Barcelona Runway TO/Ground Close call
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Well, the bottom line is that both Barcelona and Madrid are unacceptably dangerous at present. This view seem to be shared by the international pilot community and the airlines. Acknowledged by prestigious publications, such as Flywise (BA's flight safety magazine, and I quote: "...this is the kind of ATC we remained concerned about" just a few issues back).
There seems also to be a general consensus that this is due to:
a) Very complex airspace and procedures
b) Peaks of very heavy traffic
c) Simultaneous use of Spanish and English
d) Very poor ATC standards
Not necessarily in that order.
This being Spain, I have little faith that our reports would have much effect. If we get as much as a reply from the Spanish CAA, that is. Perhaps the airlines and their associations should take a much harder stand.
Plumaveloz:
Thank you for your invitation to visit Spanish ATC facilities, but why not make it the other way around, and have you guys visit other ATC facilities in say, the UK, Germany or Maastricht. If you were interested, I think I'm in a position to liaison a jump seat pass for you.
And sorry, but your suggestion that we all learn Spanish is ludicrous. Might as well learn Swahili for flying into Nairobi, or Russian (another ICAO approved language) for Moscow.
At least the weather is (usually) good in Spain.
There seems also to be a general consensus that this is due to:
a) Very complex airspace and procedures
b) Peaks of very heavy traffic
c) Simultaneous use of Spanish and English
d) Very poor ATC standards
Not necessarily in that order.
This being Spain, I have little faith that our reports would have much effect. If we get as much as a reply from the Spanish CAA, that is. Perhaps the airlines and their associations should take a much harder stand.
Plumaveloz:
Thank you for your invitation to visit Spanish ATC facilities, but why not make it the other way around, and have you guys visit other ATC facilities in say, the UK, Germany or Maastricht. If you were interested, I think I'm in a position to liaison a jump seat pass for you.
And sorry, but your suggestion that we all learn Spanish is ludicrous. Might as well learn Swahili for flying into Nairobi, or Russian (another ICAO approved language) for Moscow.
At least the weather is (usually) good in Spain.
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I'm a little unsure what is being mooted as the cause here, was it an incorrect clearance given, or was it a correct clearance misunderstood because of the language in which it was issued?
Reading through this thread it sounds like two aircraft were cleared to be in the same place at the same time, and that the conflicting clearances were correctly understood. Does language have any bearing on this particular mistake, aside from the fact that it reduces awareness in general?
I agree that situational awareness will be improved with the use of a single common language (whatever that language may be), but a clearance is a clearance based on someone else controlling your situation. Situational awareness is secondary to this and a second line of saftey in the event of a mistake (not that I advocate the loss of situational awareness as a good thing, of course). Certainly it seems to have avoided disaster here, but although we are required to have safety in mind at all times, we do not expect a clearance to put us in the path of another aircraft. Otherwise what's the point in having a controler, and, without one, who is in control?
One last thing. It is confusing someone somewhere on the radio when two or more languages are used. That is very definitely a less safe situation than it might be, probably than it should be.
Reading through this thread it sounds like two aircraft were cleared to be in the same place at the same time, and that the conflicting clearances were correctly understood. Does language have any bearing on this particular mistake, aside from the fact that it reduces awareness in general?
I agree that situational awareness will be improved with the use of a single common language (whatever that language may be), but a clearance is a clearance based on someone else controlling your situation. Situational awareness is secondary to this and a second line of saftey in the event of a mistake (not that I advocate the loss of situational awareness as a good thing, of course). Certainly it seems to have avoided disaster here, but although we are required to have safety in mind at all times, we do not expect a clearance to put us in the path of another aircraft. Otherwise what's the point in having a controler, and, without one, who is in control?
One last thing. It is confusing someone somewhere on the radio when two or more languages are used. That is very definitely a less safe situation than it might be, probably than it should be.
According to one of the pilots involved (see his posts) this incident was NOT because of a language problem. The bottom line was that TWR cleared one a/c for take-off whilst GND simultaneously cleared the other to cross the active (departure) runway. The error would be down to "frequency seperation". As a poster pointed out, LHR for instance, require a/c crossing active runways to do so on TWR frequency - a much safer procedure.
