Ryanair: approach incidents in the news
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As Danny has already said on another thread ....
"As for the lack of a connection between 25 minute turn-arounds and rushed approaches, I think the emphasis is more on the rush to keep to the schedule rather than just the turn-around itself."
I agree, at RYR under our FTL scheme (approved by the IAA), we have a maximum flight duty period of 12 hours. Despite this, we have several 4 sector days that are rostered for duties lasting 11 hours 50 minutes, 11 hours 55 minutes and even one for exactly 12 hours !!!
There is simply "no slack" in the schedule with days like these - a minute late on stand, or a turnaround longer than 25 minutes could mean the crew going into discretion on the last sector of the day.
I am not justifying this as a reason for unsafe practices, just pointing out some of the problems many pilots at Ryanair face as a result of the unrealistic targets set by the management.
12 hours should be a duty hours limit - Ryanair sees it as a target !
"As for the lack of a connection between 25 minute turn-arounds and rushed approaches, I think the emphasis is more on the rush to keep to the schedule rather than just the turn-around itself."
I agree, at RYR under our FTL scheme (approved by the IAA), we have a maximum flight duty period of 12 hours. Despite this, we have several 4 sector days that are rostered for duties lasting 11 hours 50 minutes, 11 hours 55 minutes and even one for exactly 12 hours !!!
There is simply "no slack" in the schedule with days like these - a minute late on stand, or a turnaround longer than 25 minutes could mean the crew going into discretion on the last sector of the day.
I am not justifying this as a reason for unsafe practices, just pointing out some of the problems many pilots at Ryanair face as a result of the unrealistic targets set by the management.
12 hours should be a duty hours limit - Ryanair sees it as a target !
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motivations etc
Hi
Can obviously understand a degree of suspicion, which is why I'm being completely upfront and straightforward with my questions. It would have been very easy to pose on this forum as joe public.
one of the benefits of working for the bbc is that we don't have any shareholders or any outside interference in what we look at.
most problems in industry and elsewhere don't simply go away, and need highlighting. I'm just the conduit who is interested in hearing from anybody concerned about the state of safety in the airline industry. That's all!
Ian
Can obviously understand a degree of suspicion, which is why I'm being completely upfront and straightforward with my questions. It would have been very easy to pose on this forum as joe public.
one of the benefits of working for the bbc is that we don't have any shareholders or any outside interference in what we look at.
most problems in industry and elsewhere don't simply go away, and need highlighting. I'm just the conduit who is interested in hearing from anybody concerned about the state of safety in the airline industry. That's all!
Ian
Paxing All Over The World
A pax speaking: My I suggest that you search for this subject in PPRuNe? It has been discussed ad infinitum in the past years and you will readily find the whole range of responses and from all sides in many of the forums.
For my part, having followed such threads with interest, I think the people you want to investigate are the CAA and their cousins in other European countries. Are they keeping up with developments in the airline industry??? One example, the 900 hour limit was (it has oft been said) a limit that was to be reached only occasionally. Now all airlines see it as a target to be met. Their need to do that is obvious but what effect is that having on flight crew?
Consider the problems reported in Spain. There is a thread running in this Forum: Barcelona Runway TO/Ground Close call Are the Spanish authorities on top of their expanding responsibilities?
If ANY airline is cutting corners, they will only be able to do so if the oversight is not there. Look at the NHS, we know that the rise in MRSA is not just due to casual attitude by some medical staff - but the steady reduction in cleaning costs by managment. They have steadily cut costs and eventually, it cost lives. Is the same thing going to happen in the airline world? (Murphy says, Yes')
The in built benefit that we as passengers have is that - the flight crew are sitting in the same place. In hospitals, the MRSA does not get the people who make the decision to cut the cleaning budget! So there is an enormous saftey net that continues to work for the greatest number of times.
The problem for you is that "Is the CAA up to the job?", is a very much longer (and more expensive) research job than trying to find out if one airline or another has put a bit of pressure on it's staff. BUT the benefit for you is that - NO ONE HAS ASKED THIS QUESTION at least, not in any meaningful way. How do the CAA recruit their staff? How much money do they have? Has their funding increased with the enoromous rise in air travel in the past decade? Have the instructions from their political masters changed???
