Barcelona Runway TO/Ground Close call
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Valencia (Spain)
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
which gives you the idea that the controller has a problem understanding english or he/she is taking care of other things instead of doing his/her job.
- The pilot doesnīt speak good english or misses his own callsing.
- The plane has been transferred to a wrong sector. This happens often when changing from one ACC to another.
- The plane is transferred too early, so the controllers doesnīt have its flight plan strip.
- The plane is trasferred with a wrong squawk number, so the radar cannot identify it.
- The plane is trasferred too late, and the flight plan has been finished by the system. No data about that callsign.
- The controller is having problems with the strip printer, or the mic, or the speaker, or one of the many monitors and systems we have around.
- He/she is just coordinating some fact to a fellow. This takes us a whole lot of time and It is the main reason we donīt answer communications at the first time.
- The controller was not looking at the screen because he was putting a flght strip on its holder, or he is cleaning the bay off old flight stripes.
- A duty swift has just happened or it is happening at that time.
- Believe me or not, we hear the radio on a poorer way than pilots. We are able to transmit/receive through various aerials, but we are usually located even hundreds of miles away from them. Ground transmisions, usually using cables or microwave signal have its own lack of signal and undermines the quality.
And, of course, not paying attention and being absent-minded is also possible. After all, we are not machines... yet.
Thinking that we do not respond on the frecuency because we are not doing our job properly shows that you havenīt ever visit a control facility or that you just didnīt care too much the day you were there.
Á.
aka Capt PPRuNe
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Plumaveloz, thank you for your concise and relevant posts. Please don't fall into the trap of being baited by those who generalise without being able to back up their statistics* with valid information other than the fact that they have heard something a few times, or worse still, their mates have heard a few times.
*87.35% of statistics are made up on the spot!
*87.35% of statistics are made up on the spot!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: europe
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have read loads of pathetic, xenophobic, agressive, arrogant comments in this post, enough nonsense!!
I fly out of Barcelona every day and not a single problem in 2 years.You have to keep your eyes and ears open as everywhere. May be it is because I have been flying all over the world and I have been involved in all kind of enviroments.Therefore I am flexible to different ATC's and I am aware that even with London ATC you can have RA's as you do.Have you flown into Paris? What percentage of english do you hear?
Have you ever flown to the States? Would you consider the aeronautical english there pretty ICAO standard? Even the UK has its own particular phraseology!!(no regrets)The use of English doesn't guarantee anything if it is not the right sentence
I have been flying from Indonesia to Argentina and surprises me how nervous you are to the point of saying that a big accident may happen in BCN and MAD. That is absolutely over the top The only explanation I can find is the short mind that many of you are showing.You go outside Europe and you will change your mind, mate!! that is scary!!
I fly out of Barcelona every day and not a single problem in 2 years.You have to keep your eyes and ears open as everywhere. May be it is because I have been flying all over the world and I have been involved in all kind of enviroments.Therefore I am flexible to different ATC's and I am aware that even with London ATC you can have RA's as you do.Have you flown into Paris? What percentage of english do you hear?
Have you ever flown to the States? Would you consider the aeronautical english there pretty ICAO standard? Even the UK has its own particular phraseology!!(no regrets)The use of English doesn't guarantee anything if it is not the right sentence
I have been flying from Indonesia to Argentina and surprises me how nervous you are to the point of saying that a big accident may happen in BCN and MAD. That is absolutely over the top The only explanation I can find is the short mind that many of you are showing.You go outside Europe and you will change your mind, mate!! that is scary!!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Barcelona, SPAIN
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I only very recently got the en-route rating for LECB, but I would like to bring a point about the language debate to the table which I feel has not been brought up yet.
First let me stress that I am all for the use of English only, and I would support local legislation that would make it mandatory. But! You guys have to understand that our job, much like yours but probably even more so, is all about juggling priorities. We need to safely climb you and descend you while we make sure you don't see much of each other, and we do that by making use of the resources available. One of those is radio time, and it is extremely scarce.
It is a sad fact of life that all too often when I've made a transmission in English to an IBE or AEA crew, said transmission has been missed, and I've had to do it again in Spanish. And here is where I have to prioritize.
It's true that SA is very important to you, and I will make sure that any communication that may involve a foreign carrier will be made in English for everyone's benefit. But if I need to give a clearance to one of the said carriers which does not affect other traffic I will do it in Spanish. And that for everyone's benefit as well. Because had I had to repeat it I may have had the chance to give you, say, a descent clearance, and just then a colleague initiates an urgent coordination via the hotline, while at the same time two traffics are checking in, which requires an acknowledgement lest they complaint about unresponsive ATC, so that by the time I can clear you for descent it's a minute too late. And that minute too late is just enough that what would have been a simple descent is now a potential conflict with a established traffic coming the opposite direction, which requires extra attention from me which I could have used somewhere else.