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So, it seems that ANY incident in BCN or MAD is enough to start the same insulting thread as usual, even if, like in this case, language has nothing to do with the subject.
Respect the laws, anglosaxon pilots, it´s not spanish controllers fault that spanish is an ICAO language. Where i work, Canarias ACC, english is used when an non-spanish pilot is involved in a situation that needs him to knw whats going on.
But tell me that speaking english to, for example, two spanish pilots on short final trying to make a sequence, so you can understand the "situation" from your seat parking the plane at the gate... well, that has another name either than safety concern.
And if you or your companies were really really concerned about safety and not about politics, maybe in your checklists they should include, as the things are right now, a short briefing about local phraseology (which is not at all like learning a language). Let´s start:
Lesson one:
Cleared to land: Autorizado a aterrizar
Cleared for take off: Autorizado a despegar
It doesnt seem so dificult really.
And it really upsets me when you talk about "spanish chatter" and some other ugly things i´ve read, since we are working, folks, not flirting or having a drink with the pilots. I hope you are doing the same inside the cockpit, and not wasting your time talking about how baaaaaad we are.
Hasta pronto.
Respect the laws, anglosaxon pilots, it´s not spanish controllers fault that spanish is an ICAO language. Where i work, Canarias ACC, english is used when an non-spanish pilot is involved in a situation that needs him to knw whats going on.
But tell me that speaking english to, for example, two spanish pilots on short final trying to make a sequence, so you can understand the "situation" from your seat parking the plane at the gate... well, that has another name either than safety concern.
And if you or your companies were really really concerned about safety and not about politics, maybe in your checklists they should include, as the things are right now, a short briefing about local phraseology (which is not at all like learning a language). Let´s start:
Lesson one:
Cleared to land: Autorizado a aterrizar
Cleared for take off: Autorizado a despegar
It doesnt seem so dificult really.
And it really upsets me when you talk about "spanish chatter" and some other ugly things i´ve read, since we are working, folks, not flirting or having a drink with the pilots. I hope you are doing the same inside the cockpit, and not wasting your time talking about how baaaaaad we are.
Hasta pronto.
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Sonnendec
If the standard of ATC at Barcelona (I speak as both an ATCO AND Corporate pilot) was up to scratch then dual language would not be a problem. However, it isn't, and they can't cope with it, so shouldn't be doing it. Unreasonable speed control requests, a belief that Vortex wake separation is is purely voluntary, not mandatory. Accent problems that cause real problems in ATC/Pilot comprehension (many of these people would NOT pass ICAO level 4, the minimum required - but I suspect that will be glossed over and they will be awarded it anyway so they keep their jobs).
This is not anti-Spanish, it's not xenophobic. You can fly to Germany, France, Holland, Belgium and feel safe. The same applies when I fly into Malaga - never have a problem there at all, very impressed with ATC. Fly to Barcelona, and the trust in the pilot / ATCO partnership is non existent - they are NOT up to the job.
If the standard of ATC at Barcelona (I speak as both an ATCO AND Corporate pilot) was up to scratch then dual language would not be a problem. However, it isn't, and they can't cope with it, so shouldn't be doing it. Unreasonable speed control requests, a belief that Vortex wake separation is is purely voluntary, not mandatory. Accent problems that cause real problems in ATC/Pilot comprehension (many of these people would NOT pass ICAO level 4, the minimum required - but I suspect that will be glossed over and they will be awarded it anyway so they keep their jobs).
This is not anti-Spanish, it's not xenophobic. You can fly to Germany, France, Holland, Belgium and feel safe. The same applies when I fly into Malaga - never have a problem there at all, very impressed with ATC. Fly to Barcelona, and the trust in the pilot / ATCO partnership is non existent - they are NOT up to the job.
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Originally Posted by Sonnendec
but this topic is not about that at all. Read the posts above.
Most of the posts refer to.................................?
I think I've understood the thread quite well - have you?
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Bcn Mad Atc
How many more years do we have to hear these type of comments? This seems not to be the NATIONALISTIC SITUATION that it comes across as. This is about AIR SAFETY which has as much to do with ground ops as well as in the air. Is this not for JAA/EASA & Eurocontrol input? Please report all these through your carriers air safety dept., local CivilAir and national unions for action as high as you/we can take it. That's it had my say.
