JMC 250Kts Below FL100
Guest
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Seems a daft SOP to have a blanket 250 below 10. As someone said, it is essential to keep the speed up sometimes to dive the height off with the speedbrake. On the 737 the speedbrake does nothing below 250kts. Surely its best to exceed 250 below 10 than to end up 'hot and high' with a subsequent rushed and un-stable approach?
At LHR i've done 310kts downnwind at 6000', when it was quiet! I don't keep the speed up to save time generally, as it doesn't and it just means things happen quicker. But, if ATC ask for high speed it's a good opportunity to get the height off, and help out the ATCO.
411A - isn't that what the windscreen wipers are for?
[This message has been edited by BmPilot21 (edited 24 June 2001).]
At LHR i've done 310kts downnwind at 6000', when it was quiet! I don't keep the speed up to save time generally, as it doesn't and it just means things happen quicker. But, if ATC ask for high speed it's a good opportunity to get the height off, and help out the ATCO.
411A - isn't that what the windscreen wipers are for?
[This message has been edited by BmPilot21 (edited 24 June 2001).]
Guest
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BmPilot21--
Think you are very young.....and/or an idoit!
How would you like to be in hospital with a broken leg, or worse, no head (hello coroner). Maybe in your case, it would be an improvement. Typical British arrogance. With your attitude, you can't be anything else.
Think you are very young.....and/or an idoit!
How would you like to be in hospital with a broken leg, or worse, no head (hello coroner). Maybe in your case, it would be an improvement. Typical British arrogance. With your attitude, you can't be anything else.
Guest
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AutobrakeMed
What a bloody ridiculous comment!
Do you reckon it is an SOP to be inconsiderate ?
You werent there !
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I often find that JMC often lack consideration of what is going on around them and who is doing what in front and behind them.
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I often find that JMC often lack consideration of what is going on around them and who is doing what in front and behind them.
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Do you reckon it is an SOP to be inconsiderate ?
You werent there !
Guest
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411A, typical British humour actually.
Mate, it was a JOKE!
I take the matter of bird strikes very seriously indeed. Apparantly the new generation of TCAS will be bird compatible, although only for birds large enough carry the transponder / aerial / digital processer and EFIS display, but i guess they're the ones we're all worried about anyway - a sparrow never hurt anybody.
JMC are a large UK charter airline with mostly 757 and Airbus. They were the result of a merger between Caledonian and Flying Colours. I believe JMC stands for John Michael Cook, son / grandson of Thomas Cook which is a large travel agency etc. (Braced for corrections from JMC pilots / spotters).
[This message has been edited by BmPilot21 (edited 24 June 2001).]
Mate, it was a JOKE!
I take the matter of bird strikes very seriously indeed. Apparantly the new generation of TCAS will be bird compatible, although only for birds large enough carry the transponder / aerial / digital processer and EFIS display, but i guess they're the ones we're all worried about anyway - a sparrow never hurt anybody.
JMC are a large UK charter airline with mostly 757 and Airbus. They were the result of a merger between Caledonian and Flying Colours. I believe JMC stands for John Michael Cook, son / grandson of Thomas Cook which is a large travel agency etc. (Braced for corrections from JMC pilots / spotters).
[This message has been edited by BmPilot21 (edited 24 June 2001).]
Guest
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411A,
We know about the birdstrikes at higher speeds, although a good ole´ Heathrow canada goose would also do some pretty extensive damage at 250kts, if hitting the wrong spot.
But does it then mean, that you´ll never ever fly more than 250 below FL100?
It´s not so much to do with catching up on lost time, this was, one more time, an ATC request!
We know about the birdstrikes at higher speeds, although a good ole´ Heathrow canada goose would also do some pretty extensive damage at 250kts, if hitting the wrong spot.
But does it then mean, that you´ll never ever fly more than 250 below FL100?
It´s not so much to do with catching up on lost time, this was, one more time, an ATC request!