As I said, I would rather have the DGAC force all communications in English, so that I could expect that Spanish aircrews were more likely to answer on the first call, but nowadays it is simply not so.
Given, I'm talking about en-route, where SA is not as much of an issue as in the TMA, and traffic situations where two crews need to have the same picture are comparatively rare. But I would think that in the TMA, a single lost call can create even more trouble.
As usual, these things are a lot easier shown than explained, so I would hope that more of you came to the ACC so that we can show you.
Hope I have cleared things up a bit.
Cheers,
Juan.
First let me stress that I am all for the use of English only, and I would support local legislation that would make it mandatory. But! You guys have to understand that our job, much like yours but probably even more so, is all about juggling priorities. We need to safely climb you and descend you while we make sure you don't see much of each other, and we do that by making use of the resources available. One of those is radio time, and it is extremely scarce.
It is a sad fact of life that all too often when I've made a transmission in English to an IBE or AEA crew, said transmission has been missed, and I've had to do it again in Spanish. And here is where I have to prioritize.
It's true that SA is very important to you, and I will make sure that any communication that may involve a foreign carrier will be made in English for everyone's benefit. But if I need to give a clearance to one of the said carriers which does not affect other traffic I will do it in Spanish. And that for everyone's benefit as well. Because had I had to repeat it I may have had the chance to give you, say, a descent clearance, and just then a colleague initiates an urgent coordination via the hotline, while at the same time two traffics are checking in, which requires an acknowledgement lest they complaint about unresponsive ATC, so that by the time I can clear you for descent it's a minute too late. And that minute too late is just enough that what would have been a simple descent is now a potential conflict with a established traffic coming the opposite direction, which requires extra attention from me which I could have used somewhere else.
As I said, I would rather have the DGAC force all communications in English, so that I could expect that Spanish aircrews were more likely to answer on the first call, but nowadays it is simply not so.
Given, I'm talking about en-route, where SA is not as much of an issue as in the TMA, and traffic situations where two crews need to have the same picture are comparatively rare. But I would think that in the TMA, a single lost call can create even more trouble.
As usual, these things are a lot easier shown than explained, so I would hope that more of you came to the ACC so that we can show you.
Hope I have cleared things up a bit.
Cheers,
Juan.
Last edited by JToledo; 12th Feb 2007 at 10:20. Reason: Spelling
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: A Higher Plane
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A recent adventure
I have no axe to grind. This was received today by a line pilot, is posted verbatim and will be CHIRPED.......
"Yet another exciting incident at LEBL yesterday .
On the approach to 25R at about 8 miles we noticed an airliner fairly close to us joining the approach ahead of us.
A small amount of wake turbulence was experienced and we were informed that we were number 2 to an Airbus 319 TWO miles ahead and 30 knots SLOWER than the 180 knots we had been asked to maintain.
Despite querying this in the hope that perhaps an orbit in the CAVOK conditions could be carried out to ensure proper separation nothing was fortcoming from ATC so a go around was commenced from about 2000 ft.
ATC seemed surprised at this, no doubt looking forward to a display of low level aerobatics. but an uneventful missed approach and subsequent landing was carried out.
On departure after the 5 mile taxi to 25L behind a Premier 1 we were instructed to line up "after the lining up aircraft". Or was that "after the landing aircraft". Difficult to tel with a strong Spanish accent and ATC in Spanish to Spanish aircraft not giving us a full picture. I know 25L is not normally used for landing but at lebl........?????
We read back "cleared to line up and wait behind the departing 'company name' aircraft" which produced no adverse response from ATC.
At least this time they did not advise us of the next frequency when at about 80 knots on the take off roll like they did last week.
Always an exciting time at Barcelona."
"Yet another exciting incident at LEBL yesterday .
On the approach to 25R at about 8 miles we noticed an airliner fairly close to us joining the approach ahead of us.
A small amount of wake turbulence was experienced and we were informed that we were number 2 to an Airbus 319 TWO miles ahead and 30 knots SLOWER than the 180 knots we had been asked to maintain.
Despite querying this in the hope that perhaps an orbit in the CAVOK conditions could be carried out to ensure proper separation nothing was fortcoming from ATC so a go around was commenced from about 2000 ft.
ATC seemed surprised at this, no doubt looking forward to a display of low level aerobatics. but an uneventful missed approach and subsequent landing was carried out.
On departure after the 5 mile taxi to 25L behind a Premier 1 we were instructed to line up "after the lining up aircraft". Or was that "after the landing aircraft". Difficult to tel with a strong Spanish accent and ATC in Spanish to Spanish aircraft not giving us a full picture. I know 25L is not normally used for landing but at lebl........?????
