Can Low-Cost pilots make it to retirement?
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To the guys who talk about the stress at work being not too high, compared with other lines of work. Perhaps, but that's not the whole story.
Flying charter, short-haul, I had the opportunity to request every XYZ evening off, or some other regular time period. This gave me the chance to indulge in some team sport. Others could do the same for night classes or joint venture with their family etc. There was life outside work. The same is possible with bidlines in long-haul.
LoCO, no chance. Fixed roster patterns that max'd and min'd everything. Sweat shop labour. There is very little chance to lead a balanced life. Each has their own, and it could be no more than a regular game of darts down the pub with your mates, or rugby/soccer/tennis in a team every xyz. Everytime I asked for a regular slot free I was told that favourable rostering was not available. My productivity would have been exactly the same. The company would have lost nothing, and it is exactly what a computer rostering system is for. In the end numerous pilots quit for a better balanced life style. Work, eat, sleep is not an option for too long.
I am friendly with a few AME's who shared their observation of pilots from a broad spectrum of companies. Their insight into the effect LoCo's life style had on mature experienced piltos, who have been through their hands for years, was very sobering.
Yes you can survive intense work until retirement; just don't start to early in life.
Flying charter, short-haul, I had the opportunity to request every XYZ evening off, or some other regular time period. This gave me the chance to indulge in some team sport. Others could do the same for night classes or joint venture with their family etc. There was life outside work. The same is possible with bidlines in long-haul.
LoCO, no chance. Fixed roster patterns that max'd and min'd everything. Sweat shop labour. There is very little chance to lead a balanced life. Each has their own, and it could be no more than a regular game of darts down the pub with your mates, or rugby/soccer/tennis in a team every xyz. Everytime I asked for a regular slot free I was told that favourable rostering was not available. My productivity would have been exactly the same. The company would have lost nothing, and it is exactly what a computer rostering system is for. In the end numerous pilots quit for a better balanced life style. Work, eat, sleep is not an option for too long.
I am friendly with a few AME's who shared their observation of pilots from a broad spectrum of companies. Their insight into the effect LoCo's life style had on mature experienced piltos, who have been through their hands for years, was very sobering.
Yes you can survive intense work until retirement; just don't start to early in life.
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This topic is ripe for some quantitative academic study.
My experience having just retired after 35 years in a short-haul airline environment and averaging 800 hrs pa is that there is no possibility of reaching retirement in good health.
Assuming excellent physical health, which means not drinking alcohol to excess, not smoking, exercising daily, living in a clean environment and saving every penny, the physical body might make it.
But at what cost mentally.
I retired at 58 and found that the brain dead sameness, day in day out led to zombie like fatigue and loss of vitality and joie de vivre.
A quarter of a century ago flying seemed to be more interesting, each flight an adventure, the characters were larger than life and interesting.
These days flying is mass transit bulk people mover, like trains 100 yrs ago.
Thank goodness my family could see what it was doing to me and begged me to retire.
My sympathies lie with those pilots who have to fly past 60 due to financial or other reasons.
My experience having just retired after 35 years in a short-haul airline environment and averaging 800 hrs pa is that there is no possibility of reaching retirement in good health.
Assuming excellent physical health, which means not drinking alcohol to excess, not smoking, exercising daily, living in a clean environment and saving every penny, the physical body might make it.
But at what cost mentally.
I retired at 58 and found that the brain dead sameness, day in day out led to zombie like fatigue and loss of vitality and joie de vivre.
A quarter of a century ago flying seemed to be more interesting, each flight an adventure, the characters were larger than life and interesting.
These days flying is mass transit bulk people mover, like trains 100 yrs ago.
Thank goodness my family could see what it was doing to me and begged me to retire.
My sympathies lie with those pilots who have to fly past 60 due to financial or other reasons.
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I too could only manage 6 years loco. Interestingly enough, as part of their findings into how less fatiguing working 5 straight early days in a row was etc, there was 1 little graph that clearly showed a noticable drop off in performance after 6 years that couldn't be recovered. However, it didn't get any further discussion.
Leaving easyJet, loco, was the best thing I ever did.
I now have an enjoyable life, like flying again and am way more involved with my family. And I'm no worse off financially.
