Your help needed: BBC News questionnaire on flying hours
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(I wanted to get out of this but i cant resist)
Yamaha, thanks for the most realistic reason so far as to why we should be PRO this issue. Great stuff.
In order ro counter your argument, I would like to point out that you have thought it through, but not far enough in my opinion....ie to its logical end. So to pick up where you left off.........
What if we wade in behind shoey and the beeb like you say, as its the best option available, what is the likely outcome.
A sensationalised program critical of uk and ireland based airlines with some tarnishing of the pilots for working within the inadequate rostering system, and thus endangering pax. THEN WHAT? the program is over. A few heads scratched at ministerial level, a letter of enquirey to the CAA. A token investigation by 3 or 4 CAA investigators with a very quick politically correct response. Which will say that everything is generally ok but thanks to the beeb we have discovered a few minor anomolies which have now been corrected. So, shoey makes a difference (as will be stated on his now fatter CV....sarcasm, sorry) and the pax are safer. GET A GRIP GUYS.
This needs a properly funded and properly direct research program (not a tv program), and not shoeys proud two months of work, so far, probably by a team of two students on gap year (stop...cynical!). The researcher is telling you that he realises from talking to pruners that the issue is about more than just flying hours
quote "From conversations with many of you, and others, I've learned that it's not just the total number of flying hours which may be a problem which needs to be addressed. Rather, it seems to be the intensity of flying hours, and hassle factors like proximity to base, roster disruption etc etc. Rest assured, this is something which will be taken into account."
Guys n gals, you know the complexity of the issues here. How can someone who makes this flippant statement be the person to lead the research into this and then present the findings to jo public WITHOUT ANY EDITORIAL RIGHTS BY YOU. I really cannot believe the naivity of some of you. This researcher is just learning to take his first steps in a playground full of mines....and if he hits one YOU get hurt.
Shoey believes he is doing good, of that im pretty certain. I can guess that from the "the cut of his jibe". But the most likely outcome of this will be negative for the industry. I accept there is a possibility that the program will collapse the current government after a wave of protests from concerned pax about air safety, not seen since the days of poll tax!! However, if you want to rely on that then maybe you should bet on shergar winning the grand national. this is a game of realism, not chance, and the ralistic hand that will be dealt will be bad.
But if the program goes ahead I will hoping for the best, and if it all goes well I will ride shergar accross the finishing line myself....
Yamaha, thanks for the most realistic reason so far as to why we should be PRO this issue. Great stuff.
In order ro counter your argument, I would like to point out that you have thought it through, but not far enough in my opinion....ie to its logical end. So to pick up where you left off.........
What if we wade in behind shoey and the beeb like you say, as its the best option available, what is the likely outcome.
A sensationalised program critical of uk and ireland based airlines with some tarnishing of the pilots for working within the inadequate rostering system, and thus endangering pax. THEN WHAT? the program is over. A few heads scratched at ministerial level, a letter of enquirey to the CAA. A token investigation by 3 or 4 CAA investigators with a very quick politically correct response. Which will say that everything is generally ok but thanks to the beeb we have discovered a few minor anomolies which have now been corrected. So, shoey makes a difference (as will be stated on his now fatter CV....sarcasm, sorry) and the pax are safer. GET A GRIP GUYS.
This needs a properly funded and properly direct research program (not a tv program), and not shoeys proud two months of work, so far, probably by a team of two students on gap year (stop...cynical!). The researcher is telling you that he realises from talking to pruners that the issue is about more than just flying hours
quote "From conversations with many of you, and others, I've learned that it's not just the total number of flying hours which may be a problem which needs to be addressed. Rather, it seems to be the intensity of flying hours, and hassle factors like proximity to base, roster disruption etc etc. Rest assured, this is something which will be taken into account."
Guys n gals, you know the complexity of the issues here. How can someone who makes this flippant statement be the person to lead the research into this and then present the findings to jo public WITHOUT ANY EDITORIAL RIGHTS BY YOU. I really cannot believe the naivity of some of you. This researcher is just learning to take his first steps in a playground full of mines....and if he hits one YOU get hurt.
Shoey believes he is doing good, of that im pretty certain. I can guess that from the "the cut of his jibe". But the most likely outcome of this will be negative for the industry. I accept there is a possibility that the program will collapse the current government after a wave of protests from concerned pax about air safety, not seen since the days of poll tax!! However, if you want to rely on that then maybe you should bet on shergar winning the grand national. this is a game of realism, not chance, and the ralistic hand that will be dealt will be bad.