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Chilli, i was not talking about your post, but about all the others that make a whole pack out of a single incident saying all those things about the spanish control, the controllers and how bad bad bad we are.
Salud!
Salud!
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I work at LEBL TWR, and yes there is always room for improvement, can anyone say differently about their cockpit, CRM or daily operation?
I've been away a few days and I first knew about the Vueling incident from my colleagues. I really hope the investigation is as deep as necessary, for the sake of safety. If we've done something wrong we must learn from it.
Believe me when I say nobody crosses an active runway in Barcelona unless is cleared by the local controller of that runway or coordinated between both GND and Local ATCs. From what I hear the incident is a bit more complex, and I don't know exactly what happened so I won't extend on this issue.
We use Spanish only with those aircrafts that FIRST communicate with us in Spanish, and even then, if the instruction or clearance involves another aircraft, and has not communicated in Spanish or has not talked yet to that controller, the language used will be English.
I believe myself we should use English at all times, although is not mandatory by ICAO, I think it is safer and so much easier for everyone.
And no, not all Spanair pilots speak English to us, and those who do, sometimes call first in English, only to go to next freq on Spanish, which is a pain in the rear.
If you want to improve your SA, you don't need to learn Spanish, but believe me, spending 5 minutes with local AIP and charts goes a long way, and I'm afraid not everyone posting here has spend that much time on it. And remember, like it or not, Jeppesen is not official in Spain, make sure you have the official AENA ones or the latest (and I mean LATEST) Jeppesen. Madrid and Barcelona are growing rapidly and not everyone is keeping up with updated charts on board.
I am afraid I also have to speak about our (ATC) concerns about Vueling. And this is not the thread, nor revenge, so I'll be quick. Their operation in Barcelona has improved greatly, but for some unknown reason to us, it just seems like they have been diverted to Barcelona and act like Barcelona is nor their base. I mean, they seem lost with many basic procedures, like runway change configurations due to noise abatement procedures, parking stands, and so forth. Again, AIP can be very helpful.
I have to inform those of you that have not flown here lately that runway crossing is now only permitted when the runway to cross is not active. That means a 10-15 minute taxi for take off "around" 25R-07L, but a safer operation. Again, if you are so worried about flying here check AIP, charts and the info you are supposed to know before flying anywhere.
I doubt anyone read this far, but for those of you who did, let me tell you (once more) that we do not like Spanish carriers any better than you guys. Like the old ATC jokes goes, we hate you all the same. (A Joke). I know you feel pushed away from the LLZ just to see 10 IBE planes rushing ahead, or giving way on the ground to 5 JKKs, but believe me it's all in you head. It goes like this: Non Spanish carriers think Spanish carriers go first in our priority, but some Spanish operators feel the same regarding bigger Spanish operators. It is just not true and a childish discussion. Could it be that whoever flies more to Spain has more planes on the LLZ ahead of you? IBE, EZY, AFR, etc?
I again encourage you to come visit us in the TWR or my colleagues at the ControlCenter. And I personally try to get the best out of you guys and my other ATC colleagues around the world whenever I have the chance to visit them in my trips. I'm the kind of freak that carries my Air band radio on all my trips to see how other ATC and pilots do in different environments.
I've been away a few days and I first knew about the Vueling incident from my colleagues. I really hope the investigation is as deep as necessary, for the sake of safety. If we've done something wrong we must learn from it.
Believe me when I say nobody crosses an active runway in Barcelona unless is cleared by the local controller of that runway or coordinated between both GND and Local ATCs. From what I hear the incident is a bit more complex, and I don't know exactly what happened so I won't extend on this issue.
We use Spanish only with those aircrafts that FIRST communicate with us in Spanish, and even then, if the instruction or clearance involves another aircraft, and has not communicated in Spanish or has not talked yet to that controller, the language used will be English.
I believe myself we should use English at all times, although is not mandatory by ICAO, I think it is safer and so much easier for everyone.
