Ryanair: approach incidents in the news
Paxing All Over The World
Regular pax speaking.
chateau57 My comment was in another thread that has been merged. I understand about RYR and STN and CAA/IAA, the reason that I mentioned CAA was that I was drifting the thread away from RYR as I think there is a wider issue and many other posters have been pointing in that direction too.
Select Pedant Mode: RYR was referred to as the doyen of the Stock Exchange, the most respected or prominent person in a particular field. Although they certainly are prominent, I suggest that they are more the darling of the Stock. Deselect Pedant Mode.
When I worked in the City of London in the late 80s, there was a culture in a number of companies that encouraged financial dealers to break the guide lines to make more money BUT if they were caught - they were on their own and hung out to dry.
chateau57 My comment was in another thread that has been merged. I understand about RYR and STN and CAA/IAA, the reason that I mentioned CAA was that I was drifting the thread away from RYR as I think there is a wider issue and many other posters have been pointing in that direction too.
Select Pedant Mode: RYR was referred to as the doyen of the Stock Exchange, the most respected or prominent person in a particular field. Although they certainly are prominent, I suggest that they are more the darling of the Stock. Deselect Pedant Mode.
When I worked in the City of London in the late 80s, there was a culture in a number of companies that encouraged financial dealers to break the guide lines to make more money BUT if they were caught - they were on their own and hung out to dry.
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Beernice - thanks for the insight from your perspective - especially concerning CDA - I can definitely empathise about that. While I personally wouldn't mind encouragement towards CDA being used wherever feasible/planned for (wrt what you say about lack of ATIS,etc, at some airfields) and at the discretion of the crew - I agree that the pressure you describe concerning CDA's is at the least undue and NOT conducive to a safe operating philosophy.
As far as the duty time is concerned, as intimated by you and many others for a long time - they (RA) are sticking to the regs - can you honestly see any change to that situation without external pressure (regualtory) or, obviously we hope NOT, incidents becoming an accident? We already had one 'shock and horror' documentary about RA - from what I sense, it had zero practical impact on RA or the public's urge to fly with RA.
captainpaddy:
Bristol runways 'issue'. - As ONE example only.
1. Pilots (and others) discuss on this forum.
2. Reporters turn up looking for the 'truth'.
3. Media, for the most part, ignore 'enlightenment' which was sought here.
4. Certain 'managerial' level person continues to bull'''', "runway is safe", etc. Pretty much unchallenged.
5. Much of the public left totally confused, others probably thinking that certain operators are whinging about nothing.
Q.E.D. IMHO.
In an ideal world, I would probably agree with you. But then, RA management/MOL wouldn't behave the way they do, RA pilots would have nothing to complain about, there would be no 'incidents' and this thread wouldn't exist.
As for stating my opinion here:
..........whatever.
As far as the duty time is concerned, as intimated by you and many others for a long time - they (RA) are sticking to the regs - can you honestly see any change to that situation without external pressure (regualtory) or, obviously we hope NOT, incidents becoming an accident? We already had one 'shock and horror' documentary about RA - from what I sense, it had zero practical impact on RA or the public's urge to fly with RA.
captainpaddy:
Bristol runways 'issue'. - As ONE example only.
1. Pilots (and others) discuss on this forum.
2. Reporters turn up looking for the 'truth'.
3. Media, for the most part, ignore 'enlightenment' which was sought here.
4. Certain 'managerial' level person continues to bull'''', "runway is safe", etc. Pretty much unchallenged.
5. Much of the public left totally confused, others probably thinking that certain operators are whinging about nothing.
Q.E.D. IMHO.
In an ideal world, I would probably agree with you. But then, RA management/MOL wouldn't behave the way they do, RA pilots would have nothing to complain about, there would be no 'incidents' and this thread wouldn't exist.
As for stating my opinion here:
No, no, there's no need to thank me. i insist.
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Today's Irish Times reports that the IAA has completed its investigation of the FR landings in "below limits" visibility at STN last April.
