Can Low-Cost pilots make it to retirement?
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and there was I worring about my pension fund returns
Cannot retire at 50 (as will not have enough money according to my financial adviser, so making ot to late 80 will result in me living in a box under Waterloo bridge) but if I go on until 65, looks like I'll only need 3-5 years of funds, so my old hips will have to keep up with some hetic parting around the club house.
was it Carnegie who said, good cash flow is spending your last dollar just before you die?????
PS Glad to see some pilots admit it easier inside the cockpit that outside. The newbies always complaining and now I am begining to sound like my grand father (you tell say a medical professional your hours and they'll come back with scary stats on hours worked and these guys are working directly on people...) but from several studies the persons with the most stress in their jobs are those who perceive they have no control over their work/environment.
Cannot retire at 50 (as will not have enough money according to my financial adviser, so making ot to late 80 will result in me living in a box under Waterloo bridge) but if I go on until 65, looks like I'll only need 3-5 years of funds, so my old hips will have to keep up with some hetic parting around the club house.
was it Carnegie who said, good cash flow is spending your last dollar just before you die?????
PS Glad to see some pilots admit it easier inside the cockpit that outside. The newbies always complaining and now I am begining to sound like my grand father (you tell say a medical professional your hours and they'll come back with scary stats on hours worked and these guys are working directly on people...) but from several studies the persons with the most stress in their jobs are those who perceive they have no control over their work/environment.
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There are hundreds of different flying jobs and within the low cost sector in the UK alone the job can vary a great deal.
On top of that you have people at different stages of their career in different personal situations. I do object to pilots who have been in the job five minutes telling me what a skive it is! Funny how it's a long way from that when they are training. I've never seen a perfect flight, have you? Sooner or later they'll have a scare and maybe think again.
My personal experience is such that I have seen lots of stress in very short timescales in some jobs, definitely not sustainable.
On top of that you have people at different stages of their career in different personal situations. I do object to pilots who have been in the job five minutes telling me what a skive it is! Funny how it's a long way from that when they are training. I've never seen a perfect flight, have you? Sooner or later they'll have a scare and maybe think again.
My personal experience is such that I have seen lots of stress in very short timescales in some jobs, definitely not sustainable.
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What about regular exercise and a healthy diet? Thats the biggest challenge I find in this career. I can't eat the crew food at my loco, it's abysmal and contains all the nutritional value of deep fried cardboard. And all I do is sit on my arse all day. I know full well if I'm going to do another 40 years of this I need to keep up the gym and sort my own diet out, and continue to have the discipline to stick to it.
Having a life outside the cockpit surely helps reduce the stress we are exposed to while at work. I fly with some guys who clearly hate their job. I don't think that helps matters much. I'm still in my first few years of flying but so far I wouldn't swap it for anything. So I hope if I can keep a realistic view of the job and stay healthy and happy outside work who knows maybe I will reach 65. Having said that if I want any sort of pension by 2047 I'll probably need to keep working until I die anyway
Now you'll have to excuse me, I need to ring crewing and get out of my horrible 4 sector day, got a sniffle and a major hangover.
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Actuary (and non-pilot) speaking.
The mortality table makes little sense to me. The use of the vague term "average" suggests that it wasn't produced by a professional statistician. If anyone can find the original on the web, please send me a link and I'll try to take a look at it in context (I've looked at the Turkish PPT doc from which the image was taken, but that doesn't provide any more info).
It's even worse than JW411 suggests - for every person in the study who retired at 65 and lived to age 70, around 6 must have died before 66.8 to keep the average (arithmetic mean) at that value. That would be a rather poor survival rate even for a group that had been diagnosed with a fatal medical condition!
The mortality table makes little sense to me. The use of the vague term "average" suggests that it wasn't produced by a professional statistician. If anyone can find the original on the web, please send me a link and I'll try to take a look at it in context (I've looked at the Turkish PPT doc from which the image was taken, but that doesn't provide any more info).
It's even worse than JW411 suggests - for every person in the study who retired at 65 and lived to age 70, around 6 must have died before 66.8 to keep the average (arithmetic mean) at that value. That would be a rather poor survival rate even for a group that had been diagnosed with a fatal medical condition!
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I have been fortunate enough to fly a wide range of roles both in the RAF and as a civil airline pilot. In the civil world, which I started in at age 53, the role I found most stimulating and least fatiguing was the one most akin to loco operations. That was with Air Europe flying the F100. Regular 4 sector days with 45 minute turn-rounds (Paris/Brussels?Dusseldorf), frequently home and finished by midday, virtually no night flying - fabulous. I thought I had gone to heaven and felt I could have done even more. Then, of course, the firm went bust and I ended up on charter work (bucket and spade version). I found the constantly changing shift patterns with long boring night flights with stressfull turn-rounds, very hard to cope with. Long haul appeared a stroll in the park by comparison, although the constant jet lag (which I understand one never adapts to) must be a significant factor. I can only conclude that the problem is not in the actual hours worked in loco, but in the lack of self esteem that the changing status of the airline pilot engenders. It is this, and the lack of regard in which employers in the loco industry hold their employees that, I suspect, is at the root of the moans that fill the threads of PPrune.