The old question still pertains ... Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
For my part, having followed such threads with interest, I think the people you want to investigate are the CAA and their cousins in other European countries. Are they keeping up with developments in the airline industry??? One example, the 900 hour limit was (it has oft been said) a limit that was to be reached only occasionally. Now all airlines see it as a target to be met. Their need to do that is obvious but what effect is that having on flight crew?
Consider the problems reported in Spain. There is a thread running in this Forum: Barcelona Runway TO/Ground Close call Are the Spanish authorities on top of their expanding responsibilities?
If ANY airline is cutting corners, they will only be able to do so if the oversight is not there. Look at the NHS, we know that the rise in MRSA is not just due to casual attitude by some medical staff - but the steady reduction in cleaning costs by managment. They have steadily cut costs and eventually, it cost lives. Is the same thing going to happen in the airline world? (Murphy says, Yes')
The in built benefit that we as passengers have is that - the flight crew are sitting in the same place. In hospitals, the MRSA does not get the people who make the decision to cut the cleaning budget! So there is an enormous saftey net that continues to work for the greatest number of times.
The problem for you is that "Is the CAA up to the job?", is a very much longer (and more expensive) research job than trying to find out if one airline or another has put a bit of pressure on it's staff. BUT the benefit for you is that - NO ONE HAS ASKED THIS QUESTION at least, not in any meaningful way. How do the CAA recruit their staff? How much money do they have? Has their funding increased with the enoromous rise in air travel in the past decade? Have the instructions from their political masters changed???
The old question still pertains ... Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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Firstly, I have to respond to Rainboe's outburst by saying that, someone who averages almost 60 PPRuNe posts per month certainly does not work for an airline about which Ian is enquiring. Either make a valid contribution or keep quiet.
In regard to the point made by Captainpaddy on O'Leary's mantra of RYR pilots only working 18 hours per week, paddy is of course totally correct, in fact O'Leary is simply using a tired old line used in the media by Rupert Murdoch during the 1989 Australian pilot dispute.
Our governing bodies laid down operational crew duty limits many years ago when airlines were very different. These limits were respected as such and seldom came close to being infringed. However, the rules have not kept pace with the whirlwind of change that our industry has experienced, Low Cost airlines now roster to these limits as a matter of course, and as alibaba quotes : "If you stretch 50 pieces of metal to their theoretical limits, some will be fine, some will be at breaking point and some will have broken already."
I have no doubt whatsoever that the culture that exists, predominantly within the Low Cost sector, leads to corners being cut in day to day operations, and recent events certainly support this.
In regard to the point made by Captainpaddy on O'Leary's mantra of RYR pilots only working 18 hours per week, paddy is of course totally correct, in fact O'Leary is simply using a tired old line used in the media by Rupert Murdoch during the 1989 Australian pilot dispute.
Our governing bodies laid down operational crew duty limits many years ago when airlines were very different. These limits were respected as such and seldom came close to being infringed. However, the rules have not kept pace with the whirlwind of change that our industry has experienced, Low Cost airlines now roster to these limits as a matter of course, and as alibaba quotes : "If you stretch 50 pieces of metal to their theoretical limits, some will be fine, some will be at breaking point and some will have broken already."
I have no doubt whatsoever that the culture that exists, predominantly within the Low Cost sector, leads to corners being cut in day to day operations, and recent events certainly support this.
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Haughtney1:
Nor am I and there's nothing wrong with anyone venting frustations - as I said, it seems fair dibs to do so;
The point is you either accept that the existence of investigative journalism is at least potentially beneficial to you as an individual in society - in which case you also tolerate the fact that it occasionally gets pointed at your own industry - or you don't tolerate investigative journalism and would be happier living in a police state without a free press.
Fair enough, but as others have said many times before on these forums, this is a rumour network, not gospel and as such we all have to sort the wheat from the chaff!
So what is wrong with venting our frustrations? no one that I've seen is advocating censorship of the free press.
