View Poll Results: Should there be a separate frequency for practice distress calls instead of 121.5?
Yes (I am a professional pilot)
363
45.60%
No (I am a professional pilot)
240
30.15%
Yes (I am a recreational pilot)
79
9.92%
No (I am a recreational pilot)
78
9.80%
Don't know or don't care (I may or may not even be a pilot)
36
4.52%
Voters: 796. This poll is closed
Abuse on 121.5
I've been watching the bickering on this thread for a while now.
It appears that the main belligerents are non-Brit Long-haul Pilots who have really no conception of :-
1. How small the UK is.
2. At any one time, the large number of GA aircraft over the island.
3. A great deal of the UK is covered with CAS, a lot of it down to quite low
levels, unlike for example, the US, France and Scandinavia.
4. There is not complete Radar cover over the island therefore nobody to
point out to the student should he/she stray towards CAS.
It follows therefore that it is very easy for a student pilot to infringe CAS very quickly, if he/she becomes uncertain of their position.
This is exacerbated in a number of cases by the problem in the UK of being restricted in max. altitude by said CAS. This therefore prevents the pilot from climbing higher to achieve a greater, more accurate picture of his geographical position. Its a known fact that it is more difficult to navigate low-level and, in addition, a great deal of specific areas of Britain can look exactly the same at such heights.
So, in the UK,from a safety point of view, it is considered that the lesser of two evils is for Instructors to teach students/ student controllers the use of the EMC frequency in the form of a PAN call to establish their position rapidly , and without fear, before causing a major disaster.
As a matter of interest, my personal opinion is that a practice call on the ACTUAL EMC frequency, properly taught, is a quick and poignant reassurance to a student that it works. It also convinces him/her that this is acceptable and there will be no repercussions from the Authorities.
You guys want to chat to relieve the boredom ? Go find your own frequency.
Blue skies,
Sleeve.
It appears that the main belligerents are non-Brit Long-haul Pilots who have really no conception of :-
1. How small the UK is.
2. At any one time, the large number of GA aircraft over the island.
3. A great deal of the UK is covered with CAS, a lot of it down to quite low
levels, unlike for example, the US, France and Scandinavia.
4. There is not complete Radar cover over the island therefore nobody to
point out to the student should he/she stray towards CAS.
It follows therefore that it is very easy for a student pilot to infringe CAS very quickly, if he/she becomes uncertain of their position.
This is exacerbated in a number of cases by the problem in the UK of being restricted in max. altitude by said CAS. This therefore prevents the pilot from climbing higher to achieve a greater, more accurate picture of his geographical position. Its a known fact that it is more difficult to navigate low-level and, in addition, a great deal of specific areas of Britain can look exactly the same at such heights.
So, in the UK,from a safety point of view, it is considered that the lesser of two evils is for Instructors to teach students/ student controllers the use of the EMC frequency in the form of a PAN call to establish their position rapidly , and without fear, before causing a major disaster.
As a matter of interest, my personal opinion is that a practice call on the ACTUAL EMC frequency, properly taught, is a quick and poignant reassurance to a student that it works. It also convinces him/her that this is acceptable and there will be no repercussions from the Authorities.
You guys want to chat to relieve the boredom ? Go find your own frequency.
Blue skies,
Sleeve.
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Think I found a clip of Monarch Man at work..
Personal opinion; practice pans - no problem, traffic permitting; requests for football/cricket/rugby scores - no chance; requests by "the xyz 123, "we will be entering your airspace in about 30 minutes and would appreciate direct routing. We have already contacted the military and they have no objection." Note, no "please" or "thank you." Yeah, right, If anybody gets a delay, guess who is candidate #1? Before anyone jumps in I know i'm down here because you are up there, not the other way round; and a direct routing was always given where traffic allowed
Personal opinion; practice pans - no problem, traffic permitting; requests for football/cricket/rugby scores - no chance; requests by "the xyz 123, "we will be entering your airspace in about 30 minutes and would appreciate direct routing. We have already contacted the military and they have no objection." Note, no "please" or "thank you." Yeah, right, If anybody gets a delay, guess who is candidate #1? Before anyone jumps in I know i'm down here because you are up there, not the other way round; and a direct routing was always given where traffic allowed
Last edited by Lon More; 6th Mar 2007 at 03:14.