But if the program goes ahead I will hoping for the best, and if it all goes well I will ride shergar accross the finishing line myself....
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Bomber is correct!!
I would go further than suggesting a couple of students on gap year by suggesting this could be made into a formal University research event, properly funded and carried out on the basis of terms of reference created by professional pilots(perhaps BALPA), the CAA, and even contributions by PPRUNE (maybe Dany). If there is a real problem caused by flying hours and/or fatigue it is too important a matter to be aired publically by a TV programme or the press as a result of sensationalism to attract viewers/readers. The results of an entirely independant research would, I am sure, be passed on to the media in a non sensational manner.
OJJ
I would go further than suggesting a couple of students on gap year by suggesting this could be made into a formal University research event, properly funded and carried out on the basis of terms of reference created by professional pilots(perhaps BALPA), the CAA, and even contributions by PPRUNE (maybe Dany). If there is a real problem caused by flying hours and/or fatigue it is too important a matter to be aired publically by a TV programme or the press as a result of sensationalism to attract viewers/readers. The results of an entirely independant research would, I am sure, be passed on to the media in a non sensational manner.
OJJ
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Bomber may be correct he may not be.
One thing is for sure:
If there is a problem, brushing it under the carpet or fooling one's self that a top level secret inquiry is about to begin will not move this issue forward.
If there is an issue, it should be dealt with openly.
If there isn't, what are we discussing here?
One thing is for sure:
If there is a problem, brushing it under the carpet or fooling one's self that a top level secret inquiry is about to begin will not move this issue forward.
If there is an issue, it should be dealt with openly.
If there isn't, what are we discussing here?
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Wind of change?
These figures suggest that the famous Ryanair rushed approaches are history.
Insofar as anything can ever be confined to the history books never to return! And of course the history was pretty recent (was it Knock or Cork that was June last year?)
See Flight's website this week:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ke-a-dive.html
Did the famous letter do the trick, or was there more to it than that?
Shortie
Insofar as anything can ever be confined to the history books never to return! And of course the history was pretty recent (was it Knock or Cork that was June last year?)
See Flight's website this week:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ke-a-dive.html
Did the famous letter do the trick, or was there more to it than that?
Shortie
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Shoey
Very happy with my work hours. Plenty of rest, and pay. Fantastic standards of aircraft maintenance, and training. Looking forward to going to work tomorrow!
Just wish the DFT would see sense and allow pilots to take their own fruit juice on the aircraft with them! Fed up with boring old water and coffee.
I know, why not research how dangerous a pilot can be with a carton of tropicana in his case?
Night, off to bed for a good night sleep.
Very happy with my work hours. Plenty of rest, and pay. Fantastic standards of aircraft maintenance, and training. Looking forward to going to work tomorrow!
Just wish the DFT would see sense and allow pilots to take their own fruit juice on the aircraft with them! Fed up with boring old water and coffee.
I know, why not research how dangerous a pilot can be with a carton of tropicana in his case?
Night, off to bed for a good night sleep.
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Aah. A Journalist who wants to love us.Used to read the Express,I know they used to have at least one experienced pilot an their staff;yet they obviously never passed any of their aviation related material across his desk,or they would not have published so much shock horror plane plunges within inches of school/mosque/church bull**** over the years. Just watching a report on BBC. Does not matter what its about;It starts with "Information received may cause concern" then comes out with rumour and "news" The Oxygen of publicity might well choke us!
I Have Control
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Pity, I have useful data to contribute, but simply do not trust the bias of BBC. (Anti-Israel, anti-American, etc). This is not to cast any doubts on Ian Shoesmith whatsoever.
What I would suggest is that Disclosure of Information should provide some interesting stats on sickness rates and reasons for, within the airlines.
What I would suggest is that Disclosure of Information should provide some interesting stats on sickness rates and reasons for, within the airlines.
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Shortie,
If Ryanair think rushed approaches are a thing of the past sadly they are mistaken. The pressure to achieve on time performance is still there. The management think that by introducing yet more procedures and more SOP's they will solve the problem. There are flight crews that are so snowed under by onerous paperwork complicated briefing procedures and challenging non precision approaches into small and ill equipped airfields dodging VFR traffic, that occasionally situational awareness breaks down. Coupled to that fatigue and a company that makes no bones about bullying its pilots to bring them into line ' just because they can' and you have the potential for ' god forbid a smoking hole in the ground' The stress that RYR puts on its pilots is maliciously manufactured by a spiteful management, new sop's being designed to cover the backsides of the management if an event happens with the words THE FLIGHT CREW DID NOT CONFORM TO COMPANY PROCEDURES so what do you expect.
