Can Low-Cost pilots make it to retirement?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 17 Cherry Tree Lane
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can Low-Cost pilots make it to retirement?
This may be a trivial question and we might never really know the answer but I'll ask it anyway:
The reality of the day to day work of an airline pilot has changed tremendously since the introduction of Low-Cost carriers. Lots of sectors, long shifts, being stuck in the same type all your career etc...
Is the human body capable of coping with that til retirement?
If the answer is even remotely no then we've got a huge problem.
Flying for such an airline, all I hear is talk about fatigue.
Mary.
The reality of the day to day work of an airline pilot has changed tremendously since the introduction of Low-Cost carriers. Lots of sectors, long shifts, being stuck in the same type all your career etc...
Is the human body capable of coping with that til retirement?
If the answer is even remotely no then we've got a huge problem.
Flying for such an airline, all I hear is talk about fatigue.
Mary.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 39N 77W
Posts: 1,630
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One US lo-co, Southwest, has been around long enough that there must be quite a number of retirees.
Retirees will have flown three generations of the 737: -200, -300 and -700. Whatever the working conditions might be, their pilot's pay is top-dollar in the US airline industry.
Retirees will have flown three generations of the 737: -200, -300 and -700. Whatever the working conditions might be, their pilot's pay is top-dollar in the US airline industry.
Grandpa Aerotart
Mary if you add up all the whinging pilots you see on this website it would not total a fraction of 1% of the pilots flying for various companies..LCC or not.
One of the drawbacks to the internet is it allows morons who never had a voice an instant audience and credibility beyond their worth. That applies to not just pilots but across the spectrum of society.
One of the drawbacks to the internet is it allows morons who never had a voice an instant audience and credibility beyond their worth. That applies to not just pilots but across the spectrum of society.
Grandpa Aerotart
Indeed...if someone arrives at retirement in no fit condition, financially or phyically, it is no-ones fault but their own.
It excercises my mind, on rare occassions, as to why people can whinge long and loud about LCC T&Cs when they are generally several or 4 times better than population 'average'.
While it is a completely different subject it would be more beneficial, to society, if we, as a society, asked the hard questions of our elected representatives as to just why 'mr and mrs average' have not had a payrise, that came even close to keeping up with real inflation, since 1972.
It excercises my mind, on rare occassions, as to why people can whinge long and loud about LCC T&Cs when they are generally several or 4 times better than population 'average'.
While it is a completely different subject it would be more beneficial, to society, if we, as a society, asked the hard questions of our elected representatives as to just why 'mr and mrs average' have not had a payrise, that came even close to keeping up with real inflation, since 1972.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reality of the day to day work of an airline pilot has changed tremendously since the introduction of Low-Cost carriers. Lots of sectors, long shifts, being stuck in the same type all your career etc...
Is the human body capable of coping with that til retirement?
If the answer is even remotely no then we've got a huge problem.
Flying for such an airline, all I hear is talk about fatigue.
Is the human body capable of coping with that til retirement?
If the answer is even remotely no then we've got a huge problem.
Flying for such an airline, all I hear is talk about fatigue.
being stuck in the same type all your career....what? You think having to constantly study and learn new aircraft is LESS stressful?
When your 20, sure go for it...when your 40 and have more to lose if you screw up...
Flying for such an airline, all I hear is talk about fatigue. .... there is fatigue at all levels of airlines, mainly because the passengers demand to be able to fly where ever they want knowing that they can sleep all the way and have a great time on arrival. Next time you go on vacation and you see those sorry looking crew members pass you by....just remember, your off to party and they are going to sleep.
Which could be why kick the tires would never go back to charter.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tracy Island
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have just started low cost flying and I am having to learn how to keep up,the cabin crew have commented at how slow I taxi and my take off landing briefs go on too long.Its difficult having spent 15 years doing what I thought was the right thing to get into the rush mindset!
When I get on stand now my next sector pax are all lined up ready to get on,no chance for a pee and cup of tea,its go go go.
Guess I will have to find ways of making time.
I know many pruners have been doing this for years,tell me it gets easier.
When I get on stand now my next sector pax are all lined up ready to get on,no chance for a pee and cup of tea,its go go go.
Guess I will have to find ways of making time.
I know many pruners have been doing this for years,tell me it gets easier.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Dirty Sands
Age: 61
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting question, May P.