And no, not all Spanair pilots speak English to us, and those who do, sometimes call first in English, only to go to next freq on Spanish, which is a pain in the rear.
If you want to improve your SA, you don't need to learn Spanish, but believe me, spending 5 minutes with local AIP and charts goes a long way, and I'm afraid not everyone posting here has spend that much time on it. And remember, like it or not, Jeppesen is not official in Spain, make sure you have the official AENA ones or the latest (and I mean LATEST) Jeppesen. Madrid and Barcelona are growing rapidly and not everyone is keeping up with updated charts on board.
I am afraid I also have to speak about our (ATC) concerns about Vueling. And this is not the thread, nor revenge, so I'll be quick. Their operation in Barcelona has improved greatly, but for some unknown reason to us, it just seems like they have been diverted to Barcelona and act like Barcelona is nor their base. I mean, they seem lost with many basic procedures, like runway change configurations due to noise abatement procedures, parking stands, and so forth. Again, AIP can be very helpful.
I have to inform those of you that have not flown here lately that runway crossing is now only permitted when the runway to cross is not active. That means a 10-15 minute taxi for take off "around" 25R-07L, but a safer operation. Again, if you are so worried about flying here check AIP, charts and the info you are supposed to know before flying anywhere.
I doubt anyone read this far, but for those of you who did, let me tell you (once more) that we do not like Spanish carriers any better than you guys. Like the old ATC jokes goes, we hate you all the same. (A Joke). I know you feel pushed away from the LLZ just to see 10 IBE planes rushing ahead, or giving way on the ground to 5 JKKs, but believe me it's all in you head. It goes like this: Non Spanish carriers think Spanish carriers go first in our priority, but some Spanish operators feel the same regarding bigger Spanish operators. It is just not true and a childish discussion. Could it be that whoever flies more to Spain has more planes on the LLZ ahead of you? IBE, EZY, AFR, etc?
I again encourage you to come visit us in the TWR or my colleagues at the ControlCenter. And I personally try to get the best out of you guys and my other ATC colleagues around the world whenever I have the chance to visit them in my trips. I'm the kind of freak that carries my Air band radio on all my trips to see how other ATC and pilots do in different environments.
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FACTO
A very well balanced posting!
Just one word: most pilots do not have the opportunity to check out the AIP! We have to rely on the documents supplied by the operator, not including i.e. the AIP.
A very well balanced posting!
Just one word: most pilots do not have the opportunity to check out the AIP! We have to rely on the documents supplied by the operator, not including i.e. the AIP.
Thread Starter
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Pilot/ ATC communications and discipline
Facto, Right On!! In my humble opinion you are on the money! but.....
" A CHAIN IS ONLY AS STRONG AS IT'S WEAKEST LINK "
Forgetting about language...
Barcelona's whole system is archaic. There are latent errors in the system.
Why is Barcelona still a training facility ?
There are controllers in BCN and Madrid who are not up to the standard and have no business being there.
I am sorry but in many ATC centers, as you know when such errors are made,they are pulled. Not in Barcelona.
If you cannot take the heat get out of the kitchen.
They have to be good, better and sharper than us pilots. We are concerned with 1 airplane . You have how many ?
With a quick mind and that ability to make those quick calculations.
In BCN The vectoring proficiency combined with speed control is not effective, now let us throw in a Thunderstorm with inexperienced pilots who may need someone to hold their hand.
The BCN Ground is dangerous. Ground will have to help unfamiliar pilots as in any airport.
You know it's true as you have seen how the Airspace is run in busier airspaces for example the New York area, simpler and more effective.
The AIP is not user friendly and easy to read ( or please show me the AENA link as I have been to the site.)
We both need greater discipline both pilots and controllers. I will be happy to visit the tower. We need to raise the standard.
I have heard some really good controllers and these people are amazing, masters of their universe.
We need this in Barcelona.
And will be talking to you soon..
P.S. FACTO---off the topic thread !! ( please respond on a new thread )
( 1. Your comments to Vueling new hire pilots are completely unrelated to this incident and should be on another post. But in the future ....
As the Vueling Capt. did well but we do not have the report.