In hindsight I was so bloody knackered all the time I just couldn't believe that I would be any less so with another outfit; the grass not being greener etc, so getting out of the exhaustion inertia and actually daring to believe I could have a better life was quite difficult.
Next time you're in the crew room take a good look at the faces around. How many are ashen, gray, or sallow? How many with black bags under the eyes? I did after my last leave in a loco and was shocked to see nearly everyone did. I knew I had to get out. I'm very pleased I did.
Leaving easyJet, loco, was the best thing I ever did.
I now have an enjoyable life, like flying again and am way more involved with my family. And I'm no worse off financially.
In hindsight I was so bloody knackered all the time I just couldn't believe that I would be any less so with another outfit; the grass not being greener etc, so getting out of the exhaustion inertia and actually daring to believe I could have a better life was quite difficult.
Next time you're in the crew room take a good look at the faces around. How many are ashen, gray, or sallow? How many with black bags under the eyes? I did after my last leave in a loco and was shocked to see nearly everyone did. I knew I had to get out. I'm very pleased I did.
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Balance, as RAT-5 says, is everything. A typical airline day isn't a predicable nine-to-five (with lunch hour) and the relentless game played by every scheduling department to squeeze out the last drops of productivity can and does lead to fatigue. Consistent disruption of sleep patterns along with the inability to pursue an outside interest takes a heavy toll. Most retiring at 60 really need to - the aging process in their middle to late 50s having seemingly accelerated. Carry on until 65? It would be safer and more humane to take those wishing to carry on past 60 round the back of the hangar and shoot them.
Chart/graph attached which makes for not particularly happy reading as the Reaper hones his scythe.
Chart/graph attached which makes for not particularly happy reading as the Reaper hones his scythe.
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Yes, That is an interesting chart. You can find it here:
http://isggm.calisma.gov.tr/docs/sun...Paul_Weber.ppt
http://isggm.calisma.gov.tr/docs/sun...Paul_Weber.ppt
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RAT 5 I suspect you were very lucky to be able to negotiate regular days or evenings free of duty, did you work for a British company with two initials per chance? (If so, the same company still has those initials in capitals unlike all the other muppet airlines who market themselves with lowercase - speaks volumes for the company in terms of a dumbing-down all around)
I think there are very few short-haul carriers who offer such facilities which is a shame because it is exactly that intense sort of flying that would benefit from more control over ones' precious private and social life in order to get whatever type of relaxation/leisure that enables ones' batteries to recharge.
Pilots are really being exploited, just because they have a passion for what they do although not many will admit to it, one has to have passion to jump through all the hoops to get a license. The airlines know this and exploit us to the max. Shame, I would love to have flown for the airlines 30 years ago although I am sure the pilots of the time had different issues - FTLs, a/c reliability/safety etc.
NH.
I think there are very few short-haul carriers who offer such facilities which is a shame because it is exactly that intense sort of flying that would benefit from more control over ones' precious private and social life in order to get whatever type of relaxation/leisure that enables ones' batteries to recharge.
Pilots are really being exploited, just because they have a passion for what they do although not many will admit to it, one has to have passion to jump through all the hoops to get a license. The airlines know this and exploit us to the max. Shame, I would love to have flown for the airlines 30 years ago although I am sure the pilots of the time had different issues - FTLs, a/c reliability/safety etc.
NH.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Yes I believe I can make it to retirement.
There are 55 (according to eJ newsletter) low cost airlines operating in Europe. All will schedule differently and have different workloads so to generalise "low cost" is a mistake.
BA LGW shorthaul are now doing 900 hours a year. I suspect many more airlines which are not classified as "Low Cost" have altered their rostering to achieve maximisation.
Longhaul pilots fly their 900 hours a year and have their body clocks screwed.
It's all horses for courses.
To survive till retirement you have to find your niche in aviation.
Low Cost/Regional Base is my niche and suits me, long haul is not. I have the options of applying for a 75% roster or a 50% roster. Maybe that is something I will look at later in life.
The Orange world of 365 days ago is very different to today's
Perhaps the question should be whether pilots in general can make it too retirement. I work half as hard as my wife (construction professional) for just under double the money
I don't believe I am knackering myself, just working as hard as any other professional in todays economy.
There are 55 (according to eJ newsletter) low cost airlines operating in Europe. All will schedule differently and have different workloads so to generalise "low cost" is a mistake.