Guest
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Expedite; Not an SOP but more of an attitude!
Going into MAH the other day we brought the speed back to 250 at about 20,000 knowing that he was in front of us, and he knew that we were behind him, and that nobosy was infront of him, but would he increase his speed? Well what do you think? Guess who ends up having to go around the hold!
I was there!
Going into MAH the other day we brought the speed back to 250 at about 20,000 knowing that he was in front of us, and he knew that we were behind him, and that nobosy was infront of him, but would he increase his speed? Well what do you think? Guess who ends up having to go around the hold!
I was there!
Guest
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Hi big guys - just a confused wannabe here.
When I took & passed my ATPL nav group exams last November the rules were quite clear.
The speed limit is 250kts IAS below FL 100 in ALL clases of airspace except Class A(no speed limit).
Anyone disagee with that?
CS
When I took & passed my ATPL nav group exams last November the rules were quite clear.
The speed limit is 250kts IAS below FL 100 in ALL clases of airspace except Class A(no speed limit).
Anyone disagee with that?
CS
Guest
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I was there, you weren't there etc etc
My dad is bigger than your dad etc etc.
Ladies and Gents, why dont we act with some dignity for Gods sake.
I am a JMCite and I guess ultimately that the decision rests with the Commander.
We aren't selfish and we do listen out on the R/T. Oh, and there are some very accommodating crews in JMC too. We would always try and help...not hinder I like to believe.
On a couple of other points:
1) I believe JMC stands for John MASON Cook, not Michael.
AND, MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY
2) We have quite a lot of FEMALE Commanders now, so why don't you mysogonist dinosaurs out there refer to that? It could well have been a lady Captain making the decisions in this instance. Oh and of course they would want to go slower wouldn't they? In order not to get scared or bump into a shopping trolley or something like that........that is of course what you would like to think!
So, stop bashing JMC for no reason. If the SOP of 250 below 10 isnt one of yours you dont need to worry about it.
My dad is bigger than your dad etc etc.
Ladies and Gents, why dont we act with some dignity for Gods sake.
I am a JMCite and I guess ultimately that the decision rests with the Commander.
We aren't selfish and we do listen out on the R/T. Oh, and there are some very accommodating crews in JMC too. We would always try and help...not hinder I like to believe.
On a couple of other points:
1) I believe JMC stands for John MASON Cook, not Michael.
AND, MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY
2) We have quite a lot of FEMALE Commanders now, so why don't you mysogonist dinosaurs out there refer to that? It could well have been a lady Captain making the decisions in this instance. Oh and of course they would want to go slower wouldn't they? In order not to get scared or bump into a shopping trolley or something like that........that is of course what you would like to think!
So, stop bashing JMC for no reason. If the SOP of 250 below 10 isnt one of yours you dont need to worry about it.
There's nothing wrong with 250 <10 - unless you wish to break (US Pitch up) into the circuit at 400.
You don't save significant time by doing 350 and you have more flexibility.
If ATC ask for higher then do it - if lower, do it.
Final decision is from the LHS - wassa big deal??
You don't save significant time by doing 350 and you have more flexibility.
If ATC ask for higher then do it - if lower, do it.
Final decision is from the LHS - wassa big deal??
Guest
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767 ex CDG
Scary!
Edited because the image was too wide for the screen. Please make sure that images are reduced in size before posting them.
[This message has been edited by Capt PPRuNe (edited 25 June 2001).]
Scary!
Edited because the image was too wide for the screen. Please make sure that images are reduced in size before posting them.
[This message has been edited by Capt PPRuNe (edited 25 June 2001).]
Guest
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Captain Spud, I believe there is no mandatory speed limit below 10000' in A, B, and IFR in class C airspace. Therefore, it only applies to VFR in C, plus all flights in D to G. Of course, most TMA's have speed limit points, usually approaching the holding fixes (12nm before lambourne etc). However, these are flexible depending on the traffic, whether you'll be holding etc. ATC can waive the speed restriction at there discretion on departure and arrival.
