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Indonesian B737 runway overrun/crash

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Indonesian B737 runway overrun/crash

Old 7th Mar 2007, 15:35
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In many reports, survivors tell the media they felt the plane shaking/vibrating heavily prior to touchdown. This may be caused by three things:
1. Weather. However, it seems to have been CAVOK at 7 AM, smooth air...
2. Spoiler/Speedbrake extended with flaps greater than 15, to bleed off energy.
3. flap extension to a greater flapsetting than 15, despite a high airspeed.
4. Imagination and/or PTSD.
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 15:51
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Just reading reports of the nosewheel being on fire before landing....

I have heard of other aircraft having problems with taxy lights causing fires after overheating the gear bay. I believe it had to do with the taxy light switch being left ON but the microswitch that would normally turn it off during gear retraction not working correctly.

Has there ever been any trouble with this on the Boeings? I fail to see any other reason for there being a fire from the nosewheel area???
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 16:00
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Oi Global warning, There no need for rudeness...............
Was merely stating that they are very thorough and yes they do seem as thorough as most UK carriers. However I didn't say they have the "same standards". There your words....
I presume you are not familiar with the UPG approach especially if circling for an approach from the east (High ground), Obviousely not, your relying on someones elses experiences............. Just as you are with regards to Garuda.
It will be intersting to see what did cause this incident, But until then leave the Garuda bashing and lets just pray for the people who lost their live today and hope for a quick recovery of the injured.
As previously said i would still happily fly with them. Much rather them than any of the Indo loco's!
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 16:08
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Fair enough Indonesia hasn't had the best safety record in the past few months but there is no point in speculating at this time, it will be months before we even hear a preliminary report.

Condolences to all that were affeceted by this tragedy.
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 16:10
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Quote:
In many reports, survivors tell the media they felt the plane shaking/vibrating heavily prior to touchdown. This may be caused by three things:
1. Weather. However, it seems to have been CAVOK at 7 AM, smooth air...
2. Spoiler/Speedbrake extended with flaps greater than 15, to bleed off energy.
3. flap extension to a greater flapsetting than 15, despite a high airspeed.

4. Imagination and/or PTSD.


5. Stalling (flow-break-away buffet).
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 16:13
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The debate about whether the press should report or participate in rescue efforts is not new nor is it restricted to aviation incidents/forums.
Both sides of the argument have got validity.
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 16:15
  #67 (permalink)  

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Short memories

Just to remind you, a Lion Air crashed fatally at Solo in 2005, and this line have had 2 other accidents since; a national 737-200 crashed at Medan on take-off early 2006 with full loss of life, Adam Air have had 2 significant crashes THIS YEAR, and had the memorable "lost" 737 last year that ended up on a tiny island strip. Now this from Garuda, and I can assure you, other public transport fatal accidents have taken place in Indonesia in the last 24 months; on a smaller scale, but still involving death.

What is so pitiful is that some writers here are expecting the authorities to investigate and publish findings. Indonesia is a death-trap aviation country, based on recent stats, and no remedial action has been announced. Third world country, third-world standards. (Competing with Cuba, Egypt, and Nigeria)

This may not be PC, but I challenge others to offer a solution to the carnage which will doubtless continue.
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 16:20
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Originally Posted by RoyHudd
I challenge others to offer a solution to the carnage which will doubtless continue.
I suppose you would as all you have done so far is fingerpointing.
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 17:46
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Grongle,

Lumping all Indonesian maintenance into one group as you have done is
a big mistake. The GMF, Garuda Maintenance Facility, in Jakarta is
rated by both the FAA and CAA/JAA as a top notch facility able to enforce
the strict regulations of the European and American Aviation standards. In
fact many top notch carriers from both regions send their aircraft there
for C and D checks. To catagorize Adam Air and their attempt to run a
cost deficient safe operation as the same as the GMF is like calling all
Englishmen drunks.
Ask the Aer Lingus crews who were stationed to Indonesia for the B747
Combi operation, ask the HAJJ crews who fly every year, there are
strict standards in effect. A poor decision to push a bad landing does
not sothsayer make. Let's let the injured be tendered and the dead be
mourned before we go throwing stones.
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 18:20
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Witnesses and participants with no windows

Very often witnesses to crashes get into a time warp. Fire balls come down from the sky etc. although it turns out that any fire has first started after the crash.

