the people at the pointy end could still have time for the SLF, HOORAY.
My flying adventure started as a result of many,many hours spent travelling Australia and NZ and was ignited by an Ansett WA crew inviting me to take the jump seat in a 146 from Perth to Darwin.
I was so envious, the best view,the best seat "well not really" greatest office and they even got paid.
In the late nineties it was commonplace to be invited to the cockpit for landings and the occassional take-off, as a forty odd year old business owner doing rather well I decided to learn to fly.
Flying is a fatal attraction, you never stop learning, you never stop enjoying.
Back on track, the current rules are as stated a reaction to events which would be unlikely to arise again ,I am sure most of you would be happy to have the eight year old in the cockpit again,not much chance of him/her overpowering you is there.
Bring back the Captains discretion, it breaks the monotony of a long trip and even now I could enjoy FL39 as much as chugging around at 10,000
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 12:38
  #33 (permalink)  
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Having read your initial post and being a very frequent visitor to Thailand myself and understanding the culture completely, i really believe that the biggest distraction on the flight was you!
You were right to air your concern when the adult initially went on to the flight deck, but you were told that he was a Captain.....end of story. The kids going up would not have interferred with the landing checks, but you sending the cabin crew to inform of another complaint would have done. Rather than focusing on the job in hand, they spent the last few minutes either vocalising or thinking 'Who the f*** does he think he is, i am the Captain its my decision, i've been made to look a d***head in front of the VP etc etc etc'. To top it all, after admitting you don't know if there is a rule concerning this, you tell a repected member of the airline who comes over to you in the baggage hall and politely talks with you that you think he has behaved irresponsibly!!! I also think it a little unfair on a public forum that you identify him by name and appointment, particularly as you insinuate that he was an idiot. A bit of discretionary editing might be appropriate. You say you live in Bangkok which amazes me even more that you delt with the situation as you did. I hope you dont deal with the Thais you work with like that. Don't be suprised the next time you try to get your cheap flight with NOK the 'computer says noo'.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 12:43
  #34 (permalink)  
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On my very rare visits to the cockpit, alas unlikely to happen again, I've absolutely loved it, and for one main reason: the astonishing quality of the view. Good glass. I remember a flight down to Honk Kong, flying above an electrical storm for hours, with black sky and stars above. I've sometimes thought you could charge a couple of passengers a lot of money on a 747 if the forward locker was replaced with a seat, a curtain behind an good glass in front. I've been flying for 30 years and I still have my nose pressed against the window. I've marked changes in river course with the seasons over Siberia, had a very, very kind guy change course slightly so I could see a comet, and generally loved my time in 1A or 1J on 747s.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 12:51
  #35 (permalink)  
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My two cents worth and some drivle. Has this "security" issue not gone totally out of control - from the screening after immigration and what you can and cannot take on board to this secure flight deck issue!!

Alot of posts about impressing the youngsters but this is what happened to me.

I can remember doing a flight into Kai Tack a few years ago - well quite a few years ago - and during the cruise we had the usual load of visitors peering into the flight deck and asking the usual questions. At the back of the group was this elderly man, and as the youngsters cleared out, he came up and started asking questions to do with the IGS, the chequer (sp?) boards, the final turn. I asked if he was a pilot and he said he wasn't, but loved flying. Medically he could not be a pilot. So for his 65th birthday his wife had bought him and hour in a BA simulator (747 I think) and all he had done was "fly" the IGS into Hkg. And now here he was on a flight into Hkg, 3 months after his sim session. The inevitable question came, and I think he knew he was asking alot, but he asked if there was any way he could sit in the flight deck for landing. The FO winked at me, and the look on his face when I said yes was worth a million dollars. Never got his name, and I would think he may well be flying his 747 for the almighty, but I will always remember him.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 13:30
  #36 (permalink)  
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I suspect Despeque is a pilot for Air France who have different rules to those of British carriers.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 14:13
  #37 (permalink)  
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It's my opinion that visits to the flight deck are at the discretion of the captain, but I would take into consideration the following:

1. The crew. Obviously everyone has to be in agreement and that includes the cabin

2. The company. Most companies in the U.K. will specifically preclude anyone in the flight deck except those specifically allowed by U.K. legislation enforced by the DfT. But in our company I suspect that is to expunge themselves from responsibility if someone is caught by the authority, i.e. the DfT.

3. The DfT. This is where a good working relationship with your ground handling staff comes in useful. There's usually intelligence regarding DfT activities and it's in the interest of handling staff to have it.

