Easy Jet - Emergency landing into John Lennon, Liverpool
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Shaggy Sheep Driver -says " there is no such thing as a 'fuel emergency' "
oh yes there is shaggy where we come from....down to your last 30 mins is a Pan which is final reserve fuel. Down to your last 15 mins of fuel is MAYDAY MAYDAY.
15mins fuel left in a jet is soiled undies ....even 30mins of juice left is exciting.
I always remember that poor unfortunate Avianca 707 going into NY and they ran out of juice after 2 GA's.
oh yes there is shaggy where we come from....down to your last 30 mins is a Pan which is final reserve fuel. Down to your last 15 mins of fuel is MAYDAY MAYDAY.
15mins fuel left in a jet is soiled undies ....even 30mins of juice left is exciting.
I always remember that poor unfortunate Avianca 707 going into NY and they ran out of juice after 2 GA's.
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Definitely not fun up there today. You could see the edge of the front clearly and the 150kt upper wind at FL240 along the back edge of it made getting back to the Island from LGW very boring....Good job we did, because not long after the wind got up to 68kts gusting, and they closed the airport as a LET410 tried to go flying and got it's wingtip stuck in the grass. No Fire cover as they were using the trucks to shield it from going right over. Sweet.
Fortunately we went tech so weren't going anywhere anyway....
Fortunately we went tech so weren't going anywhere anyway....
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Bearcat -
It really is all down to semantics. I will amplify my earlier reply to Shaggy for you - declaring a PAN is an emergency action. It can be for fuel, sick pax, malfunction and a whole host of reasons. The reason you call the PAN is an amplification (required so us ATCOs can help you appropriately). Therefore calling a PAN due to low fuel state is a fuel emergency.... I do not think that Shaggy will have ANY argument with this.
I believe, and I am sure Shaggy will correct me if I am interpereting his/her posts wrong that what they mean by "there is no such thing as a fuel emergency" is harking back to the old days when some airlines tried (succesfully for a while) to avoid holding, by asking for a "priority landing due to low fuel".
This achieved, for a while, the required effect, without the need for the pilots to fill in paperwork. Nice little wheeze for them - they get in ahead of the queue and have no questions asked.
To stop this, (in the UK at least), it was declared that fuel priority meant nothing to ATC any longer, and a PAN would be needed at the least for a priority landing. (We have guidelines saying what we can give away depending on wether it is a PAN or MAYDAY i.e. opposite direction landings to duty or non duty runways for MAYDAYs etc etc).
Calling a PAN becomes reportable, i.e. it is an incident, therefore paperwork ensues. This not only stops people from 'pulling a fast one' but when the report is published, it aids learning for other crews/ATC etc etc. It is one piece of the very open, blameless and unique reporting system the UK has, which aids people in the business to learn from other peoples mistakes/experiences.
Therefore, in a way, Shaggy is correct. It really is, all semantics.
Teamilk&sugar -
We
you are sooo wrong about ATC responses I am afraid - a PAN or MAYDAY will get pilots priority, just different levels. A PAN will get at the very least, a priority, no delay (under normal circumstances) approach. Before you ask me the same question you asked zkdli 3 posts above, the answer is YES.
It really is all down to semantics. I will amplify my earlier reply to Shaggy for you - declaring a PAN is an emergency action. It can be for fuel, sick pax, malfunction and a whole host of reasons. The reason you call the PAN is an amplification (required so us ATCOs can help you appropriately). Therefore calling a PAN due to low fuel state is a fuel emergency.... I do not think that Shaggy will have ANY argument with this.
I believe, and I am sure Shaggy will correct me if I am interpereting his/her posts wrong that what they mean by "there is no such thing as a fuel emergency" is harking back to the old days when some airlines tried (succesfully for a while) to avoid holding, by asking for a "priority landing due to low fuel".
This achieved, for a while, the required effect, without the need for the pilots to fill in paperwork. Nice little wheeze for them - they get in ahead of the queue and have no questions asked.
To stop this, (in the UK at least), it was declared that fuel priority meant nothing to ATC any longer, and a PAN would be needed at the least for a priority landing. (We have guidelines saying what we can give away depending on wether it is a PAN or MAYDAY i.e. opposite direction landings to duty or non duty runways for MAYDAYs etc etc).
Calling a PAN becomes reportable, i.e. it is an incident, therefore paperwork ensues. This not only stops people from 'pulling a fast one' but when the report is published, it aids learning for other crews/ATC etc etc. It is one piece of the very open, blameless and unique reporting system the UK has, which aids people in the business to learn from other peoples mistakes/experiences.