BA LGW shorthaul are now doing 900 hours a year. I suspect many more airlines which are not classified as "Low Cost" have altered their rostering to achieve maximisation.
Longhaul pilots fly their 900 hours a year and have their body clocks screwed.
It's all horses for courses.
To survive till retirement you have to find your niche in aviation.
Low Cost/Regional Base is my niche and suits me, long haul is not. I have the options of applying for a 75% roster or a 50% roster. Maybe that is something I will look at later in life.
The Orange world of 365 days ago is very different to today's
Perhaps the question should be whether pilots in general can make it too retirement. I work half as hard as my wife (construction professional) for just under double the money
I don't believe I am knackering myself, just working as hard as any other professional in todays economy.
ex-Tanker
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turn round time
Personally I enjoyed the short turn rounds - the adrenaline didn't die away, only to have to be reapplied when the baggage arrived 50 minutes later.
That was the case on the standard airline for which I flew before (probably the same one Fluke flew for) where you hung around on the ground, reading the paper, shopping or dozing and getting out of the swing of flying.
Anyway I did the LC for the last 5 years and retired at 60. As most pilots know, most of the problems occur on the ground - once you get airborne life is much more peaceful.
And by the way, since when was Hey a latin word?
FC.
That was the case on the standard airline for which I flew before (probably the same one Fluke flew for) where you hung around on the ground, reading the paper, shopping or dozing and getting out of the swing of flying.
Anyway I did the LC for the last 5 years and retired at 60. As most pilots know, most of the problems occur on the ground - once you get airborne life is much more peaceful.
And by the way, since when was Hey a latin word?
FC.
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Indeed, today's easyJet is quite different from the days when everyone was shattered all of the time. I have a fixed patteren allowing me to know with certainty what I shall be doing months in advance. I know i will always enjoy a block of 3 or 4 days off after each working block of 5 days. A week of earlies is no different to any other shift pattern, and it's a damn site more enjoyable than working shifts in a factory, or the police force, or many other shift jobs. More importantly, after my 5th early I can lay in more the next 12 days. Love that.
As someone else said, short turnarounds are preferable to long and lazy ones. The quicker you're airborne, the sooner you're finished. There's nothing worse than hanging around.
I fly a mix of 2 and 4 sector days, some days are long, but there are no night stops, no night flights and no jet lag. The standards are high, the aircraft's the best, and my colleagues - with very few exceptions - are great to spend the day with.
Can I do this until retirements? Probably, it would be the monotony which kills me long before the fatigue. But with part time opportunities available , and if you can afford it, you'd surely consider it whatever job you were doing.
On a final note: what's all this fuss about capital letters in the name? It's not just lo-co companies using lower case, it's widespread in many industries. It's a modern thing, may be that explains it?
JB
As someone else said, short turnarounds are preferable to long and lazy ones. The quicker you're airborne, the sooner you're finished. There's nothing worse than hanging around.
I fly a mix of 2 and 4 sector days, some days are long, but there are no night stops, no night flights and no jet lag. The standards are high, the aircraft's the best, and my colleagues - with very few exceptions - are great to spend the day with.
Can I do this until retirements? Probably, it would be the monotony which kills me long before the fatigue. But with part time opportunities available , and if you can afford it, you'd surely consider it whatever job you were doing.
On a final note: what's all this fuss about capital letters in the name? It's not just lo-co companies using lower case, it's widespread in many industries. It's a modern thing, may be that explains it?
JB
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What on earth makes Mary think that lo-co flying is any more tiring/draining/stressful/whatever than having to work in a 'proper' job for a living, like 99% of the rest of the world manage to do perfectly adequately for their working lives?
I'm at a UK lo-co, and personally it's just one long tea break and monumental skive compared to my previous existence. But then again, it all depends what you're used to. I suppose if all you've ever done is fly, then lo-co probably seems like hard work, but frankly I've never had so much free time or so little to do during the working day.
Work for a living? No thanks. Been there, done that, bought (and sold) the t-shirt.
I'm at a UK lo-co, and personally it's just one long tea break and monumental skive compared to my previous existence. But then again, it all depends what you're used to. I suppose if all you've ever done is fly, then lo-co probably seems like hard work, but frankly I've never had so much free time or so little to do during the working day.
