Adam Air B737 Heavy Landing
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A question from an SLF member...
Is it really likely that damage like that could occur unless there was something pretty seriously wrong with the airframe already? I'd have guessed the gear would collapse first and/or some pretty extensive injuries to pax before the frame would buckle like that...unless there were cracks or corrosion or something.
Bobbsy
Is it really likely that damage like that could occur unless there was something pretty seriously wrong with the airframe already? I'd have guessed the gear would collapse first and/or some pretty extensive injuries to pax before the frame would buckle like that...unless there were cracks or corrosion or something.
Bobbsy
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http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...eos/MD-80.mpeg
Servus, Simon
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Don't some of the MD-80 family have their tails held on with exploding bolts? The idea being to blow the tail off and use the hole for escape after a crash.
Could this video snip just show that those bolts exceeded the strength limit before something else gave way? I don't think that you can extrapolate to other types of aircraft.
Could this video snip just show that those bolts exceeded the strength limit before something else gave way? I don't think that you can extrapolate to other types of aircraft.
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Adam Air
Does anyone have an opinion on the Adam Air "hard landing" in Indonesia. It appears that the structural damage is more consistent with air frame failure through fatigue.
Yarra
Yarra
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the gear assembly consists of two really tough metal "legs". if you drop the aircraft flat down, they will punch upwards into the wing, just like with smaller aircraft. you will see wrinkles on the upper wing surface. those heavy duty metal parts of the gear will always be the last to be deformed. it's like the motor block in a car. compared to this part everything else is rather "soft".
seeing the damage in this current case i yet would assume an combination of high G loads and fatigue of the frame.
seeing the damage in this current case i yet would assume an combination of high G loads and fatigue of the frame.
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[quote)Don't some of the MD-80 family have their tails held on with exploding bolts? The idea being to blow the tail off and use the hole for escape after a crash.[/quote]
It's only the tailcone, not the tail that you can separate from the fuselage for evacuating purposes.
It's only the tailcone, not the tail that you can separate from the fuselage for evacuating purposes.
short flights long nights
and they want to fly from Perth to Bali.....???????
Two questions :
1. How do these guys get airframe insurance ? What sort of rates are they paying now ? Who would even offer it to them ?
2. Painting the remains white because of all the bad publicity photos that will be taken seems a wasted opportunity. Should they not have repainted it in the colours of their rivals Garuda ? !
1. How do these guys get airframe insurance ? What sort of rates are they paying now ? Who would even offer it to them ?
2. Painting the remains white because of all the bad publicity photos that will be taken seems a wasted opportunity. Should they not have repainted it in the colours of their rivals Garuda ? !
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It appears that the structural damage is more consistent with air frame failure through fatigue.
"Have you ever noticed that 73s look a bit skewed when they taxi?"
"Have you ever noticed that 73s look a bit skewed when they taxi?"
'Tis because nose leg is offset from the aircrafts centre line, so when viewed from behind looks like it's crabbing
There is some play in the main gear.Thats how the aircraft, which has no Rudder control on Auto Pilot, is able to autoland in a cross wind.
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Seems like the Adams family are par for the course!
Not too good on the ground or at sea either
From the BBC website:
Indonesian ferry suddenly sinks
The burned out ferry was sitting in waters just off Jakarta
An Indonesian ferry involved in a deadly mid-voyage fire on Thursday has sunk with several safety investigators, police and journalists on board.
Medical workers said a TV cameraman had died, two people were seriously hurt and an unknown number are missing.
It is not known how many were aboard when the Levina I ferry suddenly leaned over and sank off Jakarta's port.
Earlier, the death toll from Thursday's fire rose to 41 after rescuers found 21 bodies drifting at sea, officials said.
The BBC's Lucy Williamson in Jakarta says that the charred hulk had been towed to waters just off Jakarta's Tanjung Priok port so officials trying to uncover the cause of Thursday's fire could begin their examination.
'Fighting for life'
"It had been anchored at the time, but it was tilting on one side," Lieutenant-Colonel Hendra Pakan told the Reuters news agency.
Medical workers at the port said a cameraman working for Indonesian television had been confirmed dead and another was in emergency care after being rescued from the sinking ship.
An investigator who was examining the ferry when it sank was also said to be fighting for her life.