Of the fifteen aircraft involved, four landed in visibility of less than 500m (RVR) and should have diverted; another eleven had visibility of 550m and were okay to land. The IAA said that due to lighting being less than it would normally have been (no TDZ or centreline lights available), the visibility standards were higher. FR's Ray Conway said that the NOTAM on the issue was misleading as it didn't say that the RVR was affected.
The IAA said that since this was a technical breach rather than a critical safety issue, no further action was being taken. The IAA was satisfied that the airline had taken the necessary steps to address the issue, including extra training for the crews involved.
Of the fifteen aircraft involved, four landed in visibility of less than 500m (RVR) and should have diverted; another eleven had visibility of 550m and were okay to land. The IAA said that due to lighting being less than it would normally have been (no TDZ or centreline lights available), the visibility standards were higher. FR's Ray Conway said that the NOTAM on the issue was misleading as it didn't say that the RVR was affected.
The IAA said that since this was a technical breach rather than a critical safety issue, no further action was being taken. The IAA was satisfied that the airline had taken the necessary steps to address the issue, including extra training for the crews involved.
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theamrad,
No need to take it personally, it's just my poor sense of humour.
Nonetheless, I do not see your logic. I agree that 9 times out of 10 the media will get it wrong and follow the wrong lead or get advice from the wrong person. But do you really think that's is, it's all done and there's just no point in trying anymore? Throw the rattle out of the buggy?
If there is an issue that needs to be looked at, I am aware that I can't look into it and make a difference myself. While I may have little confidence that this case will be handled properly by papers, etc., I live in hope. If I didn't and if you and others didn't have any hope, then this forum would not exist and nobody would care.
As for akerosid's post:
Is there any more reason left to doubt the inability of the IAA? What a complete farse.
No need to take it personally, it's just my poor sense of humour.
Nonetheless, I do not see your logic. I agree that 9 times out of 10 the media will get it wrong and follow the wrong lead or get advice from the wrong person. But do you really think that's is, it's all done and there's just no point in trying anymore? Throw the rattle out of the buggy?
If there is an issue that needs to be looked at, I am aware that I can't look into it and make a difference myself. While I may have little confidence that this case will be handled properly by papers, etc., I live in hope. If I didn't and if you and others didn't have any hope, then this forum would not exist and nobody would care.
As for akerosid's post:
Is there any more reason left to doubt the inability of the IAA? What a complete farse.
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A few weeks after these incidents, our ever vigilant,"on the ball" and proactive flight operations department in Dublin, printed a section on all our flight plans (plogs) reminding us of increased RVR requirements for CAT 3 operations due to reduced lighting availability during work on runway at Stansted.
The words "horse" stable door" and "bolted" spring to mind !
PS
The same comment is still being printed daily on our plogs - several months after the work was completed and the runway lighting is back to its full spec !!!
The words "horse" stable door" and "bolted" spring to mind !
PS
The same comment is still being printed daily on our plogs - several months after the work was completed and the runway lighting is back to its full spec !!!
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As if by magic, just hours after the CAA said they would have expected a decision by now from the IAA..........
Kevin Humphries from the IAA quoted in the times:
"It's easy to see how they could have been misled. A pilot could easily think that because it's category three, an RVR of 550 metres doesn't apply. But lighting is an integral part of the instrument landing system and with less lights available, visibility needs to be greater," he said.
Every LVP course I have been on or heard of has emphasised that many many things (including lighting) will affect minima and increase RVR requirements. How is it possible that the IAA could say this???
No other airline was involved. How is it that every other pilot was knowledgable enough to avoid breaking the rules, but RYR wasn't? Does anyone know roughly how many airlines operate into STN??
Absolutely embarassing to be Irish. I am ashamed of the IAA.
Kevin Humphries from the IAA quoted in the times:
"It's easy to see how they could have been misled. A pilot could easily think that because it's category three, an RVR of 550 metres doesn't apply. But lighting is an integral part of the instrument landing system and with less lights available, visibility needs to be greater," he said.
Every LVP course I have been on or heard of has emphasised that many many things (including lighting) will affect minima and increase RVR requirements. How is it possible that the IAA could say this???