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It appears that the main belligerents are non-Brit Long-haul Pilots who have really no conception of :-
1. How small the UK is.
2. At any one time, the large number of GA aircraft over the island.
3. A great deal of the UK is covered with CAS, a lot of it down to quite low
levels, unlike for example, the US, France and Scandinavia.
1. How small the UK is.
2. At any one time, the large number of GA aircraft over the island.
3. A great deal of the UK is covered with CAS, a lot of it down to quite low
levels, unlike for example, the US, France and Scandinavia.
An American friend was surprised going along the M25 from Denham to Stapleford how close all the aircraft seemed to be. Back home he would have called them near misses.
Not the place to be doing orbits if you can help it.
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RTO, there are approximately 1200 ppans a year in the UK, this includes 245.1 which I guess you don't ordinarily listen to
. Is that really a large amount of chatter? As far as lost aircraft are concerned, surely the fact that someone is trying to get the aircraft "un-lost" contributes towards safety and is not a threat to safety.
As for all the other claptrap, I fully agree - far too much chatter, mostly from foreign aircrew!!
. Is that really a large amount of chatter? As far as lost aircraft are concerned, surely the fact that someone is trying to get the aircraft "un-lost" contributes towards safety and is not a threat to safety.As for all the other claptrap, I fully agree - far too much chatter, mostly from foreign aircrew!!
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KRKG
I have been saved by using 121.5 and live to tell the tale. I am also thankful of the tremendous help and suport of our commercial brethren and of course the fabulous crew at D&D
I have been saved by using 121.5 and live to tell the tale. I am also thankful of the tremendous help and suport of our commercial brethren and of course the fabulous crew at D&D
1200 a year may sound insignificant to you London MIL...
However, people who practice PANS overwhelmingly fly on weekends with good weather. Those 1200 pratice PANS you talk about are very much concentrated over a few sunny weekends.
And my oh my what a clutter it produces!
Furthermore, a misdialed frequency takes a few seconds to sort out.
A practice PAN goes on and on and on in comparison!
disclaimer to keep the peace: please continue practising whatever you need to practise, on live emergency frequencies or otherwhise. That is your infrastructure, adhere to it, it may save your life. But do not immediately dismiss those who question the practice as a bunch of foreign pilots who have nothing to say.
However, people who practice PANS overwhelmingly fly on weekends with good weather. Those 1200 pratice PANS you talk about are very much concentrated over a few sunny weekends.
And my oh my what a clutter it produces!
Furthermore, a misdialed frequency takes a few seconds to sort out.
A practice PAN goes on and on and on in comparison!
disclaimer to keep the peace: please continue practising whatever you need to practise, on live emergency frequencies or otherwhise. That is your infrastructure, adhere to it, it may save your life. But do not immediately dismiss those who question the practice as a bunch of foreign pilots who have nothing to say.
With respect, gentlemen, I feel that all I can suggest to RTO and PENKO et al is that they concentrate more on the Sector frequency, especially when in UK airspace, and leave 121.500 alone until it is a little more quiet.
Your transit (or Approach) Control is far more important to your flight than having the volume turned up on Box 2 or 3.
LHR/LGW for example are just a little bit more busy than CPH most of the time.
Rgds, Sleeve.
Your transit (or Approach) Control is far more important to your flight than having the volume turned up on Box 2 or 3.
LHR/LGW for example are just a little bit more busy than CPH most of the time.
Rgds, Sleeve.
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PENKO - you said "And my oh my what a clutter it produces" You and most commercial contibutors here just ignore the FACT that over 90% of the transmissions are unwarranted and unjustified "chatter" from the commercial operators so why do you persist in blaming GA?
WorkinHard, it is not a CAT versus GAT thing.
Any CAT-pilot will immediately aknowledge the fact that there is too much 'chatter' on 121.5, be it inadvertantly (fingertrouble when manipulating multiple radios on a multiple sector day) or otherwhise.
So, I do not persist in blaming GA only. Read my disclaimer. I fully recognise that practise PANS are legitimate use of 121.5, I fully recognise that CAT plays a substantial part in chatter, but is it, in your turn, so hard to admit that on certain sunny days these practise PANS also add a fair deal to the chatter?