Therefore, in a way, Shaggy is correct. It really is, all semantics.
Teamilk&sugar -
We
ll, as far as my understanding goes, the only words ATC will need to hear, or indeed accept regarding fuel emergencies and to start reacting is "Mayday!"
There is no point in declaring a "Pan" as requesting a priority approach due low fuel means nothing to ATC. A Mayday is the only thing that will "get you ahead of the queue".
There is no point in declaring a "Pan" as requesting a priority approach due low fuel means nothing to ATC. A Mayday is the only thing that will "get you ahead of the queue".
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Good for the crew! have never been in the position, but can understand how it could happen!!!!!! maybe a little more time out there is what you need. I have been really worried about exactly that, where do we run to, before it becames a mess. Push, push, and push some more 
ed!!!!!
ed!!!!!
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"Therefore, in a way, Shaggy is correct. It really is, all semantics"....says Anything.
Your comments are noted.....why not send your comments and your licence into the CAA.
Your comments are noted.....why not send your comments and your licence into the CAA.
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I`m kinda baffled why no one has questioned if the current EZY fuel policy may be a contributing factor. Minimum fuel whenever possible. A short flight like the one in question, BFS - STN with LTN as alternate, should pose no operational restrictions on carrying some extra fuel due to the WX.
Is there any corporate pressure on you EZY drivers where low viz is the only "accepted" reason to carry extra?
Is there any corporate pressure on you EZY drivers where low viz is the only "accepted" reason to carry extra?
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Of course I'm correct!
'Fuel Emergency' is not a recognised declaration to ATC. However, most ATCOs are not pedants, and in the case I heard this afternoon, where the aircraft's captain had a poor command of english and no apparent plan following the go-around except to 'go somewhere where aeroplanes are landing', the ATCO dealt with it with supreme pofessionalism.
SSD
'Fuel Emergency' is not a recognised declaration to ATC. However, most ATCOs are not pedants, and in the case I heard this afternoon, where the aircraft's captain had a poor command of english and no apparent plan following the go-around except to 'go somewhere where aeroplanes are landing', the ATCO dealt with it with supreme pofessionalism.
SSD
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The a/c in question made an approach to EGSS and excecuted a go around due to the severe turbulence. There was a severe squall to the west of EGSS meaning the a/c had to turn left on the go around. Most of the a/c behind him went around as well. The pilot requsted the weather for Luton and East Midlands which were worse so he elected to go to EGGP. With the severe headwinds en route to EGGP his ground speed bearly exceeded 230kts.
BLE,
In orangeland our ops manual is no different to any other UK operators fuel policy. We are given the adult responsibility of adding fuel as we deem fit. I have never heard of anyone at Easyjet being spoken to about carrying excess fuel.
In orangeland our ops manual is no different to any other UK operators fuel policy. We are given the adult responsibility of adding fuel as we deem fit. I have never heard of anyone at Easyjet being spoken to about carrying excess fuel.
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Buffalow,
AFAIK, [day off today] the "slippery when wet" ATIS is being broadcast until the runway has been "decontaminated" [due to pilots landing their flying machines...and leaving deposits of rubber on the alighting surface]
IOW, MAN are cleaning the crud off the runway, so it is a "possibility" that 24L will be in operation [at night] over the weekend.
Hope this helps
watp,iktch
AFAIK, [day off today] the "slippery when wet" ATIS is being broadcast until the runway has been "decontaminated" [due to pilots landing their flying machines...and leaving deposits of rubber on the alighting surface]
IOW, MAN are cleaning the crud off the runway, so it is a "possibility" that 24L will be in operation [at night] over the weekend.
Hope this helps
watp,iktch
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gooday from downunder. in reply to what happens on the continent and beyond it does come down to an understanding between the crew and atc which is easier to manage if english is the common language. A mayday is used when an aircraft is in grave and imminent danger and a pan for anything less than a mayday but still requiring assistance. Both forms of emergency( priority) require ( if possible) for the a/c to state the nature of distress(mayday) or urgency(pan) which is the time to state fuel emergency and an indication of how urgent your need to approach is.There are no published guidelines as to how much fuel remaining constitutes an emergency or urgency, that is a question of how much pucker your arse is suffering. There will always be much less embarrassment in filling out an incident report than facing a post crash media flock.
There are no published guidelines as to how much fuel remaining constitutes an emergency or urgency,
Allright everyone,
Just read what Wizofoz just typed.
He is absolutely right. Less than 30 minutes requires a mayday call, and therefore is an emergency situation. I am probably looking at the same JAR-OPS text as he is.
Just read what Wizofoz just typed.