RECENT INDONESIAN DISASTERS
Ferry fire 22 Feb 2007: At least seven die as Bangka ferry catches fire
Train crash 16 Jan 2007: At least five die as train falls from bridge in Java
Landslide 12 Jan 2007: Landslide kills at least 16 on island of Sangihe
Plane crash 1 Jan 2007: Passenger plane carrying 102 people crashes in sea west of Sulawesi island
Ferry sinks 30 Dec 2006: More than 350 lost as ferry sinks between Borneo and Java
Stampede 20 Dec 2006: 10 killed, dozens injured in a stampede at Java pop concert
Earthquake 18 Dec 2006: Seven killed, about 100 injured in a quake in Sumatra
Indonesia's public perils
Thursday's fire was the latest in a string of deadly transport incidents in Indonesia, leading to concern over its safety record.
The Levina I ferry was 80km (50 miles) from port Tanjung Priok when a fire broke out.
Some 250 passengers are known to have survived, but there are fears that some people are still missing.
Navy officials said the bodies found earlier on Sunday were discovered by navy vessels and fishing boats. The previous figure for the dead was 20.
"Some [bodies] were picked up directly from the sea by the warships while others were found by fishermen around two nearby islands," Indonesia's navy spokesman Lt Col Hendra Pakan told the Associated Press news agency.
"They were all discovered about 30 miles (48km) away from the scene," the spokesman said.
Navy ships are still continuing the search for survivors.
Officials fear there could have been many more people on board than the 307 registered passengers, as Indonesian ferries regularly have stowaways, trying to avoid paying fares.
Transport perils
The Levina I was on its way from Jakarta to Bangka island off Sumatra when the blaze broke out on Thursday morning.
Many of the survivors from the fire hurled themselves off the blazing vessel into the sea, to escape the flames.
Yas Rijal, 33, was with his wife and son on the upper deck when the fire broke out.
"Suddenly flames burst from the lower deck. The crew ordered us to put on yellow life vests and we jumped," he told the AP news agency.
The accident is the most deadly sea disaster since a passenger ferry carrying around 600 people capsized in late December off Java island, killing more than half of the passengers.
Indonesia, an archipelago of thousands of islands, relies on ferries to provide a cheap and extensive passenger network.
But many vessels are badly maintained, and there have been a number of recent accidents. Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has recently formed a team to look into transport safety.
Not too good on the ground or at sea either
From the BBC website:
Indonesian ferry suddenly sinks
The burned out ferry was sitting in waters just off JakartaAn Indonesian ferry involved in a deadly mid-voyage fire on Thursday has sunk with several safety investigators, police and journalists on board.
Medical workers said a TV cameraman had died, two people were seriously hurt and an unknown number are missing.
It is not known how many were aboard when the Levina I ferry suddenly leaned over and sank off Jakarta's port.
Earlier, the death toll from Thursday's fire rose to 41 after rescuers found 21 bodies drifting at sea, officials said.
The BBC's Lucy Williamson in Jakarta says that the charred hulk had been towed to waters just off Jakarta's Tanjung Priok port so officials trying to uncover the cause of Thursday's fire could begin their examination.
'Fighting for life'
"It had been anchored at the time, but it was tilting on one side," Lieutenant-Colonel Hendra Pakan told the Reuters news agency.
Medical workers at the port said a cameraman working for Indonesian television had been confirmed dead and another was in emergency care after being rescued from the sinking ship.
An investigator who was examining the ferry when it sank was also said to be fighting for her life.
RECENT INDONESIAN DISASTERS Ferry fire 22 Feb 2007: At least seven die as Bangka ferry catches fire
Train crash 16 Jan 2007: At least five die as train falls from bridge in Java
Landslide 12 Jan 2007: Landslide kills at least 16 on island of Sangihe
Plane crash 1 Jan 2007: Passenger plane carrying 102 people crashes in sea west of Sulawesi island
Ferry sinks 30 Dec 2006: More than 350 lost as ferry sinks between Borneo and Java
Stampede 20 Dec 2006: 10 killed, dozens injured in a stampede at Java pop concert
Earthquake 18 Dec 2006: Seven killed, about 100 injured in a quake in Sumatra
Indonesia's public perils
Thursday's fire was the latest in a string of deadly transport incidents in Indonesia, leading to concern over its safety record.
The Levina I ferry was 80km (50 miles) from port Tanjung Priok when a fire broke out.
Some 250 passengers are known to have survived, but there are fears that some people are still missing.
Navy officials said the bodies found earlier on Sunday were discovered by navy vessels and fishing boats. The previous figure for the dead was 20.
"Some [bodies] were picked up directly from the sea by the warships while others were found by fishermen around two nearby islands," Indonesia's navy spokesman Lt Col Hendra Pakan told the Associated Press news agency.
