Continental Jet Incident approaching TLV
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It's not that easy. How could you ever be sure that the "plus thousands" are actually endangered. You could as well shoot down an aircraft the moment the passengers have won back "control" and if you wait until destruction on the ground is obvious it is too late to shoot.
The matter is not that simple but the German ruling basically says that the government may not count lives against lives and then give the thumbs down to the side with the lower count.
(This specifically wouldn't apply to killing an aggressor in a hostage scenario, etc., it is just innocent lives against innocent lives that may not be weighed.)
BTW, German ALPA "VC" made a statement in court against the shooting down of airliners and hailed the verdict as a victory.
It is highly unlikely that at WTC scenario will be repeated as there are a lot more vulnerable targets around that are far less protected than aviation these days. We don't need trigger-happy politicians ordering lost-comm aircraft to be shot down.
(The decision was not taken by politicians but by judges.)
The matter is not that simple but the German ruling basically says that the government may not count lives against lives and then give the thumbs down to the side with the lower count.
(This specifically wouldn't apply to killing an aggressor in a hostage scenario, etc., it is just innocent lives against innocent lives that may not be weighed.)
BTW, German ALPA "VC" made a statement in court against the shooting down of airliners and hailed the verdict as a victory.
It is highly unlikely that at WTC scenario will be repeated as there are a lot more vulnerable targets around that are far less protected than aviation these days. We don't need trigger-happy politicians ordering lost-comm aircraft to be shot down.
(The decision was not taken by politicians but by judges.)
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Alpine Flyer,
I agree.
Trying to repeat the WTC scenario would be stupid.... there are better ways (from their point of view).... but then sometimes people ARE stupid.
But just maybe, if you saw an airliner squawking the hijack code, not answering any comm, and in a shallow dive heading for the centre of Jerusalem, maybe even you would put four Sidewinders up the tailpipes first, and ask questions afterwards?
I agree.
Trying to repeat the WTC scenario would be stupid.... there are better ways (from their point of view).... but then sometimes people ARE stupid.
But just maybe, if you saw an airliner squawking the hijack code, not answering any comm, and in a shallow dive heading for the centre of Jerusalem, maybe even you would put four Sidewinders up the tailpipes first, and ask questions afterwards?
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If this had been JFK not TLV and American fighters/
Could be related but at about 1100GMT today (13th April) flying over central France heard a transmission on 121.5 a bit like this:
"Continental Airlines 7X7 at FL 370 on (easterly heading), XXX bearing from Marseilles XX miles with Mirage 2000 on your right wing do you read?"
This was repeated a few times (showing an easterly track from Marseille) then nothing heard, assumed it was a Radio Failure.
So I suspect the Israeli Fighters were probably the last defence . Were the French and others caught with their pantaloons down?
The report should make for interesting reading
ATB,
ptc
Could be related but at about 1100GMT today (13th April) flying over central France heard a transmission on 121.5 a bit like this:
"Continental Airlines 7X7 at FL 370 on (easterly heading), XXX bearing from Marseilles XX miles with Mirage 2000 on your right wing do you read?"
This was repeated a few times (showing an easterly track from Marseille) then nothing heard, assumed it was a Radio Failure.
So I suspect the Israeli Fighters were probably the last defence . Were the French and others caught with their pantaloons down?
The report should make for interesting reading
ATB,
ptc
Last edited by peeteechase; 14th Apr 2007 at 00:09.
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It ain't over 'till it'over......
Ladies & Gents,
To begin with,this is only an open observation on what has been voiced here and this is only a point of view so please do not take any offence to this posting.....
Having read all the comments, I can honestly say that everybody should take a deep breath and stop imagining worst case scenarios!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been to TLV many times,was very recently based there for a year,flew for a "national airline" and am well versed in their security procedures and I can honestly say that they won't "shoot" down any civilian aircraft until all emergency contingency procedures have been thoroughly exhausted!!!!
For those of you looking for "sensational" CNN headlines....well....get a life!!!!
Until you have been there,done that and got the T-shirt, I suggest that y'all start by educating yourselves on aviation matters in that part of the globe and obtain some kind of insight on what specific procedures dictate for this type of situation before "transmitting blind" and save everybody from any drama!!!
I'm sure that the CO crew did everything that was required of them and the last thing they would expect was to be blown out of the sky!!!!!! Give it a rest and start worrying about world peace for example!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shalom,
RWTY
To begin with,this is only an open observation on what has been voiced here and this is only a point of view so please do not take any offence to this posting.....