4. The passengers. It's folk like Mr takemehome who believe it is their business to monitor that which isn't and could decide to report their observations to other interested partys. I suspect that is why the Vice President Flight Crew Training of Nok Air was so friendly toward our contributor in an attempt to disuade him from taking the matter any further.

I would advise employing sensible procedures such as preboarding your special guest and getting them settled in the flight deck wearing a high visibility vest and then keeping the door closed as much as possible. They can then leave when deplanning is complete or nearly complete and most passengers will be completely oblivious. Obviously this doesn't cover the ad hoc situation.

One should also be aware that should the DfT catch you red handed with unauthorised personel in the flight deck they could (I understand) seek a criminal conviction which would then (again I understand) preclude you from holding an airside pass. So be sensible, and I'll leave that to your interpretation...
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 15:16
  #38 (permalink)  
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TDK there are rules laid down by the DOT as who can travel on the jump seat.The cabin crew have no say in the matter only the Captain.This extends to jump seats in the cabin.Rest seats (for the cabin crew) are a seperate matter.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 15:53
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Danny said "

"I don't see why mil ATCO's can't have the same privileges as civilian ATCO's do. In my airline we have exchange liaison visits with the RAF where we get to have a go in one of their jets and they come with us on a long haul trip on the jump seat. It just requires a letter from the relevant person to approve the flight deck jump seat.
The same applies to civilian ATCO's who want to experience our job from the jump seat. They need to get in touch with the company and make the request. Probably has to go through your own management first though.
The more on the flight deck, the merrier, I say!"
Then 411A said
I decide who enters the FD, and if I say 'no entry' it is enforced without fail.
OTOH, if I want a guest, he/she is allowed...period.
NO ONE tells 411A who is allowed on the FD, and THAT is the way it is...full stop.
Any questions?
Erm, you're both actually incorrect, (ie WRONG) and probably in breach of DfT direction 21, which is very specific. ATCOS, Civil/mil are NOT allowed for fam flights without CAA permission. (Can anyone HONESTLY suggest anything significant which could not be explored in a sim? If it were truly an operational request regarding a specific new piece of airspace, then a request would presumably be granted by the DfT/CAA because it would genuinely be operationally required.) Mil exchange flights as described by Dan are NOT allowed - at least in the way described, (us getting jollies in a Typhoon is OK).
Airline Managers are NOT routinely allowed onto Flight Decks - for example Richard Branson was famously refused permission to do this a couple of years ago. A Captain may prohibit whomsoever he wants, but he cannot legally allow Flight Deck Occupancy without reference to the rule book, and there are very few exceptions, basically it must refer to direct operational relevance, or be crew within the airline or group positioning when there is no cabin seat available. This latter applies to management also again only when no cabin seat is available.
We may not agree with the policy, but there is no point misleading people as to its content. It applies to ALL aircraft flying within UK airspace.
For those interested, the policy is aimed at reducing the total number of occasions when the door is opened for any reason at all. hence "nice to do" visits are a complete no-no. It is not aimed at upsetting people, although I do think sometimes that the opposition to the policy stems more from a reluctance to accept that wives/kids etc can no longer get a seat when the plane is full. Blame 9/11, and accept that once politicians and civil servants take a stance on Security, it takes a lot to persuade them to reverse a judgement. Additionally, anyone who has seen 'United 93' should squirm at the moments showing the Captain decide whether or not to open the Flight Deck door, and sympathise, and wonder whether a so-called 'blanket ban' might have made a difference.
I hate it too, I hate so much of the security regs and procedures, so much of the attitude one meets....I could go on. However, times have changed, and disliking something is no alternative to making a logical as opposed to an emotive or juvenile (411A ) case against it. I would, however, have expected a better informed quotation from Danny - unless he flies outwith the ICAO signatories most of the time.

Last edited by Kurtz; 23rd Apr 2007 at 16:04.
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Old 23rd Apr 2007, 16:39
  #40 (permalink)  
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I have a very simple view on this, and it has nothing to do with your rights as a Captain - if you have any business being there, you should be allowed in a controlled fashion (covers Danny's gripe) but be very discrete about it. If you don't, buy a flightsim, get over it and stay out - a cockpit is not for satisfying the curiosity of aerosexuals, it's a place of work. I-FORD is spot-on. Every other industry has over the years tightened up completely on access for legitimate reasons, and it has nothing to do with the Twin Towers - try walking up to any factory or office and asking to go in for a wander around, and neither equate to what could happen in a cockpit. The most you get now is an "open day", and half the time it's just a video rather than see the internals for yourself.

If 9/11 hadn't happened, there would still be no access to cockpits these days, mainly for insurance reasons.
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