On departure, if we are heading in the right direction, it's not turbulent, and we get no speed, I will normally wind the speed up to the FMS speed (sometimes up to 300kts).
737's have heated windscreens for added bird protection. The manual says that if the window heat stops working, limit speed to 250 below 10000'. This implies that Boeing are happy that the windscreen will survive SOME birdstrikes above 250kts. (Not a 50lb Teredactyl, obviously).
What height do flocks of birds NORMALLY fly up to (I know some geese have been up to 30000'), but is 5000' any more dangerous than 15000'? Most birdstrikes occur near the ground on T/O and Landing below about a thousand feet. In Western Europe, do that many birds fly above this?
On departure, if we are heading in the right direction, it's not turbulent, and we get no speed, I will normally wind the speed up to the FMS speed (sometimes up to 300kts).
737's have heated windscreens for added bird protection. The manual says that if the window heat stops working, limit speed to 250 below 10000'. This implies that Boeing are happy that the windscreen will survive SOME birdstrikes above 250kts. (Not a 50lb Teredactyl, obviously).
What height do flocks of birds NORMALLY fly up to (I know some geese have been up to 30000'), but is 5000' any more dangerous than 15000'? Most birdstrikes occur near the ground on T/O and Landing below about a thousand feet. In Western Europe, do that many birds fly above this?
Guest
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I too have on occasion been a little frustrated by JMC and the 250 below Fl00
SOP. You know the situation, its been a
frustrating day, you are trying to make up
a bit of time to keep the programme in some
sort of order and here is matey wombling in
at 250 when ATC would in all probability be
happy to let him keep high-speed. Yes - I
know its probably does not make a great deal
of difference but it just seems so annoying
at the time.
Now before the legal beagles have a go, a
couple of riders need to be added to the above. In crappy weather, areas of difficult
terrain, busy GA situations etc - there is no
point in risking anything by going balls-out
but in a correctly controlled ATCenvironment application of a higher speed descent
profile should be an option at the commanders
discretion - and I do not mean high speed
downwind or 250 to the marker - I've seen them all over the years.
Not a problem in the winter however - JMC
aircraft seem to be parked up most of the time - oops only joking !
SOP. You know the situation, its been a
frustrating day, you are trying to make up
a bit of time to keep the programme in some
sort of order and here is matey wombling in
at 250 when ATC would in all probability be
happy to let him keep high-speed. Yes - I
know its probably does not make a great deal
of difference but it just seems so annoying
at the time.
Now before the legal beagles have a go, a
couple of riders need to be added to the above. In crappy weather, areas of difficult
terrain, busy GA situations etc - there is no
point in risking anything by going balls-out
but in a correctly controlled ATCenvironment application of a higher speed descent
profile should be an option at the commanders
discretion - and I do not mean high speed
downwind or 250 to the marker - I've seen them all over the years.
Not a problem in the winter however - JMC
aircraft seem to be parked up most of the time - oops only joking !
Guest
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As a member of the green tail brigade, I think the 250kts below 10 is a very good SOP. Esp going into some of the Greek Islands, it alows more time on preventing the ATC Controller from killing you, and a bird met at 250kts is a lot kinder to the aircraft than one met at 300+kts.
Just one thing to bare in mind is that the 250kts below 10 is not rigid, if ATC ask for a higher speed then the SOP can be ignored, as long as the captain feels that its safe.
As far as this incident, MC, either the captain felt the request was unsafe or you were stuck behind a training flight, and the captain felt that someone new to the aircraft hurtling around the sky at 280Kts at 6000ft was unsafe. I tend to agree with him.
If it makes you feel any better is happens to us also. Stuck behind a British world 737 into Faro, the GIT decended at M0.70 from FL330!! No complaints, just spent alot of time laughing at the poor b@stard
Just one thing to bare in mind is that the 250kts below 10 is not rigid, if ATC ask for a higher speed then the SOP can be ignored, as long as the captain feels that its safe.