It's the same with talk of shuddering before landing: if there has been an off runway accident, who is to say where any juddering happened,or even when the landing was deemed to have happened?

Now our experts list reasons for nosewheels to be on fire before landing and why there was juddering - all based on witness statements as described above.

Better wait and see.

FC.
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 18:37
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Foxniner

I think you are quite right about the things you mentioned and I AM GLAD we are SPECULATING...it makes people think... ...we have to think now.

stable approaches, checklists properly done, touchdown on speed in touchdown zone...that is what makes safety

I also agree with the comment that many of these vibrations etc felt by witnesses may have been out of chronological order...it happens.
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 19:04
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Two RAAF officers ONBAORD the plane said it was too fast...if anyone rises to the rank of an officer in the RAAF, they should have a good clue about planes. That is good enough for me, the black box should have IAS info too.

here is the article from ABC (australian broadcasting)

ABC Online

ABC Online

Crashed plane may have been speeding, experts say. 08/03/2007. ABC News Online

[This is the print version of story http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems.../s1865942.htm]

Last Update: Thursday, March 8, 2007. 0:22am (AEDT)
Aviation disaster experts say speed may have been a factor in the crash.

Aviation disaster experts say speed may have been a factor in the crash. (REUTERS)
Crashed plane may have been speeding, experts say

An Indonesian Airforce commander at Yogyakarta Airport says a plane that crashed on landing, killing dozens of people, may have been travelling too fast.

The plane's operator, Garuda, says at least 22 people have died, while a Government spokesman has put the death toll at 49.

Health Ministry National Crisis Centre chief Rustam Pakaya said 23 people, including two Australians, died in the crash.

Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer says 10 Australians were in the plane.

He said five Australians were injured and at least another four -- an air force liaison staffer, a police officer, an embassy staffer and a journalist -- were unaccounted for.

Mr Downer has inspected the crash site and visited the injured Australians in hospital.

He says four remain in hospital in varying conditions, including two Air Force members with minor injuries.

One Australian walked from the crash uninjured.

Mr Downer said two survivors, both in the Australian air force, had told him the aircraft landed too fast.

"The two who are in the best health told me that the plane came hurtling in to the runway at a much greater speed than an aeroplane would normally land at," he said.

"They themselves thought the plane would never stop in the length of the runway, which it duly didn't.

"They just ploughed across the end of the runway, across a road, hit a bank and a culvert and went into a paddy field. When it hit the bank and the culvert, it exploded."
Investigation

First Air Marshall Benyamin Dandel said the plane appeared to be speeding, causing it to overshoot the runway by about 300 metres.

Yogyakarta's Adi Sucipto airport is known for its relatively short runway.

The head of the National Transport Safety Commission, Tatang Kurniadi, told Elshinta news radio the commission was investigating the disaster.

"It's not easy to reach a conclusion on an accident like this. We're looking for evidence such as where the fire had come from," he said.

Aviation disaster expert Robert Heath from the University of South Australia said aircraft speed might have been a factor in the crash.

"From what I can see so far the aircraft appeared to land intact and that may point to excess speed being a factor," Dr Heath said.

Indonesia President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has ordered the chief security minister to investigate "non-technical" matters related to the crash, Cabinet Secretary Sudi Silalahi told reporters.

Indonesian investigators at the scene say they have recovered the black box flight recorder from the wreckage.

Garuda spokesman Pujobroto said the Boeing 737-400 plane, manufactured in 1992, had its last major inspection last month and had logged 34,960 flight hours.

Indonesian Transport Minister Hatta Radjasa said Australia would join an investigation into the accident.
Survivor

One of the Australian Defence Force Members injured in the crash, Kyle Quinlan, has told the ABC's Lateline he and his colleague were lucky to survive.

"Pretty much a few seats in front of us we couldn't see much more due to the smoke and fire, everyone screaming, just trying to punch through the exit," he said.