Work for a living? No thanks. Been there, done that, bought (and sold) the t-shirt.
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Balance, as RAT-5 says, is everything. A typical airline day isn't a predicable nine-to-five (with lunch hour) and the relentless game played by every scheduling department to squeeze out the last drops of productivity can and does lead to fatigue. Consistent disruption of sleep patterns along with the inability to pursue an outside interest takes a heavy toll. Most retiring at 60 really need to - the aging process in their middle to late 50s having seemingly accelerated. Carry on until 65? It would be safer and more humane to take those wishing to carry on past 60 round the back of the hangar and shoot them.
Chart/graph attached which makes for not particularly happy reading as the Reaper hones his scythe.
Chart/graph attached which makes for not particularly happy reading as the Reaper hones his scythe.
Now then, I am a very simple person. It has always been my understanding that in order to reach an average figure, 50% of candidates have to be below the line and 50% have to be above the line.
Therefore, to achieve the figure that the average age of those who retire at 65 will die at age 66.8 then does that mean that 50% of pilots who retire at the age of 65 will die within the next 1.8 years?
So far, I am bucking the trend!
Therefore, to achieve the figure that the average age of those who retire at 65 will die at age 66.8 then does that mean that 50% of pilots who retire at the age of 65 will die within the next 1.8 years?
So far, I am bucking the trend!
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Well, listening out to some of the F/Os in our LC outfit just makes me wonder how they will make it to any sort of retirement 
Most of them started like 2 to 3 years ago, are aged somewhere between 27 and 35, and moan the whole day long, what a sad picture.
As for me, having started my piloting carrer quite late in life, I now enjoy every minute of flight. Just recalling the days before (...when I had to really work...) brings the smile to my face, thanks
Most of them started like 2 to 3 years ago, are aged somewhere between 27 and 35, and moan the whole day long, what a sad picture.
As for me, having started my piloting carrer quite late in life, I now enjoy every minute of flight. Just recalling the days before (...when I had to really work...) brings the smile to my face, thanks
Well, I have said this before and I have to say that the youngsters are the problem. I retired at 65 and only missed two flights in 19 years. The youngsters were forever going sick.
My theory is that the young pilots of today have been innoculated against every damned thing on the planet such that their immune system does not exist any more.
Us old pharts who caught measles, Geman measles, chicken pox, mumps, scarlet fever etc etc and got it all out of the way when we were kids are quite likely to last until we are 85.
I hold out no such hopes for Tony Blair's young and well protected kids!
My theory is that the young pilots of today have been innoculated against every damned thing on the planet such that their immune system does not exist any more.
Us old pharts who caught measles, Geman measles, chicken pox, mumps, scarlet fever etc etc and got it all out of the way when we were kids are quite likely to last until we are 85.
I hold out no such hopes for Tony Blair's young and well protected kids!
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Not convinced that flying low cost 4 sectors/days is more tiring than long haul flight....
Most of the low cost, you may fly 4 sectors a day, but you are at home every night, no jet lag...
Long haul flight, you may have a lot of long night flight, jet lag...wich i think for me is much more vicious for your health and your body....
Most of the low cost, you may fly 4 sectors a day, but you are at home every night, no jet lag...
Long haul flight, you may have a lot of long night flight, jet lag...wich i think for me is much more vicious for your health and your body....
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Maude Charlee, I worked in The City for five years, usually six days per week and five days of that week were 0700-1900 and later. I was a little younger then but the tiredness was nothing compared to short-haul flying with a regular and a loco operator.Long-haul is better for me. As someone said earlier - horses for courses.
NH
NH
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Retirement chart origin.
The bumph in the preamble states that a Dr. Ephrem Cheng derived the chart with the study group being retirees of Boeing Aerospace, the data being provided by actual pension payments deposited in the retirees' bank accounts plotted as a function of age.
The impetus for the study - the bumph goes on to state, was that retirement funds with Lucent technologies, AT+T, Lockheed-Martin and others weren't drawing down as expected because retirees weren't living long enough to take out the expected sums.
The study was presented as a lecture in 2002.
The impetus for the study - the bumph goes on to state, was that retirement funds with Lucent technologies, AT+T, Lockheed-Martin and others weren't drawing down as expected because retirees weren't living long enough to take out the expected sums.
The study was presented as a lecture in 2002.