Having read all the comments, I can honestly say that everybody should take a deep breath and stop imagining worst case scenarios!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been to TLV many times,was very recently based there for a year,flew for a "national airline" and am well versed in their security procedures and I can honestly say that they won't "shoot" down any civilian aircraft until all emergency contingency procedures have been thoroughly exhausted!!!!
For those of you looking for "sensational" CNN headlines....well....get a life!!!!
Until you have been there,done that and got the T-shirt, I suggest that y'all start by educating yourselves on aviation matters in that part of the globe and obtain some kind of insight on what specific procedures dictate for this type of situation before "transmitting blind" and save everybody from any drama!!!
I'm sure that the CO crew did everything that was required of them and the last thing they would expect was to be blown out of the sky!!!!!! Give it a rest and start worrying about world peace for example!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shalom,
RWTY
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I'm based in a part of the world that's marginally less tense than the TLV FIR, and if I had a beer for every time I've had to suggest to an FO that it would be a really good idea if he was to select his 121.5 RX p/b to on (and audible), I'd be a very drunk man.
Likewise, the number of times you're asked to contact some errant aircraft and Guard and he doesn't answer. I think some people in this profession have an amazing lack of imagination - although some less charitable might call it a lack of situational awareness.
Likewise, the number of times you're asked to contact some errant aircraft and Guard and he doesn't answer. I think some people in this profession have an amazing lack of imagination - although some less charitable might call it a lack of situational awareness.
Its not meant to be funny, nor to entertain you. I believe should another (especially German) target be attacked by a hijacked aircraft that the ruling will be up for discussion at the highest levels.
I don't understand why many easily dismiss the thought of another airborne attack. 9/11 was very successful, if anything too successful. It may be harder to replicate on that scale but I believe I believe the terrorists still have it in their play book.
I don't understand why many easily dismiss the thought of another airborne attack. 9/11 was very successful, if anything too successful. It may be harder to replicate on that scale but I believe I believe the terrorists still have it in their play book.
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a mistake was made somewhere...tech problems with radio, wrong freq, pilots asleep.
let's see what happened...but it seems to me that the truth would be at hand already.
nothing against CAL, but they did land on a taxiway in KEWR. To think for a second that any pilot, at any airline , couldn't foul up a freq ....hmmmm
let's see what happened...but it seems to me that the truth would be at hand already.
nothing against CAL, but they did land on a taxiway in KEWR. To think for a second that any pilot, at any airline , couldn't foul up a freq ....hmmmm
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This wasn't a Huge deal. Every time one calls for a weather briefing in New York they are told to be familiar with fighter intercept procedures. Clearly the fact that intercept procedures were known by the crew saved lives.
As for the Germans, imagine what their guards would do at a middle-eastern embassy should they see a bus doing 120kph down a city street towards their gate. Maybe the passengers would retake control at the last minute and avert disaster! No, of course not, the guards would shoot. It's the same situation in the skies.
As for the Germans, imagine what their guards would do at a middle-eastern embassy should they see a bus doing 120kph down a city street towards their gate. Maybe the passengers would retake control at the last minute and avert disaster! No, of course not, the guards would shoot. It's the same situation in the skies.
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Continental's comments and more on the incident near TLV:
All in a days work, then.
ICAO rules only provide for 121.5 and/or visual communication if on-frequency radio contact is lost. Perhaps when satellite links are more commonly used by carrier Ops, the ICAO may reconsider.
Then there are those embassies that have a quick and rather large chunk of steel that denies entry no matter who's driving the bus. 
BY RON MARSICO
Star-Ledger Staff
An Israeli official yesterday defended his country's decision to scramble military jets after a Continental flight from Newark to Tel Aviv did not contact air traffic controllers on approach, but he did not address a statement from an un named Israeli air force official that the plane was nearly shot down.
The Jerusalem Post reported that Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was alerted after the crew of Continental Flight 90, with 251 passengers aboard, failed to make required contact with controllers Wednesday. The newspaper cited a "senior air force officer" as the source.
"This was the closest we ever came to intercepting a civilian airplane," the air force source told the paper, referring to the possibility that the plane could have been destroyed.
David Saranga, the Israeli consul for media and public affairs in New York, said that sending up fighter jets to gauge potential threats in such cases "can be considered common procedure for any country," especially since 9/11.
"Naturally, we become very concerned when an incident such as this occurs," Saranga said, citing Israel's vulnerability. "Fortunately for everyone involved, the flight was able to land safely."