As this isn't a financial services website/forum I would suggest that your comparison is worthless, after all, we are talking about airline safety standards
Well J class, rather than suspecting, speculating, or indeed insinuating, perhaps a quick scan through some of these forums and taking on-board the informed comment that many of us who work in the industry take the time to put forward...you could formulate or more informed opinion
I call you back
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Ian
Welcome to the board Ian.
You will have to excuse the reflex abuse hurled at any journalist by some pilots. The vast majority of us have clauses in our contracts banning contact with the media and therefore are very reluctant to do so. However we are frequently the victims of articles which are either management rants reproduced as informed opinion or poorly researched journalism. Hence our prickly personalities when a hack shows up. The problem is a Catch 22 situation though as how can we as pilots expect the hacks to publish informed articles when we just keep our mouths shut.
There enough links to published stories and websites such as AAIU.ie/incidents on the various threads here to add up the pieces of a pretty scary story. With the noble exception of IALPA you are unlikely to extract statements from too many individuals invovled. The personal risk is too great and given the 'special attention' endured by some IALPA officers they deserve our thanks for their courage. This site also deserves credit for taking the hard decision to allow continued debate on certain outfits despite enormous pressure.
A good starting point for the problem might be the IAA rather than any airline. In 3 of the high profile incidents mentioned in this Morning news stories it appears that the operator failed to report the incidents immediately, as required, in one case it was IALPA who raised it months after the event. This information is available at AAIU.ie. The lack of action on this matter by the IAA seems incredible.
Reporting incidents is the cornerstone of our safety culture. Most of our procedures and warning systems have been developed in response to events in the past. As an industry we learn more from our mistakes than any other. It is incumbent on the IAA to rigorously impose the best safety practises in it's sphere of influence. That does not appear to be happening. It may be time to call on the Irish Goverment to bring in some outside agencies to review the effiency and capability of the IAA.
Another point worth mentioning is that the media tend to focus on a soundbite. In this case the 25 minutes turnaround. That is not the reason for any of the mentioned incidents. Any pressure to stick to the schedule would not be merely felt during a turnaround. It would be a constant.
You will have to excuse the reflex abuse hurled at any journalist by some pilots. The vast majority of us have clauses in our contracts banning contact with the media and therefore are very reluctant to do so. However we are frequently the victims of articles which are either management rants reproduced as informed opinion or poorly researched journalism. Hence our prickly personalities when a hack shows up. The problem is a Catch 22 situation though as how can we as pilots expect the hacks to publish informed articles when we just keep our mouths shut.
There enough links to published stories and websites such as AAIU.ie/incidents on the various threads here to add up the pieces of a pretty scary story. With the noble exception of IALPA you are unlikely to extract statements from too many individuals invovled. The personal risk is too great and given the 'special attention' endured by some IALPA officers they deserve our thanks for their courage. This site also deserves credit for taking the hard decision to allow continued debate on certain outfits despite enormous pressure.
A good starting point for the problem might be the IAA rather than any airline. In 3 of the high profile incidents mentioned in this Morning news stories it appears that the operator failed to report the incidents immediately, as required, in one case it was IALPA who raised it months after the event. This information is available at AAIU.ie. The lack of action on this matter by the IAA seems incredible.
Reporting incidents is the cornerstone of our safety culture. Most of our procedures and warning systems have been developed in response to events in the past. As an industry we learn more from our mistakes than any other. It is incumbent on the IAA to rigorously impose the best safety practises in it's sphere of influence. That does not appear to be happening. It may be time to call on the Irish Goverment to bring in some outside agencies to review the effiency and capability of the IAA.
Another point worth mentioning is that the media tend to focus on a soundbite. In this case the 25 minutes turnaround. That is not the reason for any of the mentioned incidents. Any pressure to stick to the schedule would not be merely felt during a turnaround. It would be a constant.
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PAXboy....
Ryanair has its largest European base at London Stansted Airport, employing hundreds of pilots.They operate Irish registered aircraft and the company's Flight Time Limitations scheme is regulated and approved by the Irish Aviation Authority.
By and large, the CAA cannot touch them .......
Ryanair has its largest European base at London Stansted Airport, employing hundreds of pilots.They operate Irish registered aircraft and the company's Flight Time Limitations scheme is regulated and approved by the Irish Aviation Authority.
