View Poll Results: Should there be a separate frequency for practice distress calls instead of 121.5?
Yes (I am a professional pilot)
363
45.60%
No (I am a professional pilot)
240
30.15%
Yes (I am a recreational pilot)
79
9.92%
No (I am a recreational pilot)
78
9.80%
Don't know or don't care (I may or may not even be a pilot)
36
4.52%
Voters: 796. This poll is closed
Abuse on 121.5
Join Date: Feb 2006
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I monitor guard as SOP , don't mind if we hear practice calls but get just as irritated as others when it is abused, However I sometimes wonder if it was a 'silent' frequency would I realise in time my COMMS was not working and was I about to become another statistic of 'PLOC'? The lack of 'chat' on 121.5 has alerted me twice now to a 'sleeping' receiver.
Last edited by 1A380; 27th Feb 2007 at 19:25. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well said spannerless:
It should be a two way thing. As a PPL I have, on a number of occasions (mostly overseas) acted as a conduit to pass airways clearances etc between ATC and CAT who, for one reason or another, were unable to hear each other.
The first time it happened was on a flight from Larnaca to Beirut in a PA28. listened as Beirut tried to pass a clearance to a Middle East Airlines Airbus. Several attempts were made before I offered to act as a conduit. ATC accepeted my offer and I passed on the details to the ME jet. The Beirut controller made a point of coming to thank me on landing (which was nice
!)
One of the main reasons for feeling able to offer help was having learnt to fly in busy SE England airspace and having 121.5 disciplines driven into me from day one of training. Oh, that and being able to practice calls once in a blue moon with those always helpful D&D people.
My point is that we can be there for each other, that we are not in competition for resources and that most (if not all) PPL's strive to be good airmen/women in the same way that our professional counterparts do.
It really is 2-way-traffic!
I remember one such afternoon between myself and a passing aircraft communications were passed to the relevent agencies a lost aviator was able to return safely with no loss of aircraft or life (Note a commercial aircraft helping a training GA aircraft!).
Isn't that how aviation is supposed to be?
Isn't that how aviation is supposed to be?
The first time it happened was on a flight from Larnaca to Beirut in a PA28. listened as Beirut tried to pass a clearance to a Middle East Airlines Airbus. Several attempts were made before I offered to act as a conduit. ATC accepeted my offer and I passed on the details to the ME jet. The Beirut controller made a point of coming to thank me on landing (which was nice
!)One of the main reasons for feeling able to offer help was having learnt to fly in busy SE England airspace and having 121.5 disciplines driven into me from day one of training. Oh, that and being able to practice calls once in a blue moon with those always helpful D&D people.
My point is that we can be there for each other, that we are not in competition for resources and that most (if not all) PPL's strive to be good airmen/women in the same way that our professional counterparts do.
It really is 2-way-traffic!
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quite right it should be 2-way and we should look after each other. This should in no way become a them and us thing. We all share the same sky and the risks involved with being in it.
I agree with torquewrench that CAT needs to clean up its act and that has to be the 1st step. The only way that will happen is if misuse is reported appropriately. Maybe fines could be introduced for companies with a poor record ! That ought to focus a few minds especially if 3 points get added to your license ....
Then perhaps the issue of a seperate frequency could be looked at. I accept the evidence that PPs are infrequent but Murphy will have his say and the emerg wil occur when the freq is blocked. Also how many GA pilots are discouraged from using 121.5 for PPs as they know its an emerg freq and don't want to cause hassle or block it. If there was a practise freq maybe more people would feel able to use it more often and that means better training for all.
I agree with torquewrench that CAT needs to clean up its act and that has to be the 1st step. The only way that will happen is if misuse is reported appropriately. Maybe fines could be introduced for companies with a poor record ! That ought to focus a few minds especially if 3 points get added to your license ....
Then perhaps the issue of a seperate frequency could be looked at. I accept the evidence that PPs are infrequent but Murphy will have his say and the emerg wil occur when the freq is blocked. Also how many GA pilots are discouraged from using 121.5 for PPs as they know its an emerg freq and don't want to cause hassle or block it. If there was a practise freq maybe more people would feel able to use it more often and that means better training for all.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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This subject ; practice Pan's on 121.5; has long been something i really don't understand.
I was tought that 121.5 is an Emergency frequency, and should be used for that purpose ONLY.
I've posted before here on Pprune on the subject before , and i think it's a very wise idea to create a seperate frequency for practice pan's.
I was tought that 121.5 is an Emergency frequency, and should be used for that purpose ONLY.
I've posted before here on Pprune on the subject before , and i think it's a very wise idea to create a seperate frequency for practice pan's.
From slam_dunk:
Yes, but the question that I and several others are asking is why you regard Practice PANs as such a problem, when the VAST MAJORITY of non-urgent traffic comes from commercial aircraft. Only a small proportion is practice PANs.