Is the human body capable of coping with that til retirement?
I guess so. The human body is quite adaptable.
That it is able to enjoy it till retirement is an altogether different thing!
Is the human body capable of coping with that til retirement?
I guess so. The human body is quite adaptable.
That it is able to enjoy it till retirement is an altogether different thing!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Jankara
Age: 64
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why shouldn't they make it to retirement? Some stress is necessary for a healthy body and mind. Many helicopter pilots fly 600 - 800 hours a year single pilot, 50 - 150 sectors per day with no aircon and still we make it to 60 and beyond...........
Join Date: May 2005
Location: u.k.
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having flown with low cost airlines for sometime,the most common comment from pilots i hear is 'there's no way i can keep doing this until retirement' -
I think deep down people know it is not the healthiest environment of work,but some people can ignore health and quality of life if the price is right!
We all have freedom of choice at the end of the day!!
I think deep down people know it is not the healthiest environment of work,but some people can ignore health and quality of life if the price is right!
We all have freedom of choice at the end of the day!!
Tell me that is a typo, please!
Talking of making it to retirement, one element of stress I see in the current generation of airline pilots is the way career progression now works in some companies,countries.
In days gone by you would join as a SO/FO/FE on smaller regional machines, probably in your twenties. Then move up to a more sophisticated perhaps long haul position as you neared thirty. An initial command back on the first type a few years later meant you were mostly local as important life issues such as marriage and kids were happenning. Through your forties you might fly the likes of DC-9's and 727's until only in your's 50's did your seniority cough up a longhaul command on 747's or DC 10's.
These days I know of pilots who joined on the 747 in their 20's in the early 1980's and are still flying them today, twenty years non stop and probably another twenty to go.
I think forty years of constant long haul flying is at least as badly researched as any of the problems associated with LLC's. Whats worse is the possibility both factors may combine in the future if the market demands it.
In days gone by you would join as a SO/FO/FE on smaller regional machines, probably in your twenties. Then move up to a more sophisticated perhaps long haul position as you neared thirty. An initial command back on the first type a few years later meant you were mostly local as important life issues such as marriage and kids were happenning. Through your forties you might fly the likes of DC-9's and 727's until only in your's 50's did your seniority cough up a longhaul command on 747's or DC 10's.
These days I know of pilots who joined on the 747 in their 20's in the early 1980's and are still flying them today, twenty years non stop and probably another twenty to go.
I think forty years of constant long haul flying is at least as badly researched as any of the problems associated with LLC's. Whats worse is the possibility both factors may combine in the future if the market demands it.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: London
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mary P. It is a very valid question as anyone who has worked for not just a low-cost carrier knows, but any short-haul or charter airline.
The low-cost carriers are in danger of having a rapid turnover of pilots leading to a shortage of training personnel and lower overall experience level.
Life as a short-haul pilot be it scheduled, charter or low-cost is a complex set of compromises if a pilot desires a long-term career together with a 'traditional' family, not to mention 'quality of life' issues. The compromises have to be met with a fairly optimistic outlook on life which is where the company can help if it has good employee relationships.
I have flown for short-haul scheduled, charter and low-cost operations, the last of which made me decide to seek long-haul flying or look for a career outside of aviation as I could not imagine working another 22 years with the work patterns I was working and the impact that had on a 'normal' life. By 'normal' I mean married with 2.1 kids, living in the south of England and wanting to have a meaningful and useful input into the rearing of said children and being one half of a marriage.
This country does not have any pilots that have worked solely for low-cost pilots for a full career yet and so nobody knows what sort of impact working for one will have on the average individual, but I have known people who have moved to low-cost operations for various reasons, beit chasing an early command, avoiding congestion by working a regional airports etc., some with happy stories, some with not.
Only time will tell, I can only suggest that the many tightening of belts squeezing more and more out of the pilot workforce is enough make many people consider new careers, and people who brand pilots who speak of tiredness and fatigue as whingers should try getting up at 0400 day after day to make the 0525 report at Heathrow and then for their working week to fiinish on late duties even though your body is still waking up at 0400, or in the case of the charter pilot who never sees the light of day for many months during the year.
Unfortunately, at pilot recruitment and training conferences, nobody speaks of the realities that pilots have to deal with in their personal lives if they choose to become pilots. Do people at training roadshows get told that some of the employers to which they aspire to work for make the candidate pay for he recruitment process, type rating, accomodation and transport to the rating wherever it may be in the world, and then after all that expense the job is not guaranteed?