No other airline was involved. How is it that every other pilot was knowledgable enough to avoid breaking the rules, but RYR wasn't? Does anyone know roughly how many airlines operate into STN??
Absolutely embarassing to be Irish. I am ashamed of the IAA.
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Unbelievable
If this isn't safety critical what is ? As was said other operators avoided this snag so why did Ryanair breach it not just once but 5 times ?
There just seems to be a mounting pile of evidence that all is not well at Ryanair. What will it take for the regulator to finaly act ?
If this isn't safety critical what is ? As was said other operators avoided this snag so why did Ryanair breach it not just once but 5 times ?
There just seems to be a mounting pile of evidence that all is not well at Ryanair. What will it take for the regulator to finaly act ?
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At RYR there is a standard pre flight report time of 45 minutes. Given that crews have to be at the aircraft at STD - 25 at the latest, and allowing anything up to a 5 minute walk to the aircraft, that allows only 15 minutes to plan for a 4 sector day ! At Stansted, it is not unusual for crews to waste 5 minutes or more of this time looking for a computer terminal that works, to print off the day's flight plans and weather, and then only to find that the printer has no paper /jammed/out of toner ! 
Other airlines presumambly have sensible report times (ie 1 hour plus !) With some of our duty days being 11.50 or 11.55, and even one that is exactly 12 hours long, report times longer than 45 minutes would not allow Ryanair to roster these long days (to extract the maximum out of their crews), without the crew going into discretion.
I am not seeking to justify what happened, but its easy to see the pressure crews are under ......
Other airlines presumambly have sensible report times (ie 1 hour plus !) With some of our duty days being 11.50 or 11.55, and even one that is exactly 12 hours long, report times longer than 45 minutes would not allow Ryanair to roster these long days (to extract the maximum out of their crews), without the crew going into discretion.
I am not seeking to justify what happened, but its easy to see the pressure crews are under ......
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Ops Manuals
Ryanair are subject to the same rules, regulations and inspections as any Irish carrier and also are subject to SAFA inspections, the same as any other carrier.
This statement tells me you are not a pilot. This is the spin that Ryanair excrete ad nauseum to the media. It is utterly false.
This statement tells me you are not a pilot. This is the spin that Ryanair excrete ad nauseum to the media. It is utterly false.
Firstly, don't make statements you can't possible validate as fact: whether you believe that I am, or am not, a pilot is an OPINION and irrelevant when we are discussing regulatory issues. Secondly, you will no doubt wish to retract your erroneous statement that Ryanair is not subject to SAFA inspections and that the rules and regulations Ryanair operates to are somehow different to any other Irish carrier. My remark, was then, accurate and factual.
Airlines are self regulating. They submit an Operations Manual outlining their own rules and regulations for approval by the relevant authority and when approved they ( are supposed to) operate accordingly. The airlines have different Operations Manuals and as such operate to different rules.
Obviously there will be many similarities ( mainly to stay within manafacturer and JAR regs ) but your statement is deliberately misleading.
There are a tiny number of audits carried out by the IAA. It is not unknown for an IAA audit to consist of an IAA officer flying as the Captain of a line flight with only a Ryanair co-pilot in the cockpit. This system is completely insane.
It is normal practice within the majority of licensing authorities, JAA or otherwise, to have an Authority inspector current on the type of aircraft "his" carriers operate. The Authority usually requires any carrier to provide a conversion course, line training and line flying to allow the inspector to "get up to speed" if the aircraft is new to the register. As the inspector normally flies as Commander your insanity remark is simply inflammatory.
An inspection flight involves the IAA Ops Inspector observing from the jump seat; routine flights to retain currency and inspection flights are completely different and separate.
The flaws are many but it is worth pointing out the conflict of interests where the IAA officer is effectively completely responsible for the operation he is supposed to be impartially auditing. It is also worth pointing out that this does not happen with other carriers
Ryanair bashing is a popular pastime on this board, however, when a journalist is chasing fact perhaps a considered response would be more constructive.