"Once we were out of the aircraft I just assisted with Flight Sergeant Haddin, due to him taking a fairly big brunt of taking the force on his forehead he started losing his vision and with his dislocated shoulder was in a very bad state."

He says he knew the plane was in trouble as it approached the runway.

"It just seemed like it was coming in too quick -- I looked out on the right hand side and saw how fast we were coming in, which was not a normal landing from the descent and how low we were to the ground -- that's when we hit the ground," he said.

"We bounced off the tarmac and sort of bounced again and from there it was just pretty much brace ourselves for the impact."
Assistance

Mr Downer has told the ABC's 7:30 Report two Australian support teams are flying to the area.

"One of them is a medical team from the Australian Defence Force," he said.

"In addition to that there is an official government Boeing coming up here overnight which is bringing an emergency response team -- people who can provide logistical support of one kind or the other for the Australians."

- ABC/Reuters


© 2007 Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Copyright information: http://abc.net.au/common/copyrigh.htm
Privacy information: http://abc.net.au/privacy.htm
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 20:24
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Fair use edited excerpts from other places...

The team in JOG from IndoFlyer, Indonesia's aviation forum, have sent in their pics.
You can find the pics at:
http://www.indoflyer.net/indoforum/t...116617&mpage=7
http://www.indoflyer.net/indoforum/t...116617&mpage=9

A few of our guys are willing to sacrifice their limbs to take these shots, so please enjoy and keep the pics there...

Blackboxes retrieved, and secured... Then the skidmarks.

Here are some stuff on the accident...
According to "trained eye witnesses", as in, those who are familiar with air ops and the airport, the approach was fast and "vertically unstable," producing a late touchdown. Nose hit the ground hard and a pop/bang was heard, indicating the nosewheel tyreburst. U can see the leftover marks of the nosewheel, producing a metal to ground contact, hence the reports of nosewheel on fire. Main gear skidmarks indicated maximum manual braking for maximum stopping power, but wheels have skidded, producing only 30% of the applied braking power.

This should dismiss most of the speculative/unclear reports on what actually happened on the runway. On the previous pics, it was apparent that after the aircraft have gone over a perimeter fence and a road (luckily a quiet one linking the main road to the Air Force Academy), where the right engine contacted the opposite embankment, resulting in right outer wing detaching and flinging itself over to the left side of the aircraft, and a fire from the fuel followed.

Given the wing detaching, fuel was spilled causing fire, and as the aircraft stopped, the fuel with its momentum was thrown forward onto the front right fuselage, where fire initially was reported to start, and then working itself back, eventually engulfing 2/3 of the fuselage with a starboard bias.

Everything else, you know and/or have seen.
and...

This was verified by a witness in the aircraft whose information I just received, being a regular flyer to JOG, however he did not sit in the window seat, but on the left of the aisle. He only noticed a few things through his glances out of the window. The aircraft was higher and faster than usual, 2 runway contacts as in, it bounced before doing the landing roll, and quite hard, he cannot recall whether it was nose first or not. Once he saw the terminal passing by, given the speed, he braced for impact. He cannot recall how many impacts apart from it was loud and mostly from the right side. After aircraft coming to rest, smoke was apparent and fire was visible from the front left, he assisted with pax trying to open the emergency exit window, then made it out. He saw the aircraft was catching fire, that was the last details he gave.
For those saying the emergency vehicles taking a long time...
It went out of the runway perimeter, over a road, onto an embankment (hence the nose impact and wing detachment), before coming to rest ain a fenced off area on the other side of the road.

Now, to get there, there no roadway across the embankment onto the other fenced off area where the approach lights are. So, the emergency crew have to literally get out of the airport first to get there... and open a few gates in the mean time.

All the ambulances were in the road below the embankment, they can't make it over the embankment !
And...

It hit the opposite embankment of the road after the runway... If you're familiar with the Kegworth Crash, imagine the aircraft overrunning the runway at high speed and flying accross the M1 and hitting the opposite embankment...