Shouldn't you be more concerned about the major causes of non-urgent traffic, which are erroneous commercial calls, exchanging football scores etc? Why are you picking on practice PANs? At least they have a useful safety training element, which (with the greatest of respect) exchanging football scores do not. If we are to have a separate frequency for practice PANs (slim chance), should we also have one for football scores?
I was tought that 121.5 is an Emergency frequency, and should be used for that purpose ONLY.
Shouldn't you be more concerned about the major causes of non-urgent traffic, which are erroneous commercial calls, exchanging football scores etc? Why are you picking on practice PANs? At least they have a useful safety training element, which (with the greatest of respect) exchanging football scores do not. If we are to have a separate frequency for practice PANs (slim chance), should we also have one for football scores?
I Have Control
Join Date: May 2004
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Human Rights
Everyone should be able to transmit whatever they like on 121.5. After all, it's their human right, yes?
Or maybe , just maybe, there should be a dedicated freq. for emergencies only. The debate goes on.................
Or maybe , just maybe, there should be a dedicated freq. for emergencies only. The debate goes on.................
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Maybe there should be a separate frequency for the football scores and the daily chat show?
Wiat a minute.... isn't that 123.45?
Or use 122.75 and 122.85. It'll upset those damn GA pilots no end.
Wiat a minute.... isn't that 123.45?
Or use 122.75 and 122.85. It'll upset those damn GA pilots no end.
Join Date: Aug 2005
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I hate all this bickering amonst people who may never have had to use 121.5. I have had to use it andI will always be grateful to both D&D and the lovely Emirates Pilot who relayed messages as I had, amongst other things, radio problems. PLEASE do NOT stop listening out.
What if on a nice sunny weekend day, the individual governments of the whole of Western Europe decide that triangulation must be practiced as often as posible on a real emergency frequency.
The French calling PANE pratisse, PANE pratisse, je suis un petite cessna..
The Germans calling ALAAARM! PAAN!!! PAAN!!! vor praktis ja!
The Dutch pgrrraktis PAN, pappa hoooootel alfaaaaa bgrrraaaaavooo sharlie...
Then the Belgians...
The Danes...
The Irish..
The poor English chap 12 miles southwest of Aylesbury who is really having a hard time finding his way home will have to wait on his turn. I guess.
The French calling PANE pratisse, PANE pratisse, je suis un petite cessna..
The Germans calling ALAAARM! PAAN!!! PAAN!!! vor praktis ja!
The Dutch pgrrraktis PAN, pappa hoooootel alfaaaaa bgrrraaaaavooo sharlie...
Then the Belgians...
The Danes...
The Irish..
The poor English chap 12 miles southwest of Aylesbury who is really having a hard time finding his way home will have to wait on his turn. I guess.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Penko - yes BUT he will also have to wait until the 90% of RT traffic from CAT shutup with their idle chatter.
I do not have any information about the rest of the world but in the UK CAT is in a minority of air movements and also a minority of registered aircraft, so please get things into perspective. Please dont expect the MAJORITY to bow down because you cannot accept you are simply wrong.
I do not have any information about the rest of the world but in the UK CAT is in a minority of air movements and also a minority of registered aircraft, so please get things into perspective. Please dont expect the MAJORITY to bow down because you cannot accept you are simply wrong.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Boneman,
"Err...you need to practice a distress call because???"
What "Twilight Zone" are you in?
Even a total ignoramus like me has by now figured out from reading this thread, that in the UK a PAN call on 121.5 will get you a position fix within seconds, IF you make the correct call, and IF you can handle the reply in real time, something you don't learn from books.
So rather than flying into a stuffed hill while trying to figure out the procedure, you practice.
Not to mention (too many before me have done so) that the controllers also appreciate practicing, and prefer having somebody coming on the frequency already knowing what she/he is doing..... rather than commenting the football scores.
But then I expect you're the sort of person who doesn't know where you spare tyre is in your car.
"Err...you need to practice a distress call because???"
What "Twilight Zone" are you in?
Even a total ignoramus like me has by now figured out from reading this thread, that in the UK a PAN call on 121.5 will get you a position fix within seconds, IF you make the correct call, and IF you can handle the reply in real time, something you don't learn from books.
So rather than flying into a stuffed hill while trying to figure out the procedure, you practice.
Not to mention (too many before me have done so) that the controllers also appreciate practicing, and prefer having somebody coming on the frequency already knowing what she/he is doing..... rather than commenting the football scores.
But then I expect you're the sort of person who doesn't know where you spare tyre is in your car.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Consider this - in the face of ovewhelming evidence that the abuse is from the "professional" drivers why is it that those same people cannot accept it is they who are the problem and still try to put the spotlight back to a very very few GA pilots? Do you take this attitude onto the flight deck with you? What does this say about your professionalism?
Join Date: Nov 2003
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What a shame the thread is descending into pointless bickering and point scoring.