By and large, the CAA cannot touch them .......
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25 mins is enough time to do all the required checks on a turn around. Of course in this business we used to be into a thing called "redundancy". And our own standards were always higher than the CAA's.
No more.
No more.
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"The memo, a copy of which has been obtained by The Times, states...."
Safety assurances aside, methinks the well-timed nature of this "leak" indicates that this is simply another publicity stunt by the airline to reassure pax that RYR is safe.
If I am wrong, why no memos after Knock or Rome?
Go on, tell me.
Safety assurances aside, methinks the well-timed nature of this "leak" indicates that this is simply another publicity stunt by the airline to reassure pax that RYR is safe.
If I am wrong, why no memos after Knock or Rome?
Go on, tell me.
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Ian,
first, may I applaud you for being so open and honest from the very first post onwards in this thread - I think Rainboe was a little too uppitty in his response.
However you state -
Could you please inform me how this statement ties in with the docudrama "The day Britain Stopped" or whatever the programme was called? I am an ATCO, working at London Terminal Control, West Drayton. I along with other ATCOs trawl the pilots forums as it is quite often a good place to learn (I am sure pilots do the same with the ATC forum).
NATS as a company, tried to advise the programme makers about the reality i.e. what the every day procedures are concerning the ATC aspect of this programme. Unfortunately, the programme makers declined to take any inout. They were happy, however, to wheel out an 'expert' who to all intents and purposes, did not know what they were talking about, to give commentry on a disaster caused by ATC.
Therefore, you can surely understand the suspicion that greets you, even when being totally honest and upfront!
Good luck with the research, but please keep it honest. As an ATCO, I find the Lo Co pilots are as professional as any other, (not what you are asking, but an indication of standards as far as I am concerned)... some are very good, some ok, some bad - just as in any other airline I regularly deal with.
I hope you do get a decent programme out of this, even if it ends up being a positive spin on Lo Co carriers - anything has to be better than more tosh such as "celebrity come dancing" or "celebrity master chef", or the latest offering "where can we find a boy like Joseph" or whatever other w
k name the BBC bosses have come up with for cheap, easy to make TV!!
first, may I applaud you for being so open and honest from the very first post onwards in this thread - I think Rainboe was a little too uppitty in his response.
However you state -
most problems in industry and elsewhere don't simply go away, and need highlighting. I'm just the conduit who is interested in hearing from anybody concerned about the state of safety in the airline industry. That's all!
NATS as a company, tried to advise the programme makers about the reality i.e. what the every day procedures are concerning the ATC aspect of this programme. Unfortunately, the programme makers declined to take any inout. They were happy, however, to wheel out an 'expert' who to all intents and purposes, did not know what they were talking about, to give commentry on a disaster caused by ATC.
Therefore, you can surely understand the suspicion that greets you, even when being totally honest and upfront!
Good luck with the research, but please keep it honest. As an ATCO, I find the Lo Co pilots are as professional as any other, (not what you are asking, but an indication of standards as far as I am concerned)... some are very good, some ok, some bad - just as in any other airline I regularly deal with.
I hope you do get a decent programme out of this, even if it ends up being a positive spin on Lo Co carriers - anything has to be better than more tosh such as "celebrity come dancing" or "celebrity master chef", or the latest offering "where can we find a boy like Joseph" or whatever other w
k name the BBC bosses have come up with for cheap, easy to make TV!!
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I really think it is worth highlighting what Faire D'income said:
In 3 of the high profile incidents mentioned in this Morning news stories it appears that the operator failed to report the incidents immediately, as required, in one case it was IALPA who raised it months after the event.
Does that really sound like an airline who has safety as their first priority?
More to the point, although we may never know if they are, the IAA should be all over RYR for that point alone.
As has happened all over the world, notably the USA, the regulatory authority makes their money from those who they regulate. That kind of system will never work 100 % correctly. The IAA have seen a massive increase in their revenue as a result of RYR's expansion. The weight that that carries is the main reason why RYR has remained on the Irish register.