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CDAs
The "pressure" to fly a CDA comes not from the respective airline: the "pressure" comes from the airport and the noise sensitive areas under the approach.
If you don't fly a CDA, for whatever reason, the operator receives a "snottogram" from the airport!!
If you don't fly a CDA, for whatever reason, the operator receives a "snottogram" from the airport!!
Why is it that fellow pilots on this board believe that because you work for Ryanair you are "the bottom of the pilot community" and substandard. Thomas Coupling claims that three times he has been concerned about the landing, yet he still climbs on board again and flies off to his house in Italy ! Never mind the supposed pax waiting to throw up in the toilet, I read your post and felt ill.
Ian and Co, please be careful. I would be expecting a call from one of Leo Hairy Camels not so nice friends very soon and they are not the most understanding of people!
Ian and Co, please be careful. I would be expecting a call from one of Leo Hairy Camels not so nice friends very soon and they are not the most understanding of people!
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From the Belfast Telegraph:
Ryanair criticised for failing to divert during heavy fog
Friday, February 09, 2007
The Irish Aviation Authority has reportedly criticised Ryanair for continuing to land at a British airport in heavy fog.
Reports this morning say 15 Ryanair jets landed at Stansted on the night of April 24th despite the fact that most other aircraft diverted elsewhere.
Visibility was within safety regulations for 11 of the landings, but reports this morning say the IAA has found that four of the landings breached these regulations.
The authority has reportedly described the case as a "critical safety issue".
Just a little of the usual discrepancies in what the IAA have actually said then:
Ryanair criticised for failing to divert during heavy fog
Friday, February 09, 2007
The Irish Aviation Authority has reportedly criticised Ryanair for continuing to land at a British airport in heavy fog.
Reports this morning say 15 Ryanair jets landed at Stansted on the night of April 24th despite the fact that most other aircraft diverted elsewhere.
Visibility was within safety regulations for 11 of the landings, but reports this morning say the IAA has found that four of the landings breached these regulations.
The authority has reportedly described the case as a "critical safety issue".
Just a little of the usual discrepancies in what the IAA have actually said then:
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Visibility was within safety regulations for 11 of the landings, but reports this morning say the IAA has found that four of the landings breached these regulations.
Only four landings breached regulations...
JBS
Only four landings breached regulations...
JBS
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But its OK coz the IAA have had a nice friendly chat with Mr O'Leary and he says if they do it again he'll sack 'em.
OK, on this occasion they didn't crash, but they did get caught operating outside the regulations and they could have crashed. If they had, god forbid, then I am sure the IAA would be doing slightly more than saying "its OK".
And didn't someone post that the RVRs were down to 275m? Without centreline and TDZ lighting? And was it freezing fog?
Anyway, although yes, the finger points at the pilots here, I have every sympathy with the busy long days and lack of time. Sometimes the NOTAMs seem like reading War and Peace.
The IAA should be pointing the finger at the airline and asking WHY would pilots miss this in the NOTAMs and/or why did they continue? Perhaps on their third full duty-time day, late at night, absolutely knackered, want to get in coz a divert will mean hassle and an even longer working day. Sometimes, when stressed and fatigued, we make wrong decisions. But if this is caused by company pressure and working practices then the IAA should be investigating further.
OK, on this occasion they didn't crash, but they did get caught operating outside the regulations and they could have crashed. If they had, god forbid, then I am sure the IAA would be doing slightly more than saying "its OK".
And didn't someone post that the RVRs were down to 275m? Without centreline and TDZ lighting? And was it freezing fog?
Anyway, although yes, the finger points at the pilots here, I have every sympathy with the busy long days and lack of time. Sometimes the NOTAMs seem like reading War and Peace.
The IAA should be pointing the finger at the airline and asking WHY would pilots miss this in the NOTAMs and/or why did they continue? Perhaps on their third full duty-time day, late at night, absolutely knackered, want to get in coz a divert will mean hassle and an even longer working day. Sometimes, when stressed and fatigued, we make wrong decisions. But if this is caused by company pressure and working practices then the IAA should be investigating further.