On the whole I had the impression that most here GAT/CAT/ATC accept that CAT are the main culprits as far as misuse goes. The only real finger pointing has been at the muppet who swore on .5
Can we please keep this constructive and not let it get into a them and us thing.
On the whole I had the impression that most here GAT/CAT/ATC accept that CAT are the main culprits as far as misuse goes. The only real finger pointing has been at the muppet who swore on .5
Can we please keep this constructive and not let it get into a them and us thing.
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Ashling
As a PPL I agree with your sentiment.
It seems to me that the situation is thus...
1) The UK works differently to other states
2) The UK system is filed with ICAO
3) We all (I hope) agree that a discrete frequency would be good
4) Sadly that appears unlikely to happen
5) We all have to live with each other in the airspace
6) We need to make the best of the current situation
7) As a PPL, that means I should accept inadvertent transmissions on .5 as part of the game, since CAT pilots are not perfect and given the frequency of flights, there are bound to be some mistakes
8) On a reciprocal basis CAT pilots need to accept PPs and TFs, because the D&D cell encourage those for all the reasons stated in the thread
9) None of us should use the frequency for chat or other non appropriate purposes
10) No pilot, regardless of his/her licence privileges, should abuse anyone on any frequency
I realise that some foreign pilots don't particularly like this PP and TF practice and I can understand why , but it is the way things are done in the UK.
Some people don't like the Brit cuisine either, but is comes with being here too
Safe flying everyone.
As a PPL I agree with your sentiment.
It seems to me that the situation is thus...
1) The UK works differently to other states
2) The UK system is filed with ICAO
3) We all (I hope) agree that a discrete frequency would be good
4) Sadly that appears unlikely to happen
5) We all have to live with each other in the airspace
6) We need to make the best of the current situation
7) As a PPL, that means I should accept inadvertent transmissions on .5 as part of the game, since CAT pilots are not perfect and given the frequency of flights, there are bound to be some mistakes
8) On a reciprocal basis CAT pilots need to accept PPs and TFs, because the D&D cell encourage those for all the reasons stated in the thread
9) None of us should use the frequency for chat or other non appropriate purposes
10) No pilot, regardless of his/her licence privileges, should abuse anyone on any frequency
I realise that some foreign pilots don't particularly like this PP and TF practice and I can understand why , but it is the way things are done in the UK.
Some people don't like the Brit cuisine either, but is comes with being here too
Safe flying everyone.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Hey Gert... do two... they're actually small. Every instructor should have their students demonstrate a practice "PAN... PAN... PAN". It's a two way street... The student is able to learn what to do if a problem arises, especially during the early stages of solo and cross country flying... and the controller can practice their procedures too.
The fact is, the abusers of 121.5 are here to stay, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.
At the end of the day is it such an imposition to practice and promote safety?
The fact is, the abusers of 121.5 are here to stay, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.
At the end of the day is it such an imposition to practice and promote safety?
The One Your Mother Warned You About
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At the risk of drifting the thread slightly I recently relayed on 121.5 for a helicopter VERY close to the edge of the LHR zone. He had been caught out by grot weather and was trapped in a valley unsure of what to do. Two local airfields had no VDF facility and by pure luck I knew the valley he was in (based at the same airfield) I'd like to say a big thank you to the gentleman from the Netherlands who from a position west of Ireland kept on telling me I was on guard, and in doing so kept trampling on communications between myself and D&D and a very frightened low time PPL who couldn't hear D&D due to his altitude.
Gentleman in the helo landed safely in a field. Gentleman in the 747, have you no idea what "for relay PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN" means you idiot?
A call of "you're on guard" is on thing. trying to start an argument in that situation is utterly stupid. I didn't swear at you on 121.5 but I certainly did over the intercom.
Gentleman in the helo landed safely in a field. Gentleman in the 747, have you no idea what "for relay PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN" means you idiot?
A call of "you're on guard" is on thing. trying to start an argument in that situation is utterly stupid. I didn't swear at you on 121.5 but I certainly did over the intercom.
Just a small observation.
We in UK aviation are usually the first in line to condemn countries like Spain and France for speaking in their native tongue on the ATC frequency. Something that ICAO allows them to do.
Then why are we so surprised and defensive ('it is our right!, we filed a difference with ICAO!') when local and foreign pilots question this NON STANDARD use of a discrete international emergency frequency?
Must be human nature.
I say:
1. One language in aviation
2. GPS-es in every single aircraft.
Fair deal?
We in UK aviation are usually the first in line to condemn countries like Spain and France for speaking in their native tongue on the ATC frequency. Something that ICAO allows them to do.
Then why are we so surprised and defensive ('it is our right!, we filed a difference with ICAO!') when local and foreign pilots question this NON STANDARD use of a discrete international emergency frequency?
Must be human nature.
I say:
1. One language in aviation
2. GPS-es in every single aircraft.
Fair deal?