Pilot management had a heaven sent opportunity to ask why the flight crews continued to press on with a potentially dangerous approach by asking the right questions. Sadly however no feedback is encouraged at all.We have a problem so here is a new SOP to solve that so it wont happen again. Rather than we have a problem lets try to find out why
If Ryanair think rushed approaches are a thing of the past sadly they are mistaken. The pressure to achieve on time performance is still there. The management think that by introducing yet more procedures and more SOP's they will solve the problem. There are flight crews that are so snowed under by onerous paperwork complicated briefing procedures and challenging non precision approaches into small and ill equipped airfields dodging VFR traffic, that occasionally situational awareness breaks down. Coupled to that fatigue and a company that makes no bones about bullying its pilots to bring them into line ' just because they can' and you have the potential for ' god forbid a smoking hole in the ground' The stress that RYR puts on its pilots is maliciously manufactured by a spiteful management, new sop's being designed to cover the backsides of the management if an event happens with the words THE FLIGHT CREW DID NOT CONFORM TO COMPANY PROCEDURES so what do you expect.
Pilot management had a heaven sent opportunity to ask why the flight crews continued to press on with a potentially dangerous approach by asking the right questions. Sadly however no feedback is encouraged at all.We have a problem so here is a new SOP to solve that so it wont happen again. Rather than we have a problem lets try to find out why
Thread Starter
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focus
Hi there
Just wanted to refocus attention on the questionnaire itself. The response rate has been pretty good - but the more replies we receive the better from a statistical point of view.
Thanks
Ian
Just wanted to refocus attention on the questionnaire itself. The response rate has been pretty good - but the more replies we receive the better from a statistical point of view.
Thanks
Ian
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In addition to LCC short haul flying, Mr. Shoesmith should compare the legacy long haul operators, when it comes to factors of fatigue, as to how they want:
To reduce the rest 48 hours to under 24 hours between crew turn arounds.
Place crews in cheaper noisier hotels that may not be as safe and secure for crewmembers as current layover hotels.
Heavy crewing of some flights so no layovers are required for the basic crew.
To reduce the rest 48 hours to under 24 hours between crew turn arounds.
Place crews in cheaper noisier hotels that may not be as safe and secure for crewmembers as current layover hotels.
Heavy crewing of some flights so no layovers are required for the basic crew.
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I am often critical of journalists, mostly because they nearly always get the story wrong in the cases I know the truth. However at least Mr Shoesmith has done the right thing, enlisted the co-operation of the people he is writing about and the expertise of Captain Fyne, to try and get it right.
I could not be accurately described as an airline pilot, or give meaningful answers to some of the questions. Otherwise I would be happy to help, to help give the most accurate programme possible.
However for balance can I ask if Mr Shoesmith has talked to the management at Easyjet, who have a flight-time limitation programme that they have devised under expert advice that is not compliant with the CAA's usual rules but is supposed to be safer? Considering some of the glaring anomalies in the rules under which I work, this might be an important addition.
I could not be accurately described as an airline pilot, or give meaningful answers to some of the questions. Otherwise I would be happy to help, to help give the most accurate programme possible.
However for balance can I ask if Mr Shoesmith has talked to the management at Easyjet, who have a flight-time limitation programme that they have devised under expert advice that is not compliant with the CAA's usual rules but is supposed to be safer? Considering some of the glaring anomalies in the rules under which I work, this might be an important addition.
Last edited by Life's a Beech; 19th Apr 2007 at 15:54.
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Let's have some balance BM
In order to restore some balance to this thread, I should like to report that in the dealings that I have had with BBC journalists in the past, they have been unfailingly determined to be objective in their reporting. I have been extremely satisfied with their skill in presenting a story in a necessarily limited time while including and explaining the salient facts and putting the story in context.
This is also true, in my direct experinece, of the 'heavy' press including the Times, Telegraph, Financial Times, Guardian and Independent.
Remember, if you are supplying the facts, you are in a very good position to make sure that those facts are accurately transmitted to, and received by, the reporter.