"They were all discovered about 30 miles (48km) away from the scene," the spokesman said.
Navy ships are still continuing the search for survivors.
Officials fear there could have been many more people on board than the 307 registered passengers, as Indonesian ferries regularly have stowaways, trying to avoid paying fares.
Transport perils
The Levina I was on its way from Jakarta to Bangka island off Sumatra when the blaze broke out on Thursday morning.
Many of the survivors from the fire hurled themselves off the blazing vessel into the sea, to escape the flames.
Yas Rijal, 33, was with his wife and son on the upper deck when the fire broke out.
"Suddenly flames burst from the lower deck. The crew ordered us to put on yellow life vests and we jumped," he told the AP news agency.
The accident is the most deadly sea disaster since a passenger ferry carrying around 600 people capsized in late December off Java island, killing more than half of the passengers.
Indonesia, an archipelago of thousands of islands, relies on ferries to provide a cheap and extensive passenger network.
But many vessels are badly maintained, and there have been a number of recent accidents. Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has recently formed a team to look into transport safety.
ex-Tanker
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That is one tough old bird
Quite remarkable that the airframe held as well as it did! What you don't see are all the ruined systems / hydraulics /avionics in there.
The remark about frying pans is pretty near the mark. There are quite a few throw away components - from the gear on up - maybe even the wing structure.
The MD - 80 has no explosive bolts - the tail cone is jettisonable if required by the cabin crew (with the rear stairs still retracted) and then a slide deploys.
The remark about frying pans is pretty near the mark. There are quite a few throw away components - from the gear on up - maybe even the wing structure.
The MD - 80 has no explosive bolts - the tail cone is jettisonable if required by the cabin crew (with the rear stairs still retracted) and then a slide deploys.
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"I think, the following video explains, how such a crack can occur - there's quite some shock wave running through the fuselage ... And no, the gear didn't collapse on that flight either, though the plane really broke apart and lost its whole tail.
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...eos/MD-80.mpeg
Servus, Simon"
Thanks for the link, Simon. That MD-80, fus. 909, had less than 1,000 hours, and was still in Douglas Fright Test program when an FAA pilot made that great landing. One broken ankle was the only human casualty. A few years later, that plane was repaired and put back in fright test program, and later sold.
So, no, it did not require prior damage for the Adam 737 to break like that.
About the same time that DAC fus. 909 lost it's tail, a second MD-80 in fright test, fus. 917, belonging to Swissair, skidded off the runway at Yuma after an intentional no-flaps landing, and the gear collapsed. They brought in a brand new crane to lift the plane and put it back on its gear. Unfortunately, the crane's boom went right down and sliced the plane in half.
Swissair sent a telex: "Get OUR name off YOUR plane." That plane was never repaired.
GB
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...eos/MD-80.mpeg
Servus, Simon"
Thanks for the link, Simon. That MD-80, fus. 909, had less than 1,000 hours, and was still in Douglas Fright Test program when an FAA pilot made that great landing. One broken ankle was the only human casualty. A few years later, that plane was repaired and put back in fright test program, and later sold.
So, no, it did not require prior damage for the Adam 737 to break like that.
About the same time that DAC fus. 909 lost it's tail, a second MD-80 in fright test, fus. 917, belonging to Swissair, skidded off the runway at Yuma after an intentional no-flaps landing, and the gear collapsed. They brought in a brand new crane to lift the plane and put it back on its gear. Unfortunately, the crane's boom went right down and sliced the plane in half.
Swissair sent a telex: "Get OUR name off YOUR plane." That plane was never repaired.
GB
Thread Starter
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So, now 18 more pilots grounded, 150 staff told to pack their bags...
All this perhaps due to someone(s) wanting to put something extra without the pilot knowing... perhaps the standard old trick of slapping 800kg-1.2tons of stuff at the bottom but still recording the right numbers on the aircraft... adding an unnoticeable 2 - 5kt to handling difference...
PK-KAR
All this perhaps due to someone(s) wanting to put something extra without the pilot knowing... perhaps the standard old trick of slapping 800kg-1.2tons of stuff at the bottom but still recording the right numbers on the aircraft... adding an unnoticeable 2 - 5kt to handling difference...
PK-KAR
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if u want 2-5 knots Vref difference you will need way more than one extra ton. on the 737NG 1 ton more or less equals 1 knot in Vref. should be roughly the same on the classics since the airframe is very much the same.