Any CAT-pilot will immediately aknowledge the fact that there is too much 'chatter' on 121.5, be it inadvertantly (fingertrouble when manipulating multiple radios on a multiple sector day) or otherwhise.
So, I do not persist in blaming GA only. Read my disclaimer. I fully recognise that practise PANS are legitimate use of 121.5, I fully recognise that CAT plays a substantial part in chatter, but is it, in your turn, so hard to admit that on certain sunny days these practise PANS also add a fair deal to the chatter?
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In fairness to Penko he did just encourage you to keep practising.
I think us CAT chaps generaly accept that we are the prime offenders in terms of abuseing 121.5 ( Practise Pans of course are not an abuse ) We have got that far with this thread at least so given that perhaps we could stop wittering on and point scoring off each other and discuss ways to motivate individuals and companies to mend their ways. I made a couple of suggestions earlier on, any thoughts ?
That said CAT drivers are still allowed, I hope, to express annoyance at Practise Pans cluttering up 121.5 ( not in the air though ) It may be only a small number in real terms but at times it seems to be more. And yes I do have the wit to turn gaurd off climbing out of or descending into terminal airspace iaw my companies SOP. I agree it is valuable practise for all and I in no way want to stop it. I just would like a seperate freq for it. The GAT world would probably get more value out of that than they do with the present system. From the poll above it would seem I am far from alone in that view.
I think us CAT chaps generaly accept that we are the prime offenders in terms of abuseing 121.5 ( Practise Pans of course are not an abuse ) We have got that far with this thread at least so given that perhaps we could stop wittering on and point scoring off each other and discuss ways to motivate individuals and companies to mend their ways. I made a couple of suggestions earlier on, any thoughts ?
That said CAT drivers are still allowed, I hope, to express annoyance at Practise Pans cluttering up 121.5 ( not in the air though ) It may be only a small number in real terms but at times it seems to be more. And yes I do have the wit to turn gaurd off climbing out of or descending into terminal airspace iaw my companies SOP. I agree it is valuable practise for all and I in no way want to stop it. I just would like a seperate freq for it. The GAT world would probably get more value out of that than they do with the present system. From the poll above it would seem I am far from alone in that view.
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Ashling....
The issue of a separate practice frequency has been raised time and again on this thread. Great idea..... but....
- Let's not go back into all the subtleties and issues of frequency allocation on VHF, but the way it's done at the moment, there IS a shortage.
- D&D works on ONE frequency only at the moment (121.5, just in case anyone forgot). As said repeatedly, making it dual-frequency would require a lot of mods, new equipment, etc. ..... in other words, CASH, which does not seem to be forthcoming.
Sad, but true.
- Wouldn't a practice frequency become, in less than no time, a new chat frequency for CAT? Just think about it.
The issue of a separate practice frequency has been raised time and again on this thread. Great idea..... but....
- Let's not go back into all the subtleties and issues of frequency allocation on VHF, but the way it's done at the moment, there IS a shortage.
- D&D works on ONE frequency only at the moment (121.5, just in case anyone forgot). As said repeatedly, making it dual-frequency would require a lot of mods, new equipment, etc. ..... in other words, CASH, which does not seem to be forthcoming.
Sad, but true.
- Wouldn't a practice frequency become, in less than no time, a new chat frequency for CAT? Just think about it.
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Netherlands uses a common TWR/APP freq (118.7 IIRC) as a regional guard which removes the problem of cluttering. Furthermore Dutch Mil. provides FIS in most of the airspace anyway and are therefore aware of most of the traffic
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Someone mentioned duration of transmissions vs. number of transmissions.
February 2006
Total duration of PPAN calls - 1128 seconds
Total duration of actual emergency calls - 2706 seconds
Total duration of chat/non-operational calls - 8566 seconds
July 2006
Total duration of PPAN calls - 3488 seconds
Total duration of actual emergency calls - 3437 seconds
Total duration of chat/non-operational calls - 15068 seconds
The statistical peak of 15068 seconds was largely attributable to two particular afternoon/evening periods on 1 July and 4 July.