David Messing, a Continental spokesman, said the crew did not believe the plane was at risk of being shot down.
"The crew had clear instructions on what to do and did not feel threatened by the presence of the military aircraft," Messing said in an e-mail.
Messing said the situation "stemmed from a technical communication glitch, which is still being sorted out. Israeli aviation authorities will want to review all the communications and figure out the scenario that caused this."
Eventually, Messing said, the flight crew was able to speak with Israeli air controllers before landing.
The spokesman added that two other Continental flights have arrived in Tel Aviv without further problems since Wednesday's incident.
A spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration said his agency was not reviewing the matter.
Star-Ledger Staff
An Israeli official yesterday defended his country's decision to scramble military jets after a Continental flight from Newark to Tel Aviv did not contact air traffic controllers on approach, but he did not address a statement from an un named Israeli air force official that the plane was nearly shot down.
The Jerusalem Post reported that Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was alerted after the crew of Continental Flight 90, with 251 passengers aboard, failed to make required contact with controllers Wednesday. The newspaper cited a "senior air force officer" as the source.
"This was the closest we ever came to intercepting a civilian airplane," the air force source told the paper, referring to the possibility that the plane could have been destroyed.
David Saranga, the Israeli consul for media and public affairs in New York, said that sending up fighter jets to gauge potential threats in such cases "can be considered common procedure for any country," especially since 9/11.
"Naturally, we become very concerned when an incident such as this occurs," Saranga said, citing Israel's vulnerability. "Fortunately for everyone involved, the flight was able to land safely."
David Messing, a Continental spokesman, said the crew did not believe the plane was at risk of being shot down.
"The crew had clear instructions on what to do and did not feel threatened by the presence of the military aircraft," Messing said in an e-mail.
Messing said the situation "stemmed from a technical communication glitch, which is still being sorted out. Israeli aviation authorities will want to review all the communications and figure out the scenario that caused this."
Eventually, Messing said, the flight crew was able to speak with Israeli air controllers before landing.
The spokesman added that two other Continental flights have arrived in Tel Aviv without further problems since Wednesday's incident.
A spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration said his agency was not reviewing the matter.
Did the Israelis know to contact CO's System Ops Center and get the flight dispatcher to send an ACARs message to the crew to come up on the appropriate frequency? This would have solved the problem in a few moments. This is done all of the time with US carriers and no interceptors are launched. US Part 121 carriers are required to have a separate comm system to be able to do this. It is routine in the case of lost comms.
As for the Germans, imagine what their guards would do at a middle-eastern embassy should they see a bus doing 120kph down a city street towards their gate. Maybe the passengers would retake control at the last minute and avert disaster! No, of course not, the guards would shoot.
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vap
This was the closest we ever came to intercepting a civilian airplane," the air force source told the paper, referring to the possibility that the plane could have been destroyed.
Regards
S
ZbV
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RT
I dont care what anyone says. In Middle East, especially Nicosia, Damascus, Beirut, Amman and Tel Aviv FIR's (add Ercan to that salad) you must follow the established procedures to the letter. Additionally monitor 121.5 and 123.45. keep your WX radar on etc.
There is no excuse total utter stupidity to be in "incommunicado" unless a total equipment failure.
JJ
There is no excuse total utter stupidity to be in "incommunicado" unless a total equipment failure.
JJ
.....this should close the thread! Know where you are going and read the charts!!!!! End of story.
During the 9/11 nightmare, or the day after, a Korean widebody jet was almost destroyed because of radio confusion over or near Alaska.
Apparently at least one F-15 fighter climbed for an interception.
This happened to a Korean Air Lines flight in Soviet airspace many years ago (partly due to a military "ELINT" jet's proximity, and also to cover up a different mistake on the part of the Soviet Commander for the area) and everybody on board died.
Korean crews and passengers almost paid with their lives a SECOND time!
Apparently at least one F-15 fighter climbed for an interception.
This happened to a Korean Air Lines flight in Soviet airspace many years ago (partly due to a military "ELINT" jet's proximity, and also to cover up a different mistake on the part of the Soviet Commander for the area) and everybody on board died.
Korean crews and passengers almost paid with their lives a SECOND time!
ZbV
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Actually Ignition Override. Soviets had shot down a KAL flight once before, a B707 that managed to land on a iced over lake. Have a look for details
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_902
So this would have been the third time KAL suffers a shootdown.
JJ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_902
So this would have been the third time KAL suffers a shootdown.
JJ