On a lighter note, long-haul is also tiring but feels like a different tiredness. I myself have a general 'shallow' tiredness which is preferable to me than the deep troughs of tiredness with short-haul operations. Each to his own.
It will be very interesting to see BALPA stats in a few years' time.
The low-cost carriers are in danger of having a rapid turnover of pilots leading to a shortage of training personnel and lower overall experience level.
Life as a short-haul pilot be it scheduled, charter or low-cost is a complex set of compromises if a pilot desires a long-term career together with a 'traditional' family, not to mention 'quality of life' issues. The compromises have to be met with a fairly optimistic outlook on life which is where the company can help if it has good employee relationships.
I have flown for short-haul scheduled, charter and low-cost operations, the last of which made me decide to seek long-haul flying or look for a career outside of aviation as I could not imagine working another 22 years with the work patterns I was working and the impact that had on a 'normal' life. By 'normal' I mean married with 2.1 kids, living in the south of England and wanting to have a meaningful and useful input into the rearing of said children and being one half of a marriage.
This country does not have any pilots that have worked solely for low-cost pilots for a full career yet and so nobody knows what sort of impact working for one will have on the average individual, but I have known people who have moved to low-cost operations for various reasons, beit chasing an early command, avoiding congestion by working a regional airports etc., some with happy stories, some with not.
Only time will tell, I can only suggest that the many tightening of belts squeezing more and more out of the pilot workforce is enough make many people consider new careers, and people who brand pilots who speak of tiredness and fatigue as whingers should try getting up at 0400 day after day to make the 0525 report at Heathrow and then for their working week to fiinish on late duties even though your body is still waking up at 0400, or in the case of the charter pilot who never sees the light of day for many months during the year.
Unfortunately, at pilot recruitment and training conferences, nobody speaks of the realities that pilots have to deal with in their personal lives if they choose to become pilots. Do people at training roadshows get told that some of the employers to which they aspire to work for make the candidate pay for he recruitment process, type rating, accomodation and transport to the rating wherever it may be in the world, and then after all that expense the job is not guaranteed?
On a lighter note, long-haul is also tiring but feels like a different tiredness. I myself have a general 'shallow' tiredness which is preferable to me than the deep troughs of tiredness with short-haul operations. Each to his own.
It will be very interesting to see BALPA stats in a few years' time.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nicely Put, NS. To introduce another angle, surely it has more to do with the physiological capability of individual pilots? Outside of aviation, it is recognised that a certain percentage of employees have health problems from working different types of shift patterns. Equally, some employees recognise that the shift pattern they are on is not good for them, however they continue on to their detriment for either financial or personal reasons. None of these guys suffer from the complementary debilitating effects of jet lag on top of the shift patterns, which must be an extra physiological stress - for some.
Some will not be able to handle the stresses of short haul loco flying in the medium to longer term - equally, long haul is very destructive physically and mentally for some people. Plus ca change.
Some will not be able to handle the stresses of short haul loco flying in the medium to longer term - equally, long haul is very destructive physically and mentally for some people. Plus ca change.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've left the low cost industry, after 6 years,around 5 months ago and can honestly say its the best thing I've done in my career. I have now lost weight, my blood pressure has returned to normal and feel alive again. I now have a life other than work and have lost that burnt out feeling that I'd got so used too. I generally feel 10 years younger and am much less of a grumpy old man(according to my kids!) she who must be obeyed has also noticed a pleasant change!
I'm not the type to moan about hard work but I'm sure that if I stayed in the low cost sector I would not have made it to retirement.I would have had health issues or killed myself driving home after a 20 sector block.
I now fly for a corporate operator still do a lot of flying but have more recovery time between shifts which has made a hugh differance.
I'm not the type to moan about hard work but I'm sure that if I stayed in the low cost sector I would not have made it to retirement.I would have had health issues or killed myself driving home after a 20 sector block.
I now fly for a corporate operator still do a lot of flying but have more recovery time between shifts which has made a hugh differance.
It's not the actual amount of work that's the problem.
It's the constant minimum rest between blocks. Just no time to readjust.
I'm afraid for the new breed.
Rgds, Sleeve. (18000hrs of it.)