February 2006
Total duration of PPAN calls - 1128 seconds
Total duration of actual emergency calls - 2706 seconds
Total duration of chat/non-operational calls - 8566 seconds
July 2006
Total duration of PPAN calls - 3488 seconds
Total duration of actual emergency calls - 3437 seconds
Total duration of chat/non-operational calls - 15068 seconds
The statistical peak of 15068 seconds was largely attributable to two particular afternoon/evening periods on 1 July and 4 July.
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I know Christiaan I was the one who originaly raised it back on page 1.
It would undoubtably be expensive, the mil managed it with 243 & 243.1 but then that was UHF. Personaly I don't think it would become the new chat freq, most CAT/GAT listen out on 121.5 not to keep upto date with the footie but to be in a position to help others and to be helped. Many have benifitted from that over the years. A-lot of CAT operators require it as SOP too. Most people therefore listen out on it for good reason and as we generaly only listen to 2 box's selecting a practise freq would not appear high on anyones list. If someone does want to chat freight train is on 123.4 and it would be just as easy to switch to that as to a practise freq.
So that leaves us with trying to stop people misusing 121.5 be they CAT or GAT. How do we do that ? I made some suggestions earlier so just wondered what you thought. Mariners tend to have the same snag with channel 16 so maybe its just insoluble but surly with a group of professionals that cannot be true ?
As an aside CAT abuse of 121.5 is always going to be more noticable as it tends to occur at 30 something thousand feet and has a large footprint. Equaly its CAT who hear it all for the same reason.
It would undoubtably be expensive, the mil managed it with 243 & 243.1 but then that was UHF. Personaly I don't think it would become the new chat freq, most CAT/GAT listen out on 121.5 not to keep upto date with the footie but to be in a position to help others and to be helped. Many have benifitted from that over the years. A-lot of CAT operators require it as SOP too. Most people therefore listen out on it for good reason and as we generaly only listen to 2 box's selecting a practise freq would not appear high on anyones list. If someone does want to chat freight train is on 123.4 and it would be just as easy to switch to that as to a practise freq.
So that leaves us with trying to stop people misusing 121.5 be they CAT or GAT. How do we do that ? I made some suggestions earlier so just wondered what you thought. Mariners tend to have the same snag with channel 16 so maybe its just insoluble but surly with a group of professionals that cannot be true ?
As an aside CAT abuse of 121.5 is always going to be more noticable as it tends to occur at 30 something thousand feet and has a large footprint. Equaly its CAT who hear it all for the same reason.
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Seems obvious...
If people are concerned about the amount of chatter on 'point-five' then surely we should all look at ways in which we can reduce the negligent / inadvertant use before we start on legitimate usage.
All through our training we're all taught to be accuarte in everything that we do - so why should that stop at the radio?
Personally, not in favour of 'training freq' - conditioning may we'll send somebody there when they really wanted 'point-five'. Sorry, can't take that chance.
All through our training we're all taught to be accuarte in everything that we do - so why should that stop at the radio?
Personally, not in favour of 'training freq' - conditioning may we'll send somebody there when they really wanted 'point-five'. Sorry, can't take that chance.
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At the risk of a proper lambasting from the commercial pilots here, I feel that a Practice Pan IS something that GA pilots should do. Please remember that you guys use the radio all day long and are used to it. Some GA guys, although perfectly good pilots, are not used to transmitting on a radio and become self concious that everyone can hear them. I myself don't have a problem, and in the past have been accused by instructors of sounding like a commercial pilot (nothing wrong with that for my money) but for those that are not totally at home with the radio it can seem a daunting place to be. If the wheel is coming off the last thing you need is to be worried about making a call to controller in D&D incase you "fluff your lines", therefore a practice now and again not only might give a bored controller something to do, but also means that the pilot is familiar with speaking to them, and when the day arrives when it's for real will feel more inclined to call them whilst the problem is still that, a problem, not an incident!
Finally, although we do appreciate the fact the the commercial guys monitor 121.5, it could help by relay if we are out of range, please don't appoint yourselves to role of guard police. If you have a problem with someone using the frequency for a practice then report it through the proper channels, son't launch into someone that might be scared of using the box in the first place!