As far as this incident, MC, either the captain felt the request was unsafe or you were stuck behind a training flight, and the captain felt that someone new to the aircraft hurtling around the sky at 280Kts at 6000ft was unsafe. I tend to agree with him.
If it makes you feel any better is happens to us also. Stuck behind a British world 737 into Faro, the GIT decended at M0.70 from FL330!! No complaints, just spent alot of time laughing at the poor b@stard
Guest
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Jonty, I totally agree there's no point bombing down towards high ground, at night, with dodgy ATC and an unfamiliar airfield.
If you can break the SOP, then sounds ok. If you can break it, then what's the point in having it?
You can laugh at us poor 737 drivers with our 0.7 descents. We get our own back when you're stuck behind us at FL370 all the way through France at 0.74!!
If you can break the SOP, then sounds ok. If you can break it, then what's the point in having it?
You can laugh at us poor 737 drivers with our 0.7 descents. We get our own back when you're stuck behind us at FL370 all the way through France at 0.74!!
Guest
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At last, BM, you make a decent point... I'm also a JMCer and from my point of view it is a reasonably good SOP. It does frustrate us also when we are coming back into the UK at some silly hour of the morning when there is no traffic around but I believe it is a more safe procedure.
AND YES WE CAN GO FASTER IF INSTRUCTED TO DO SO!
In controlled A/S ATC are responsible for the separation between aircraft and so either they control the speeds and profiles to fit in OR the published procedure does.
I agree totally that slowing up early does frustrate but if some one in front brings it back to 250 below 10 (Talking from the perspective of previous SOP's) it never worried me, however, what really does piss me off is someone doing 150- 160 kts from 18 miles out. This happens on many approaches into Spain and Portugal, usually on NPA, and usually by GB Airways. WHATS THAT ALL ABOUT? Recently we were flying normal "JMC" speeds into FARO and the aforementioned airline was back at 160 kts from around 20 miles out. Needless to say we had to fly around in circles too make space. NOW THAT IS FRUSTRATING. Before anyone says it was probably a training flight... I have it on good authority from an ex- airbus GB'er that they seemed to do this as a matter of course.
Flaps
AND YES WE CAN GO FASTER IF INSTRUCTED TO DO SO!
In controlled A/S ATC are responsible for the separation between aircraft and so either they control the speeds and profiles to fit in OR the published procedure does.
I agree totally that slowing up early does frustrate but if some one in front brings it back to 250 below 10 (Talking from the perspective of previous SOP's) it never worried me, however, what really does piss me off is someone doing 150- 160 kts from 18 miles out. This happens on many approaches into Spain and Portugal, usually on NPA, and usually by GB Airways. WHATS THAT ALL ABOUT? Recently we were flying normal "JMC" speeds into FARO and the aforementioned airline was back at 160 kts from around 20 miles out. Needless to say we had to fly around in circles too make space. NOW THAT IS FRUSTRATING. Before anyone says it was probably a training flight... I have it on good authority from an ex- airbus GB'er that they seemed to do this as a matter of course.
Flaps
Guest
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BigRab,
Agreed, however I have 3 pts on AGP
1. Lots of high ground
2. On Rw14 you need to slow up early as the speed runs away on the approach. I can't speak from the 757 perspective as I fly an Airbus, but we usually have to take the gear out of sequence just to hold the speed back.
3. Rw32 usually means you get vectored in on a shortened approach.. as we all know slow down OR go down NOT BOTH! Its one way to lose the height (Maybe not the most favourable). It could have been training!
Agreed, however I have 3 pts on AGP
1. Lots of high ground
2. On Rw14 you need to slow up early as the speed runs away on the approach. I can't speak from the 757 perspective as I fly an Airbus, but we usually have to take the gear out of sequence just to hold the speed back.