In 3 of the high profile incidents mentioned in this Morning news stories it appears that the operator failed to report the incidents immediately, as required, in one case it was IALPA who raised it months after the event.
Does that really sound like an airline who has safety as their first priority?
More to the point, although we may never know if they are, the IAA should be all over RYR for that point alone.
As has happened all over the world, notably the USA, the regulatory authority makes their money from those who they regulate. That kind of system will never work 100 % correctly. The IAA have seen a massive increase in their revenue as a result of RYR's expansion. The weight that that carries is the main reason why RYR has remained on the Irish register.
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I don't really see what the problem is, if your unstable go around - no problem. If people are blatantly disregarding SOP's and continue with cowboy approaches what are the company supposed to do, just say don't worry about it.
I think the wider issue regarding corporate culture and intimidation is the real concern and this needs to be looked into by the authorities, but to tell people of a sanction for disregarding SOP's at least people are left in no doubt as to where they stand. If you think you even might be unstable go around.
I think the wider issue regarding corporate culture and intimidation is the real concern and this needs to be looked into by the authorities, but to tell people of a sanction for disregarding SOP's at least people are left in no doubt as to where they stand. If you think you even might be unstable go around.
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Cowboy approaches are dealt with the same way by every company. Discuss, investigate, and demote/dismiss if necessary. Every company I have worked for would have demoted or sacked each of the pilots in the RYR incidents. That is not what is up for discussion though.
SOP's are SOP's and everyone knows what they are there for. But for a CEO to issue a memo threatening demotion or dismissal is not necessary. It is just another case of the over the top management culture in RYR. Angry, aggressive, memos do not serve the purposes of flight safety.
If you company is beginning to show signs of things going wrong, a good manager tries to find out why and fix the root of the problem. A bad manager screams and shouts and tells people to shape up or ship out.
SOP's are SOP's and everyone knows what they are there for. But for a CEO to issue a memo threatening demotion or dismissal is not necessary. It is just another case of the over the top management culture in RYR. Angry, aggressive, memos do not serve the purposes of flight safety.
If you company is beginning to show signs of things going wrong, a good manager tries to find out why and fix the root of the problem. A bad manager screams and shouts and tells people to shape up or ship out.
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Ian, sorry for jumping into your thread.
Mark Tighe here, I'm a journalist with the Sunday Times in Ireland. We are looking into the Ryanair culture to see if it contributes to the recent incidents that were investigated by the AAIU.
I've been speaking to official spokesmen but I'd like a pilot to give me their views on Ryanair procedures, the IAA enforcement of regulations and the letter from MOL. All off the record of course.
I'd appreciate any views or insights on this. I'm not an expert on aviation but am open to suggestions about what needs to be looked at here. I can see there a number of different issues that people believe haven't been addressed.
mark.tighe at sunday-times.ie
+353 1 4792449
Mark Tighe here, I'm a journalist with the Sunday Times in Ireland. We are looking into the Ryanair culture to see if it contributes to the recent incidents that were investigated by the AAIU.
I've been speaking to official spokesmen but I'd like a pilot to give me their views on Ryanair procedures, the IAA enforcement of regulations and the letter from MOL. All off the record of course.
I'd appreciate any views or insights on this. I'm not an expert on aviation but am open to suggestions about what needs to be looked at here. I can see there a number of different issues that people believe haven't been addressed.
mark.tighe at sunday-times.ie
+353 1 4792449
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Omni...737 has stated the 'gold-plated' safety answer to an unstable approach: go around. But can any RYR flight crew tell us what disciplinary procedures MOL imposes on a crew who b*gger up the schedule by making a go around?
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Omni...737 has stated the 'gold-plated' safety answer to an unstable approach: go around. But can any RYR flight crew tell us what disciplinary procedures MOL imposes on a crew who b*gger up the schedule by making a go around?
"Ryanair is a Go Around airline. Go arounds are non punitive"
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"Omni...737 has stated the 'gold-plated' safety answer to an unstable approach: go around. But can any RYR flight crew tell us what disciplinary procedures MOL imposes on a crew who b*gger up the schedule by making a go around?"
www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262132&page=4
www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262132&page=4