Finally, although we do appreciate the fact the the commercial guys monitor 121.5, it could help by relay if we are out of range, please don't appoint yourselves to role of guard police. If you have a problem with someone using the frequency for a practice then report it through the proper channels, son't launch into someone that might be scared of using the box in the first place!
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I'll hold my hands up and say I was one of those low-houred PPL studes who made a practice pan call on 121.5 a few weeks ago.
Before making the call, which my instructor had made me write down in the pre-flight, we listened out on frequency for 5/10 mins to make sure it was clear and then proceeded. We had to climb a bit to get a fix, my instructor taking control of any unexpected communications to minimise time on frequency, but the professionalism of the service was of the highest standard and I'd like to thank them for their time. Beforehand there was a mysterious and almost 'no-go' feeling of calling 121.5, but now I know what is on the other end and what can be expected, this feeling has evaporated.
Don't get me wrong, I won't be on 121.5 as first port of call if I've missed a waypoint by a couple of mins. As taught and learnt, I'll be looking out for landmarks, doing a few orbits to confirm my location, calculating what could have gone wrong, checking the fan lines on my chart, calling for QDMs, using NDBs, maybe talk to another airfield who can help me out, etc. etc., but it has certainly given me confidence in knowing that there is a safety net and exactly what to do if everything goes belly up. Much better than me trundling through CAS causing airliners to break off their approach, or stumbling into IMC and ending up as another CFIT stat (I don't have any intentions whatsoever of doing so, but mistakes happen and life is occassionally unpredictable).
Apologies to any CAT pilots who got a little miffed at the call
. If I'm ever fortunate enough to fly as a career and hear a practise PAN on 121.5, I'll certainly remember the day I made mine and think there is another pilot who has learnt to use 121.5 correctly. From what I understand reading the thread, it may get a little tiresome hearing it 3 or 4 times a day, but I wouldn't begrudge them a practice pan, knowing how it has given me a much greater understanding, more confidence with and greater respect for the service provided on 121.5. I certainly won't be asking for football scores on it.
Just thought I would add a persepctive from a PPL stude.
Before making the call, which my instructor had made me write down in the pre-flight, we listened out on frequency for 5/10 mins to make sure it was clear and then proceeded. We had to climb a bit to get a fix, my instructor taking control of any unexpected communications to minimise time on frequency, but the professionalism of the service was of the highest standard and I'd like to thank them for their time. Beforehand there was a mysterious and almost 'no-go' feeling of calling 121.5, but now I know what is on the other end and what can be expected, this feeling has evaporated.
Don't get me wrong, I won't be on 121.5 as first port of call if I've missed a waypoint by a couple of mins. As taught and learnt, I'll be looking out for landmarks, doing a few orbits to confirm my location, calculating what could have gone wrong, checking the fan lines on my chart, calling for QDMs, using NDBs, maybe talk to another airfield who can help me out, etc. etc., but it has certainly given me confidence in knowing that there is a safety net and exactly what to do if everything goes belly up. Much better than me trundling through CAS causing airliners to break off their approach, or stumbling into IMC and ending up as another CFIT stat (I don't have any intentions whatsoever of doing so, but mistakes happen and life is occassionally unpredictable).
Apologies to any CAT pilots who got a little miffed at the call
. If I'm ever fortunate enough to fly as a career and hear a practise PAN on 121.5, I'll certainly remember the day I made mine and think there is another pilot who has learnt to use 121.5 correctly. From what I understand reading the thread, it may get a little tiresome hearing it 3 or 4 times a day, but I wouldn't begrudge them a practice pan, knowing how it has given me a much greater understanding, more confidence with and greater respect for the service provided on 121.5. I certainly won't be asking for football scores on it.Just thought I would add a persepctive from a PPL stude.
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I think most of us CAT guy's have no issue with the need to practise and would encourage it for all the reasons given even if some of us would rather it was on a training freq. I have to accept that getting such a freq is somewhat unlikely. So keep on practising and enjoy your flying.
What we all want is 121.5 in the UK kept for what it was meant for and that means cutting down the mis-use of it. PPs are not a mis-use in the UK and are fine.
How we do that is the real issue.
What we all want is 121.5 in the UK kept for what it was meant for and that means cutting down the mis-use of it. PPs are not a mis-use in the UK and are fine.
How we do that is the real issue.