Vueling As a rapidly growing company that is one of the lowest paid companies and not good conditions is constantly losing pilots ( to Clickair and... )
With a high turnover Vueling management does not care about losing experienced pilots, to save money, but it will cost them in the safety margin factor. They calculated that it is cheaper to train people. The CEO has made it his policy to keep pilots on low pay.
What he has to learn is what the cost of an incident is. Unfortunately.
Most likely the incident will involve an inexperienced crew.
One link in the chain with the other being ATC.
There a lot of new pilots to BCN maybe 20-30, so they too will make mistakes as they undergo training in this training airline.
There are a number of new contract pilots from France, elsewhere and ones coming from Madrid.They are flying a 100 hours a month a lot of sectors and do get tired. They get burnt out, then fresh contractors are brought in. The contractors are paid more than the Vueling pilots.
Many are experienced but some are not at all as Captains.
How many hours can you work as controllers ?
Are a lot of you working overtime ?
" A CHAIN IS ONLY AS STRONG AS IT'S WEAKEST LINK "
Forgetting about language...
Barcelona's whole system is archaic. There are latent errors in the system.
Why is Barcelona still a training facility ?
There are controllers in BCN and Madrid who are not up to the standard and have no business being there.
I am sorry but in many ATC centers, as you know when such errors are made,they are pulled. Not in Barcelona.
If you cannot take the heat get out of the kitchen.They have to be good, better and sharper than us pilots. We are concerned with 1 airplane . You have how many ?
With a quick mind and that ability to make those quick calculations.
In BCN The vectoring proficiency combined with speed control is not effective, now let us throw in a Thunderstorm with inexperienced pilots who may need someone to hold their hand.
The BCN Ground is dangerous. Ground will have to help unfamiliar pilots as in any airport.
You know it's true as you have seen how the Airspace is run in busier airspaces for example the New York area, simpler and more effective.
The AIP is not user friendly and easy to read ( or please show me the AENA link as I have been to the site.)
We both need greater discipline both pilots and controllers. I will be happy to visit the tower. We need to raise the standard.
I have heard some really good controllers and these people are amazing, masters of their universe.
We need this in Barcelona.
And will be talking to you soon..
P.S. FACTO---off the topic thread !! ( please respond on a new thread )
( 1. Your comments to Vueling new hire pilots are completely unrelated to this incident and should be on another post. But in the future ....
As the Vueling Capt. did well but we do not have the report.
Vueling As a rapidly growing company that is one of the lowest paid companies and not good conditions is constantly losing pilots ( to Clickair and... )
With a high turnover Vueling management does not care about losing experienced pilots, to save money, but it will cost them in the safety margin factor. They calculated that it is cheaper to train people. The CEO has made it his policy to keep pilots on low pay.
What he has to learn is what the cost of an incident is. Unfortunately.
Most likely the incident will involve an inexperienced crew.
One link in the chain with the other being ATC.
There a lot of new pilots to BCN maybe 20-30, so they too will make mistakes as they undergo training in this training airline.
There are a number of new contract pilots from France, elsewhere and ones coming from Madrid.They are flying a 100 hours a month a lot of sectors and do get tired. They get burnt out, then fresh contractors are brought in. The contractors are paid more than the Vueling pilots.
Many are experienced but some are not at all as Captains.
How many hours can you work as controllers ?
Are a lot of you working overtime ?
Last edited by Mach trim; 7th Feb 2007 at 20:43.
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I departed BCN today for the first time. It seems they are back to routing aircraft around the end of 25R to get to 25L. Yes, it may add some time, but it is inherently more safe. I wish I had 10-9 page in front of me; however, I'll say the ground controller issued taxi instructions which did not include the taxiway around the end of 25R. As the Captain and I were both first timers at BCN I asked for clarification from the ground controller who probably thought the route was obvious to a regular user. Other than that I thought the whole operation was stellar. Much easier than a lot of the other European airports we fly into. As I've always said, from ORD to EWR to LGW and all airports in between, taxiing is the most inherently dangerous thing we do.
