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ATC... Bollockings for all

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ATC... Bollockings for all

Old 27th Feb 2007, 13:58
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ATC... Bollockings for all

Was at MAN yesterday 17/1800 'ish. Tower controller was dishing out fairly stern bollockings to anyone who failed to acknowledge that there were now two runways at Manchester.
When we pitched up on the Twr frequency (thinking callsign only as other major UK airports) we got a stern 'Pass your message' as if we were not expected with all the other aircraft coming down the ILS. Our 'Clear to land' illicited a bollocking for not specifying "...Land 24R" despite the fact that 24L is not/never used for landing.
On departure we stopped short of 24R at F1 (as cleared by GMC) and switched to the tower. The same Tower guy then repeated the clearance issued by GMC and then promptly issued a bollocking for not reading back 24R in a clearance we had already complying with at F1?
Listening to the freq for a few minutes it was evident that people were actually staring to ignore his rants.
Questions.....
1. The next I check in with MAN tower on the ILS are they expecting a full position report ?
2. Is there a brutal crusade in force by the R/T purists at MAN ?
3. Is there a major chip-on-shoulder thing about driving home the fact that 'Ringway Airport' now has two runways.
4. Is this one just one ****** who need to take some leave/retire?
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 14:03
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You missed one possible explanation...

* one guy doing his best to increase safety in two parallel rwy operation (however he goes about it!)
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 14:05
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Or..................

He may have been having a check.
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 14:10
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The taxiway at LGW is NEVER used for landing but that's not stopped people from trying in the past. That is why it now has a 'kink' in it! If there are two parallel runways, the correct designation should always be used. You may know which one your supposed to land on but the controller needs to know that!

Remember, approx 80% of accidents are down to Human Factors, NOT machines.
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 14:31
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despite the fact that 24L is not/never used for landing.
During normal operations 24L is not used but has reguarly been used during the late evening & early hours when 24R has been undergoing maintenance or during a temp 24R runway closure during the day.
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 14:34
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MAN Airport has had a few close calls, since the opening of 24L.
All operators for safety and clarity of instruction are required to read back all hold short instructions and crossing instructions.
The same applies to landings and departures as not all operators and their crews are familiar with the airfield.
I am aware that to crews that are familiar with the layout of MAN, this may be perceived as being slightly pedantic or over cautious but the use of R and L suffixes makes crews think and hopefully increases airfield situational awareness, which is good for all of us.
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 14:42
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Only SLF here, but...

Regarding the Gatwick taxiway that BYMONEK mentions, I've been told several times that, in emergency, it has an offical role as a backup runway. Was this information not true, or has this been changed?

Bobbsy
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 14:45
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And to add to that, then it is not the big effort needed by crews to add in those few extra words to enhance safety and make everybody happy. It doesn't cost anything and doesn't require any physical exercise to say that bit, + it should be quit common knowledge that you state what your clearense is and you intention if needed at first contact unless advices different (eg. "contact director xxx.xxx callsign only")

- Not wanting to do it is sheer lazyness me thinks
 
Old 27th Feb 2007, 15:06
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Bobbsy,

Yes you are correct. 26R/08L is the designation of the "taxiway" / reserve runway.

The "kink" in the taxiway mentioned above is valid for normal taxiway operations, but of course disappears once "runway lighting mode" is selected!

Regards

In trim
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 15:07
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I wonder if any of this is the fallout from the XL 737 fiasco a while ago? That report is fairly recent on the AAIB website and there may have been a couple of controllers taken to the headmaster's office over it.

Part of the findings related to instructions being read back precisely by drivers to ensure they were received properly.

Just a thought anyway.
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 17:06
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Bollockings for all? Just for you, by the sound of it.

Appears as though you feel wronged, and want some public sympathy because you can't be bothered to apply good RT discipline or read the airfield chart notes.

Sorry mate, none here: take the hit, read CAP413 again and do it better next time.

One stormy night that new-found habit of yours of reading back 24L or R might save a lot of embarrassment, or even your neck.

Could be that you need some leave, and maybe get some perspective on your place within the team effort..
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 17:10
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Is it really such a hassle to add the word 'left' or 'right' to your transmission?! It doesn't take up a lot of airtime, it removes ambiguity and it keeps Mr Tower happy.

Magplug you hit the nail square on the head yourself - Manchester has two runways. That they are parallel is completely immaterial - you can only line up on one, take off on one or land on one at a time. However you can very easily cross the wrong one.

The adage 'familiarity breeds contempt' springs to mind. Do you never mention L or R when operating from airports with parallel strips? Or just at Manchester?
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 17:21
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Just a quicky on the "kink" at LGW. You've got three parallel pieces of concrete/tarmac there. The main runway is the Southern of the three, 26L/08R, the next one, 26R/08L is the backup and is not kinked, only the end of it is fed into the waiting area for the other end. Aircraft use this often for taxiing out and in. The Northern of the three is called Juliet and is only a taxiway, marked and lit as such. that's the one that has a kink in it, at the Tango intersection where the link that goes round the back of the big hanger that Virgin use.

Hope that clears up any confusion fully for Bobbsy.

Of course there's also the bit that runs along in front of the hangers Southside too, but you don't really need to know that
 
Old 27th Feb 2007, 17:29
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Could sound like a local and add the phrases "our kid" "nice one fella" "proper snide" or "its like buzzin round ere int it"

You'd be welcomed with open arms into the nest of the North West.
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 17:46
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Air traffikers running to each others defence! Only one ILS on the 24s at MAN and that's on the RIGHT- you cannot be established on the LEFT and will have already reported to director that you are established on the RIGHT - so save breath. MAN has had delusions of grandeur ever since it started to refer to 24R when 24L was nothing more then a strip of cleared turf. Nothing wrong with standards but let's stop stating the bleeding obvious.
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 17:58
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Air traffikers running to each others defence! Only one ILS on the 24s at MAN and that's on the RIGHT- you cannot be established on the LEFT and will have already reported to director that you are established on the RIGHT - so save breath. MAN has had delusions of grandeur ever since it started to refer to 24R when 24L was nothing more then a strip of cleared turf. Nothing wrong with standards but let's stop stating the bleeding obvious.
Beaten to the punch again!
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 18:21
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Initial contact with tower is callsign only unless told otherwise.......

IMO it's good practice to add the designator L or R if only to improve everyone's situational awareness. MAN may not have an ILS to 24L but places like LHR, MUC, PMI(?) do have parallel ILS and by adopting a "catch all" approach i.e. stating L or R you means don't have to remember whether or not there is a parallel ILS. Just say L or R - it really isn't a big deal!

Safety is all about teamwork. It's not nice to see pilots and ATC bickering over one letter! So let's all kiss and make up and keep it SAFE.

A4
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 18:22
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Hey guys calm down..... even Barton International has 27L and 27R !
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Old 27th Feb 2007, 18:29
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MaxReheat:

"Air traffikers running to each others defence! Nothing wrong with standards but let's stop stating the bleeding obvious. "

Say that to all those relatives to dead pax through the years. Most disarsters happen due to human error, and the way to try and avoid this, is NOT to have your attitude, but to follow the procedures set out. They are there to enhance safety and not to just anoy everyone as you seems to think.

If you are too lazy to add "Right" or "Left", and don't understand why basic ATC procedures and R/T procedures is set out, then leave the business please, and save the rest of us for 1 unwanted moron.

Hope I will never fly with you, either as pax or crew
 
Old 27th Feb 2007, 18:41
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Up and Down Operator... Among the wisest words expressed so far on this thread and I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence. There can never ever be an argument against enhancing safety.
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