We read back "cleared to line up and wait behind the departing 'company name' aircraft" which produced no adverse response from ATC.
At least this time they did not advise us of the next frequency when at about 80 knots on the take off roll like they did last week.
Always an exciting time at Barcelona."
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Barcelona AIP changes/15th ?!
There are changes again tommorow in Barcelona that are in the AIP of AENA and the changes may not yet be on your new Jepp, EAG charts yet.
I have not had time to look them up.
Have a look at AENA's link above RE AIP
Could someone more informed post more.
Something about the use of 20/02 again ?
I have not had time to look them up.
Have a look at AENA's link above RE AIP
Could someone more informed post more.
Something about the use of 20/02 again ?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SV Marie Celeste
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is amazing, foreigners do not speak english as well as the brits, a poor vector leading to a go around at 2000'. A controler used a not approved word (thankfully he was promptly corrected). Shock, horror....
Get real guys. ATC in Barcelona has some room for improvement, granted. But you fly abroad and seem shocked to find out that people do not speak your language as well as you do, like to do things a little different and even speak their own (ICOA aproved) language among themselves. In fact they seem altogether foreign. It seems nobody here has ever flown past the Swiss border... I wonder how would you cope flying anywhere past Moscow, Turkey, The Med....
It always makes me smile when a controler clears a UK aircraft to FL1-0-0
and the reply comes slightly condescending "clear FL One hundred". Not aware apparently that this is a UK filed difference and not standard ICAO RT? A bit more respect for the rules and ways of doing things of the countries we visit is in order. Yes they are different but it is also their country.
This in no way means that BCN TAC is perfect or that there is no room for improvement, far from it. Is just gets to me the ugly Johnie foreigner bashing slant of this thread.
Get real guys. ATC in Barcelona has some room for improvement, granted. But you fly abroad and seem shocked to find out that people do not speak your language as well as you do, like to do things a little different and even speak their own (ICOA aproved) language among themselves. In fact they seem altogether foreign. It seems nobody here has ever flown past the Swiss border... I wonder how would you cope flying anywhere past Moscow, Turkey, The Med....
It always makes me smile when a controler clears a UK aircraft to FL1-0-0
and the reply comes slightly condescending "clear FL One hundred". Not aware apparently that this is a UK filed difference and not standard ICAO RT? A bit more respect for the rules and ways of doing things of the countries we visit is in order. Yes they are different but it is also their country.
This in no way means that BCN TAC is perfect or that there is no room for improvement, far from it. Is just gets to me the ugly Johnie foreigner bashing slant of this thread.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: A Higher Plane
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay guys. Hows your take on getting a A319 vectored 2 miles in front of you when you've been told to maintain a speed way in excess of that aircraft and you fly into its wake..............................
This is not about nationalities, its about safety.
This is not about nationalities, its about safety.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lufthansa TCAS Resolution Advisory For Valentines
Flying into Barcelona Last Night heard Lufthansa on the radio stating they had a Resolution Advisory and that they would make a report.
The controller seems to have been pulled,afterwards.
Yeah, and this is normal, with good weather,right.
For your info. BCN.
" Preferential runway configuration during night (23:00 to 07:00 LT) is going to change with effective date 15-Feb-07.
This change affects the East Configuration. From now on, arrivals will be
performed on RWY 02, with a new ILS procedure available, and departures from
RWY 07R.
In case RWY 02 is not available for landing, then West configuration (25L
for arrivals and departures) will be used.
Please strictly follow the missed approach procedure in order not to overfly
El Prat city, and commence the turn after crossing RWY 25R/07L.
ATC will apply 6 NM separations (it doubles the current value) and a speed
restriction of 160 Kt will be introduced up to 4NM in final.
Please note that this change will not be included in the EAG cartography
until it will be officially published in the Spanish AIP.
The controller seems to have been pulled,afterwards.
Yeah, and this is normal, with good weather,right.
For your info. BCN.
" Preferential runway configuration during night (23:00 to 07:00 LT) is going to change with effective date 15-Feb-07.
This change affects the East Configuration. From now on, arrivals will be
performed on RWY 02, with a new ILS procedure available, and departures from
RWY 07R.
In case RWY 02 is not available for landing, then West configuration (25L
for arrivals and departures) will be used.
Please strictly follow the missed approach procedure in order not to overfly
El Prat city, and commence the turn after crossing RWY 25R/07L.
ATC will apply 6 NM separations (it doubles the current value) and a speed
restriction of 160 Kt will be introduced up to 4NM in final.
Please note that this change will not be included in the EAG cartography
until it will be officially published in the Spanish AIP.