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Sonnerdec,
If you ran a poll among airline pilots in Europe (Spanish included), there's very little doubt that Spain would rank at the very bottom in terms of ATC quality, and that includes the Canary Is too. Sorry, no disrespect intended, but it is a fact that there are systemic errors that may bring risk to an unacceptable level. We are talking airline safety here, no less. Do you really think everybody is biased against you and you are the victims of an Europeanwide difamatory complot? Do yourself a favour, why don't you pay a long, careful visit to other ATC units before proclaiming you are as good as anybody else?
Facto,
Your enthusiasm shows through your first post, and I bet you are doing your job professionally. However, you must concede that you are the odd one out in Barcelona. How many of your colleagues, most of them coming from other trades, endeavours or interests take the same professional attitude? And how many of them take quite an opposite, relaxed approach that is more typical of government officials?
Your enlightening paragraph about the AIP governing in Spain is quite naïve. AIP is the official publication everywhere, not just Spain. Jeppesen, or other providers are but an improved version of the official publication and cover everything that's on the AIP. The problem of pilots not knowing your latest lies somewhere else: change upon change, nonsense upon nonsense...
To all Spanish speaking buffs,
Air Maroc uses English in Morocco (although French is an ICAO approved language). That sort of pinpoints Spain position in a wider context. If a pilot or controller are not able to use English in every possible situation they have no place in the cockpit/ATC. There's too much at stake for nationalistic frivolities.
If you ran a poll among airline pilots in Europe (Spanish included), there's very little doubt that Spain would rank at the very bottom in terms of ATC quality, and that includes the Canary Is too. Sorry, no disrespect intended, but it is a fact that there are systemic errors that may bring risk to an unacceptable level. We are talking airline safety here, no less. Do you really think everybody is biased against you and you are the victims of an Europeanwide difamatory complot? Do yourself a favour, why don't you pay a long, careful visit to other ATC units before proclaiming you are as good as anybody else?
Facto,
Your enthusiasm shows through your first post, and I bet you are doing your job professionally. However, you must concede that you are the odd one out in Barcelona. How many of your colleagues, most of them coming from other trades, endeavours or interests take the same professional attitude? And how many of them take quite an opposite, relaxed approach that is more typical of government officials?
Your enlightening paragraph about the AIP governing in Spain is quite naïve. AIP is the official publication everywhere, not just Spain. Jeppesen, or other providers are but an improved version of the official publication and cover everything that's on the AIP. The problem of pilots not knowing your latest lies somewhere else: change upon change, nonsense upon nonsense...
To all Spanish speaking buffs,
Air Maroc uses English in Morocco (although French is an ICAO approved language). That sort of pinpoints Spain position in a wider context. If a pilot or controller are not able to use English in every possible situation they have no place in the cockpit/ATC. There's too much at stake for nationalistic frivolities.
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Kraut,
Thanks but do not rely blindly on the documents supplied by the operator if you feel there is something missing. Ask for updates whenever you see there is a deficiency on the information supplied. I’ve had pilots on the phone apologizing for a mistake, arguing that this or that procedure was not on their Jeppesen charts. NOTAMs are as well of vital importance.
Mach trim,
I just cannot agree with you about Barcelona whole system being archaic. I doubt there are many other major airport out there updating their procedures and rethinking them on a constant base like we do here.
We have constant political pressures, even contradictory at times, and we have to change procedures due to noise abatement issues and new infrastructure all the time. That means thinking all over again what the safest operation can be with the tools (taxiways, systems, etc) we are provided with.
If Barcelona had a problem, believe me it would not be it’s “archaic” system. Nothing remains the same here for more than 3 months. Maybe just the opposite, the always-evolving procedures.
I also have to let you know that Barcelona is not a training facility. There is just not such case in Spain. There has been a humongous traffic growth of over 200% from 1992’s 10 million pax to more than 30 million last year, and that can only be coped with a fresh batch of controllers every few months. So has Barcelona a fear amount of new controllers? Yes, that’s why on top of the instruction and simulator training given at the ATC school, local training is a BIG issue here.