Colleagues have collected info on the crash site and also on the witnesses... aircraft stayed intact until crossing the road... hitting that embankment ruined the day. Cockpit was 80% intact due to impact but was twisted just behind L1/R1. That's how the pilots got out alive. Current info is that some pax were still strapped to their seats, indicating they were knocked unconscious during the impacts (most likely the 1st embankment impact) and so was the FA1... Hence they didn't make it alive.

Furthermore, it is still unclear whether the Captain was the pilot flying. The history of the F/O is also being chased.

On culture and personal traits, Go-Arounds are encouraged in GA when you're "out of the slot"... Why he didn't go around despite the unstable approach remains unknown at this stage. Witnesses on the ground airside in JOG watched the aircraft land waaay late in horror, they were all screaming "GO AROUND" and knew disaster was impending when they heard the reversers... The skid marks indicated max manual braking, sometime during the landing, someone tapped on the brakes disengaging the Autobrake (set on 2, GA SOP)... and anti skid protection was lost thereafter.

Spoilers were deployed as per eyewitnesses airside.

Some further facts:
1. No distress calls were made. The firefighters arrived within the required 120 seconds of raising the alarm, which was not late given the nature of the accident and the whole landing roll and impact was visible from the tower. The problem was that some the beefy fire engines was prevented getting accross the embankment! Ambulances couldn't make it over the embankment from the road the aircraft jumped over.

2. No fire from wing 3 mins previous to the landing as per some claims. The 'trained' eyewitnesses in JOG airport mentioned wing vortex instead. This is due to the small spread between the temp. and the dew point which is normal for mornings here.

3. No windshear. Winds were CALM according to JOG ATC.

4. Cabin crew were seen rushing to get food into the galley. This is NORMAL for CGK-JOG flights. A 50min flight with full meal service, whaddya expect? I've seen very late rushes to secure galley on these flights, incl CGKJOG.

5. Air Pocket... err... Terrain Convection "bumps" on landing is normal for JOG... the surrounding geography makes this an everyday (even pepetual) occurence. 09 Approach goes over small hill range, then after glideslope intercept, nearing the landing, you have... a few main roads, a fly over, a field, houses, then a small river valley, with an embankment onto the runway... So, mild bumps normal. Pax reports of bumps are unclear whether on approach, or the landing itself.

6. Aircraft confirmed to have bounced 2x.

All that has been written was given through collection of colleagues in the field doing their investigative work (yes, we like to play "see how fast NTSC comes up with a finding and how different it would be"). However, these are for "amateur" objective speculation purposes only...

So now 3 questions remain...
1. Why the unstable approach? No abnormalities to the glideslope reported.
2. Why the nosewheel burst?
3. Why did the landing continue even if he touched down past the touchdown zone?

Now, this gets into the domains of human factors, where, currently available info is scarce, and not something I'd like to get into at this stage.
It's been a long day, 22 now confirmed dead. I know 2 pax injured on that flight, spent the day tracing them, 1 other pax uninjured... all this less than 24hrs after we almost lost 1 732 being vectored into a mountain elsewhere... with it some friends on it. What a heck of a 48hr period!
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 20:45
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I may be missing something but I didn't notice any escape slides from the forward and aft doors.

The forward door has probably been extensively damaged but the aft door looks like it opened normally.

Last edited by Lynx206; 7th Mar 2007 at 21:09. Reason: Clarification
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 21:56
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The Qantas 747 over run at BKK could have ended in a similar disaster..but for the grace of God. I wouldn't categorize this accident as an ethnic problem.
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 22:37
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PK-KAR

Many thanks for the update.

Unfortunately many of us cannot access the pics.

Could you repost them here or elsewhere?

PS. I'm on Fraudband, not dial-up.

Anyone else?
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 23:50
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THANKYOU 'PK'......

For taking the time and the trouble in these, your 'trying times', to provide your excellent description / summary of what I might call, 'qualified observations / thoughts'.

This site is all the richer because of you and your colleagues, and your contribution was certainly worthwhile, and APPRECIATED!

Best Wishes to You, and Condolences to you and your colleagues.

Like you said - "What a heck of a 48 hour period".....

Regards......
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 00:50
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How difficult is the landing at that Airport ?