He is absolutely right. Less than 30 minutes requires a mayday call, and therefore is an emergency situation. I am probably looking at the same JAR-OPS text as he is.
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....and a PAN is declared at what point...?
...according to the Ops manual?
...because according to some posts that have been made here (some by current ATCO's) my Ops manual doesn't read the same as theirs!
Just want clarification...that's all!
...according to the Ops manual?
...because according to some posts that have been made here (some by current ATCO's) my Ops manual doesn't read the same as theirs!
Just want clarification...that's all!
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In my UK airline experience, consistently:
"When the a/c MAY land with less than reserves" ie I have less fuel than I would really like, and require special routing/handling to expedite my arrival at xxx (a potential 'fuel emergency'
), the aim being to AVOID landing with less than reserves, which would require a MAYDAY.
Should NOT be required on a well-planned routine diversion.
That's my go. (Just like the faster EGPF )
"When the a/c MAY land with less than reserves" ie I have less fuel than I would really like, and require special routing/handling to expedite my arrival at xxx (a potential 'fuel emergency'
), the aim being to AVOID landing with less than reserves, which would require a MAYDAY.Should NOT be required on a well-planned routine diversion.
That's my go. (Just like the faster EGPF
)
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My sister works at The Royal in Liverpool, her significant other is a surgeon. She called this morning to ask about an emergency at JL because apparently surgery had been canned for the morning in readiness for a disaster! It's good to know we're in safe hands if things do go wrong one day.
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Manchester 24R Slippery When Wet
Not to change the topic, I've done a search and found nothing on this yet.
A quick question:
I flew to Manchester yesterday, the ATIS was saying something like: "Part of the TDZ 24R is liable to be slippery when wet" (don't qoute me though), and refering to a NOTAM Which gave a little bit more detail.
For those of you flying into MAN today, was that reference in the ATIS today???
That info combined with the gusts would be quite worrying.
A quick question:
I flew to Manchester yesterday, the ATIS was saying something like: "Part of the TDZ 24R is liable to be slippery when wet" (don't qoute me though), and refering to a NOTAM Which gave a little bit more detail.
For those of you flying into MAN today, was that reference in the ATIS today???
That info combined with the gusts would be quite worrying.
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Cwatters,
Some places activate the "Major Emergency Plan" when a serious incident that may involve injury to or death of more than a certain number of people (I remember 12 from a seminar a few years back ). Once the M.E.P. is actioned, by a senior official (Perhaps Local Authority Mgt, Senior Police Officer ), then a "set piece" response swings into action. Emergency services position to the scene or likely scene, police cordon off areas, Ambulances Fire Appliances dispatched, auxiallary fire and ambulances called to duty and to answer your question, Hospitals brought to a status where they can readily recieve and cater for multiple casualties, this may involve cancelling some routine services, preparing facilities, mobilising staff and standby staff for "incomig".
I am a Pilot, not a medic, but had the chance to attend a briefing on such about 10 years back, in Ireland. Some may think such a strategy "over the top". But in reality, it is used to deal with serious incidents every day, such as serious traffic accidents, industrial accidents, terrorist threats and I remember Aircraft Emergencies being on the list too, because of the sheer number of possible casualties involved.
Of course in modern day political society, if the MEP is actioned and no crash/injuries occur, then many will cry "overkill". But if an aircraft full of pax did crash, and the MEP had not been actioned, then the same people would be screaming blue murder, looking for the guts of the person who did not action it.
Some places activate the "Major Emergency Plan" when a serious incident that may involve injury to or death of more than a certain number of people (I remember 12 from a seminar a few years back ). Once the M.E.P. is actioned, by a senior official (Perhaps Local Authority Mgt, Senior Police Officer ), then a "set piece" response swings into action. Emergency services position to the scene or likely scene, police cordon off areas, Ambulances Fire Appliances dispatched, auxiallary fire and ambulances called to duty and to answer your question, Hospitals brought to a status where they can readily recieve and cater for multiple casualties, this may involve cancelling some routine services, preparing facilities, mobilising staff and standby staff for "incomig".
I am a Pilot, not a medic, but had the chance to attend a briefing on such about 10 years back, in Ireland. Some may think such a strategy "over the top". But in reality, it is used to deal with serious incidents every day, such as serious traffic accidents, industrial accidents, terrorist threats and I remember Aircraft Emergencies being on the list too, because of the sheer number of possible casualties involved.
Of course in modern day political society, if the MEP is actioned and no crash/injuries occur, then many will cry "overkill". But if an aircraft full of pax did crash, and the MEP had not been actioned, then the same people would be screaming blue murder, looking for the guts of the person who did not action it.