Another statement to be discussed is BCN ground being dangerous. Really, have you taken a look at the taxi procedure in place now at Barcelona? It just cannot get any simpler. We have reduced the taxiway “knots” and conflicts to minimum levels. As I said on my first post, taxi time for departure has been increased, but with less interference, and arrival taxi is short and easy. I encourage you to check AIPs online. AENA’s is hosted here, and it’s as easy (or difficult?) as any other, believe me.
http://www14.aena.es/csee/Satellite?cid=1078418725020&pagename=AIS%2FHome_AIS&SMO=1&Si teName=NavegacionAerea&Section=1&c=Page&MO=2〈=EN_GB
And again, if you guys have any question, remember to always get the question out of the cockpit. Sounds silly uh? Well, you’d be amazed of how many phone conversations we have on the phone with pilots after a screw up, only to find out charts on board were not updated, NOTAMs not read and questions solved inside the cockpit. This is especially dangerous when pilots are not familiar with the airport. I have only had 3 pilots (!) on my frequency stating “unfamiliar with the airport”. We need to know that. Sometimes you can tell because of the hesitation on a pilots voice after an instruction, but it is not always the case, so speak up!
Regarding friendliness of AIP, like Te Rangi said, it is common to every airport and it follows standards and recommended practices of Annex 15 (ICAO Doc. 8126) and charts are in accordance with Annex 4 (ICAO Doc.8697). AIP might not be the friendliest aviation document, but most if not all the information contained is of vital importance. There might be other publications that summarize, reorganize and simplify information regarding an airport, but I doubt they provide information not contained in the official documentation.
And Te Rangi, we might rank low on your polls, but thanks to threads like this, where some people throw stuff without knowing the facts we get a worse image than deserved. It’s always easy to jump on the lynching wagon, specially when uninformed. We do have to improve, I said that before, but a lot of the damaged image comes from rumors and comments like some of the ones posted here.
Facts and figures do not support your statement about being much worse that other ATC units, specially considering the rapid growth and constant work in progress at the airfield.
One last thing. Issuing a clearance in Spanish does not imply we aren’t able to use English at all times. It is not being nationalistic, it is just applying ICAO regulations. To speak to the traffic using your official local language (if he wishes to and the language is ICAO approved) or English by default.
And I’m not sure about Morocco, but I think that even though French is widely used, even in some official documents, it is not an official language (somebody correct me), and therefore, cannot be used in Morocco as an ICAO language. In spite of that, yes, widespread use of English whenever there is a non Spanish speaking aircraft is safer. Period.
For those willing to know more about LEBL new procedures, here’s a link to the summarized version of the information provided to the companies operating to/from Barcelona. Worth checking I think.
http://www.copac.es/webCopac/nueva/a...26-oct2006.pdf
Thanks but do not rely blindly on the documents supplied by the operator if you feel there is something missing. Ask for updates whenever you see there is a deficiency on the information supplied. I’ve had pilots on the phone apologizing for a mistake, arguing that this or that procedure was not on their Jeppesen charts. NOTAMs are as well of vital importance.
Mach trim,
I just cannot agree with you about Barcelona whole system being archaic. I doubt there are many other major airport out there updating their procedures and rethinking them on a constant base like we do here.
We have constant political pressures, even contradictory at times, and we have to change procedures due to noise abatement issues and new infrastructure all the time. That means thinking all over again what the safest operation can be with the tools (taxiways, systems, etc) we are provided with.
If Barcelona had a problem, believe me it would not be it’s “archaic” system. Nothing remains the same here for more than 3 months. Maybe just the opposite, the always-evolving procedures.
I also have to let you know that Barcelona is not a training facility. There is just not such case in Spain. There has been a humongous traffic growth of over 200% from 1992’s 10 million pax to more than 30 million last year, and that can only be coped with a fresh batch of controllers every few months. So has Barcelona a fear amount of new controllers? Yes, that’s why on top of the instruction and simulator training given at the ATC school, local training is a BIG issue here.