I have seen a picture of PK-GZC landing on that runway and flying over the Airports fence and the heads of spectators at an altitude of 30-40 ft. Is anybody out there who has experience with that runway ?
Excuse my poor english, pls.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 00:52
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Unfortunately many of us cannot access the pics.

Could you repost them here or elsewhere?

PS. I'm on Fraudband, not dial-up.

Anyone else
Yep, been trying on and off for quite a while and can't get anywhere.



Hi there PK-KAR, had a feeling you'd turn up here. Thanks for the serious update - all the more so valid when "trained/aviation savvy" witnesses are the source - and hopefully enough to silence the more wild among speculators. Have been hearing the usual "one eyewitness said this, one eyewitness said that" for most of the day - reports which don't match the facts - but are churned out by certain elements of the media, verbatim, nonetheless. For example: Channel 4 news: "Garuda have the worst record in the region" - I think they're confused with some other airline with an unrelated name!!-(strangely, newly painted 'white' bananas come to mind!! )

I remember a while back expressing the cynical view (as others have) that there was more to follow in the way of tragedies - but I genuinely didn't think Garuda would be involved in the next one. I think this accident seems more of a tragedy personally than any of the others in Indonesia because I've been on that flight. I think Yogya airport is a real "little gem" (short and rollercoaster bumpy runway aside) - I've even spent some time with my wife (being ever-patient) on the side of that road near the threshold of RW27 "spotting". I've even got a picture looking along that road with a hazy Merapi in the background!!

It hit the opposite embankment of the road after the runway........aircraft stayed intact until crossing the road... hitting that embankment ruined the day
That embankment seems pretty insidious when driving along that road - but not hard to imagine the consequences of an aircraft encountering it at ANY speed. I don't have charts for Yogya - but I would have thought that to get off for parking without getting to the end - you'd have to be hitting pretty close to the mark on RW09 - esp. if on the heavy side. If, in the final analysis, this turns out to be purely down to crew error (without any technical/other mitigation) - I really can't imagine what they were thinking??? As for not aborting the landing - with what you indicate about the aircraft's predicament being so obvious to witnesses airside and on the aircraft - I'd like to think that in the crew's mind at least - there was something (on the tech side) which they believed precluded a go-around "on the ground" - but I know it's looking like that's pure wishful thinking.

We're due to go back to indonesia sometime this year - hopefully for good. I'd often thought I'd like to jump on a bike and go back to that spot every once in a while - but I think it will seem different after today's tragedy - I'm sure the scars will be on that embankment for a long, long time.

I hope those you know aren't too badly injured, and that all those injured make as speedy a recovery as possible.


The Qantas 747 over run at BKK could have ended in a similar disaster..but for the grace of God.


I think that applies in a lot of runway excursions - here at Dublin a few years ago, a Delta airlines MD11 left the runway in bad weather thanks to a "freak" gust. The plane departed to the left even with full right rudder and tiller(too fast to be effective during the occurrence). wind gust wasn't recorded by the anemometer at the threshold, but fortunately the crew were exonerated thanks to the statement of a ground personnel member who experienced the same "freak" gust while inspecting lights nearby. The aircraft came to a stop close to the perimeter fence on soft ground with no injuries. I've often thought how different the outcome would have been if the gust had been encountered earlier in the landing roll - with more speed/energy, probably through the perimeter fence, encounter with an 8ft deep "gear swallowing/crunching" drainage ditch, and potentially a similar outcome to today’s tragedy.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 01:02
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Originally Posted by Lynx206
I may be missing something but I didn't notice any escape slides from the forward and aft doors.
The forward door has probably been extensively damaged but the aft door looks like it opened normally.
In one of the pictures posted from the Indonesian Spotters site, you can see the L2 door has its "Slide Warning Strap" not secured across the viewing window, indicating the FA probably removed it to "check outside conditions" before opening their door. You can also see the L2 slide pressure gauge viewing window, which appears to have nothing behind it - indicating to me the slide was at least removed from the slide bustle, and hopefully deployed.

Other doors I have not seen so cant comment.

Hope that helps!
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