Regards
Stoic
This is also true, in my direct experinece, of the 'heavy' press including the Times, Telegraph, Financial Times, Guardian and Independent.
Remember, if you are supplying the facts, you are in a very good position to make sure that those facts are accurately transmitted to, and received by, the reporter.
Regards
Stoic
Last edited by Stoic; 20th Apr 2007 at 12:34. Reason: This post was in response to a post immediately before by Big Mach which has since been deleted
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Remember, if you are supplying the facts, you are in a very good position to make sure that those facts are accurately transmitted to, and received by, the reporter.
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You forgot "and understood by".
Regards
S
Last edited by Stoic; 19th Apr 2007 at 21:26.
Paxing All Over The World
I am on holiday so taken longer to catch up with this thread.
Bomber Harris
To be picky ... the method is not just to do with Mr Shoesmith. He has been given instructions by his management who pay him. You will be aware that BBC management may not be any better than your airline management ...
Yes, of course it would - but that would mean govt admitting a mistake and having to spend money. BUT if the BBC produce something of sufficient strength and veracity - it might be possible to get the properly appointed research team.
Gary Lager
Speaking as a non-pilot who spent some 27 years working in offices (and 'cube farms' just like Dilbert) I can tell you that we have the chance to dodge a lot of things, depending upon office culture, location and the boss:
Ancient Observer You state that the beeb is left wing and then quote a Murdoch newspaper to justify that? You don't get much more right wing than Murdoch so it is no proof.
Whether you like the BBC or not, this research is the ONLY game in town for the topic to get the light of day. I cannot see any other media outlet trying this one and the CAA will do nothing off their own bat, they have to be kicked by govt and govt can get kicked by the media. And this govt is more sensitive to getting kicked by the media than any other before in the UK.
Bomber Harris
Mr shoesmith is not doing independant research. He is collecting facts to support a 60 min presentation orientated at an uninformed public, the content of which has already been decided. I dont appove of his methods.
I believe a properply appointed research team conducted a review with the results directed at CAA, EASA, JAA and any other regulator you can think of!....would be far more beneficial to us as pilots than a TV "expose"
Gary Lager
then we're still looking at spending less average time at work than joe 9-5. So there must be something else at play.
- Pop out to the shops.
- Phone a friend!!
- Attend meetings that you do not really need to be at and then sit back and do little.
- Pretend to work at your desk.
- etcetera
Ancient Observer You state that the beeb is left wing and then quote a Murdoch newspaper to justify that? You don't get much more right wing than Murdoch so it is no proof.
Whether you like the BBC or not, this research is the ONLY game in town for the topic to get the light of day. I cannot see any other media outlet trying this one and the CAA will do nothing off their own bat, they have to be kicked by govt and govt can get kicked by the media. And this govt is more sensitive to getting kicked by the media than any other before in the UK.
When a journalist is trying to do an investigative story, they WILL talk to SOMEBODY. This journalist is trying to give all of you a chance to present your point of view.
Will they use it the way you want them to? Who knows. Odds are you will find something you don't like about the story no matter how well they try to write it or how balanced they try to be.
If you worry that they will leak your identity to whomever you work for, or in some other way that might get you in trouble, then do not contribute or ask if there is a way you can protect yourself.
However, if you do not try to get your side of the story out there, then do not complain about failings in aviation related journalism.
Journalists are human. If you treat them with respect they are more likely to return the favor.
Will they use it the way you want them to? Who knows. Odds are you will find something you don't like about the story no matter how well they try to write it or how balanced they try to be.
If you worry that they will leak your identity to whomever you work for, or in some other way that might get you in trouble, then do not contribute or ask if there is a way you can protect yourself.
However, if you do not try to get your side of the story out there, then do not complain about failings in aviation related journalism.
Journalists are human. If you treat them with respect they are more likely to return the favor.
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Fatigue
On point I would like to input, this from observations on lang haul ops. I have spent many, many hours deadheading/supernumerary, were on certain routes the flight deck inactivity had induced a more subtle form of fatigue called boredom. Is this a realistic observation?
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http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272330
Just look at the way the "Pilots admit they took a nap on air" artical was dealt with by the media.
Do you really believe there is there is an emphasis on air safety or selling stories?
Just look at the way the "Pilots admit they took a nap on air" artical was dealt with by the media.
Do you really believe there is there is an emphasis on air safety or selling stories?