Another statement to be discussed is BCN ground being dangerous. Really, have you taken a look at the taxi procedure in place now at Barcelona? It just cannot get any simpler. We have reduced the taxiway “knots” and conflicts to minimum levels. As I said on my first post, taxi time for departure has been increased, but with less interference, and arrival taxi is short and easy. I encourage you to check AIPs online. AENA’s is hosted here, and it’s as easy (or difficult?) as any other, believe me.
http://www14.aena.es/csee/Satellite?cid=1078418725020&pagename=AIS%2FHome_AIS&SMO=1&Si teName=NavegacionAerea&Section=1&c=Page&MO=2〈=EN_GB
And again, if you guys have any question, remember to always get the question out of the cockpit. Sounds silly uh? Well, you’d be amazed of how many phone conversations we have on the phone with pilots after a screw up, only to find out charts on board were not updated, NOTAMs not read and questions solved inside the cockpit. This is especially dangerous when pilots are not familiar with the airport. I have only had 3 pilots (!) on my frequency stating “unfamiliar with the airport”. We need to know that. Sometimes you can tell because of the hesitation on a pilots voice after an instruction, but it is not always the case, so speak up!
Regarding friendliness of AIP, like Te Rangi said, it is common to every airport and it follows standards and recommended practices of Annex 15 (ICAO Doc. 8126) and charts are in accordance with Annex 4 (ICAO Doc.8697). AIP might not be the friendliest aviation document, but most if not all the information contained is of vital importance. There might be other publications that summarize, reorganize and simplify information regarding an airport, but I doubt they provide information not contained in the official documentation.
And Te Rangi, we might rank low on your polls, but thanks to threads like this, where some people throw stuff without knowing the facts we get a worse image than deserved. It’s always easy to jump on the lynching wagon, specially when uninformed. We do have to improve, I said that before, but a lot of the damaged image comes from rumors and comments like some of the ones posted here.
Facts and figures do not support your statement about being much worse that other ATC units, specially considering the rapid growth and constant work in progress at the airfield.
One last thing. Issuing a clearance in Spanish does not imply we aren’t able to use English at all times. It is not being nationalistic, it is just applying ICAO regulations. To speak to the traffic using your official local language (if he wishes to and the language is ICAO approved) or English by default.
And I’m not sure about Morocco, but I think that even though French is widely used, even in some official documents, it is not an official language (somebody correct me), and therefore, cannot be used in Morocco as an ICAO language. In spite of that, yes, widespread use of English whenever there is a non Spanish speaking aircraft is safer. Period.
For those willing to know more about LEBL new procedures, here’s a link to the summarized version of the information provided to the companies operating to/from Barcelona. Worth checking I think.
http://www.copac.es/webCopac/nueva/a...26-oct2006.pdf
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Great post !!!
Facto,
Thank you for taking the time to write that post, it is much appreciated.
Just the facts,exactly.
"If Barcelona had a problem, believe me it would not be it’s “archaic” system. Nothing remains the same here for more than 3 months. Maybe just the opposite, the always-evolving procedures."
If one of the ATC bosses in BCN think that "the always-evolving procedures"
are a constant improvement he/she is mistaken.
As the procedural changes are not a continual improvement and sometimes make matters worse.
Why makes things more complicated ?
Why throw another variable into the equation ?
Yes there is a lot of construction going on and NOTAMs but ....
We are not reinventing the wheel here and this is something for Europe in general. Too much red tape. Simpler is safer in my humble opinion.
Hasta luego y buen servicio.
Thank you for taking the time to write that post, it is much appreciated.
Just the facts,exactly.
"If Barcelona had a problem, believe me it would not be it’s “archaic” system. Nothing remains the same here for more than 3 months. Maybe just the opposite, the always-evolving procedures."
If one of the ATC bosses in BCN think that "the always-evolving procedures"
are a constant improvement he/she is mistaken.
As the procedural changes are not a continual improvement and sometimes make matters worse.
Why makes things more complicated ?
Why throw another variable into the equation ?
Yes there is a lot of construction going on and NOTAMs but ....
We are not reinventing the wheel here and this is something for Europe in general. Too much red tape. Simpler is safer in my humble opinion.
Hasta luego y buen servicio.
Last edited by Mach trim; 9th Feb 2007 at 13:35.
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How about the most used ATC sentence in Spain?
There is one that gets the first prize, the famous "station calling say again", which gives you the idea that the controller has a problem understanding english or he/she is taking care of other things instead of doing his/her job.
There is one that gets the first prize, the famous "station calling say again", which gives you the idea that the controller has a problem understanding english or he/she is taking care of other things instead of doing his/her job.