3. Rw32 usually means you get vectored in on a shortened approach.. as we all know slow down OR go down NOT BOTH! Its one way to lose the height (Maybe not the most favourable). It could have been training!
Guest
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Flap_actuator,
1)Yes there are lots of hills at AGP, but if you fly the STAR you won’t hit them, especially in good VMC.
Avoid high rate of descent and high speed as you approach MAR (not below 6000ft) and you won’t set the GPWS off either.
We were in descent .78/290 and catching the JMC 757 up, put on a delaying vector, whilst he was on short cut vector, and still closing. Voluntarily reduced to 240 at about 50 miles, way above 10,000ft then to 170 at 25 miles. I wounded if I was following a Cessna!
2) RWY 14. Try 250/6000 at MAR, decel to 190 descending to 5000, then go down with the glide in Flap 2.
Works a treat. Similar profile in slightly more slippery (but better speedbrakes) 757. No problem either.
3) RWY 32 If anticipating visual, arrange speed to be 190 @ 5000 right downwind, once past the high ground descend to circuit altitude for visual. No problem at all, saves about 15 track miles.
Maybe JMC don’t do visual approaches, as I had to follow one onto a 14 mile final at FUE (or LPA), could have been on the stand before he turned final!
Other one was PMI, again following a 757 at PMI published speeds, had to reduce to min approach for last 12 miles.
Me thinks you guys are on a go-slow!
Yes, they may be training, but if so there’s something wrong with the training if you have to go that slow.
F_A are you in the spare parts buisness?.
If I keep having to follow you, I'm going to wear my flaps out!
1)Yes there are lots of hills at AGP, but if you fly the STAR you won’t hit them, especially in good VMC.
Avoid high rate of descent and high speed as you approach MAR (not below 6000ft) and you won’t set the GPWS off either.
We were in descent .78/290 and catching the JMC 757 up, put on a delaying vector, whilst he was on short cut vector, and still closing. Voluntarily reduced to 240 at about 50 miles, way above 10,000ft then to 170 at 25 miles. I wounded if I was following a Cessna!
2) RWY 14. Try 250/6000 at MAR, decel to 190 descending to 5000, then go down with the glide in Flap 2.
Works a treat. Similar profile in slightly more slippery (but better speedbrakes) 757. No problem either.
3) RWY 32 If anticipating visual, arrange speed to be 190 @ 5000 right downwind, once past the high ground descend to circuit altitude for visual. No problem at all, saves about 15 track miles.
Maybe JMC don’t do visual approaches, as I had to follow one onto a 14 mile final at FUE (or LPA), could have been on the stand before he turned final!
Other one was PMI, again following a 757 at PMI published speeds, had to reduce to min approach for last 12 miles.
Me thinks you guys are on a go-slow!
Yes, they may be training, but if so there’s something wrong with the training if you have to go that slow.
F_A are you in the spare parts buisness?.
If I keep having to follow you, I'm going to wear my flaps out!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I work for JMC, It's an SOP that you get used to, in fact it can be quite fun to see how close you can get to the 250/ <10, it makes for a much safer app. and after all it safety thats the name of the game, I seem to remember a gulf air A320 coming to grief not so long ago, after he came hurtling into the circuit fast & high, whilst i'm not saying that this was the prime cause for the accident , it may have been a contibuting factor, the more time you have the better you think and so on.
Weren't Emiates thinking of having the same Sop?
From what I gather most airlines have this rule in some form.
Another point to remember Bigrab, is that we're doing a lot of training at the moment (cause the line guys are doing all the night flts)so if you cast your mind back to when you were training i'll bet you wanted time to think!!!
Weren't Emiates thinking of having the same Sop?
From what I gather most airlines have this rule in some form.
Another point to remember Bigrab, is that we're doing a lot of training at the moment (cause the line guys are doing all the night flts)so if you cast your mind back to when you were training i'll bet you wanted time to think!!!