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Another non-pilot and partially fledged actuary here, regarding that retirement age vs. life expectancy chart. The blurb at the bottom of the chart dangerously suggests a cause and effect of work more year, lose two from your lifespan. Consider the population that retires at age 50. They are likely to be higher income, better educated, and probably in better health. Conversely, those still working at 65 are likely still working because they have to, not because they want to, and are a less-advantaged population, overall. This could be more of an explanation than work itself causing reduced lifespan.
In any case, on average, someone who retires at 65 living only to 66.8? As the (fully-fledged) actuary above said, that makes no sense.
In any case, on average, someone who retires at 65 living only to 66.8? As the (fully-fledged) actuary above said, that makes no sense.
Red Flag for Jet Lag
In Study, Simulated Flights Result in Deaths of Older Mice
By Del Quentin Wilber
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 26, 2006; Page D01
It's the caged-mouse syndrome of air travel -- you feel crammed into your seat on a long-distance flight with little to munch on except a bag of pretzels.
But you better hope you beat jet lag better than a mouse.
A study at the University of Virginia released during the height of Thanksgiving and Christmas travel seasons showed that a majority of elderly mice died while being subjected to the equivalent of a Washington-to-Paris flight once a week for eight weeks. More intense forms of jet lag sped up the death rate in the elderly rodents, the study found.
For decades, flyers have stoically battled the modern-age problem of jet lag, viewing its accompanying grogginess, burning eyes, headaches, insomnia and fatigue as more of a nuisance than a potential health issue.
The study has focused new attention on the problem and raised questions about whether severe jet lag can be harmful to health. It also has drawn attention to work by other researchers looking into ways to help vacationing families and business travelers avoid jet lag. The study is one of the first hard scientific looks into the health effects of jet lag, experts said.
The condition has become such a common scourge of the jet age that an entire industry has emerged on the Internet, offering such solutions as acupressure kits, homeopathic pills and light-enhancing visors. Many travelers have invented their own treatments: slurping down gallons of coffee, dunking heads in ice-cold water, taking naps, jogging and popping sleeping pills and homeopathic remedies. But researchers say few of those remedies are backed by science.
In the study, younger mice seemed to rebound more quickly and were not immediately harmed by the jet lag. Simulated jet lag conditions were created by advancing and delaying the rodent's exposure to light.
Researchers aren't sure what conclusions to draw from the results.
Gene Block, the report's co-author, said older mice might be more susceptible to sudden light changes than younger mice. Or, he said, jet lag might be a health problem that builds up in younger subjects, causing future maladies.
To further explore the issue, his researchers have launched another set of tests to determine whether jet lag causes long-term health consequences in younger and middle-age rodents, Block said minutes before boarding a 14-hour flight to Japan from Washington.
"I feel like a subject in the experiment," said the 58-year-old, who recently returned from a conference in Italy. "Like many people, I am finding it more difficult to cope with jet lag as I get older. . . . I would like to know whether it's a phenomenon of old age or whether it is something I really have to worry about."
Block's study also hinted at what flyers have been saying for years: It is more difficult to adjust to time zone changes when flying east. The researchers found that 53 percent of elderly mice died when they were subjected to a simulated weekly flight from Washington to Paris over the eight-week study. The death rate dropped to 32 percent of elderly mice on a simulated Paris-to-Washington route, according to the study, which was published last month in the journal Current Biology. Seventeen percent of the mice in a control group died in the eight-week study.
Research has identified links between night-shift work and chronic health problems. And doctors and aviation experts have worked hard to help pilots and flight attendants mitigate the effects of jet lag to ensure they can function properly in the air.
Jet lag is caused when people fly across time zones. Many factors, including daylight, sleep cycles, hormones and other natural rhythms, play a role in how humans' complicated internal clocks handle it.
Researchers say the only way to truly avoid jet lag is for travelers to gradually prepare before leaving on their trips.
Charmane I. Eastman, a professor and director of the Biological Rhythms Research Lab at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago, believes that flyers can more easily cope with jet lag by adjusting their sleep schedules before traveling.
If headed east from the Washington area, for example, travelers should go to bed an hour earlier each night and wake up an hour earlier each morning for several days before leaving town.
When travelers wake up, they should get sunlight or use a "light box" to help trigger changes in their biological clocks. Travelers should also consider taking small amounts of melatonin, a hormone, five hours before going to sleep to help them adjust to their future time zone, Eastman said.
The only other way to avoid jet lag on overseas trips: "Take a boat," she said.
There are also ways to mitigate jet lag once you land. If heading to Europe from Washington, most people should wear dark sunglasses after landing until about 11 a.m. Exposure to too much light too early can delay adjustment to new time zones, Eastman said.
After 11 a.m., travelers should try to get as much sunlight as possible to help kick-start the body's clock, she said.
Several veteran travelers said they would have a difficult time switching schedules under Eastman's plan and said booking a cruise was an inefficient option.
They have found their own ways to cope.
Steve Solomon, 30, a consultant who lives in Gaithersburg, sets his watch to his destination's time zone before he takes off "to get your mind into the right mind-set." He also avoids alcohol and drinks a lot of water.
"I view it as more of a hassle than anything else," he said. "You have to run with the punches."
Carol Lane, a 42-year-old free-lance advertising and marketing writer, says she relies on homeopathic pills she buys at a health food store.
Even with the pills, though, she said she hadn't been able to adjust to jet lag as well as she did a few years ago.
"When you are in a particularly bad bout, you are just so walloped," she said. "I'm an old mouse, I guess."
In Study, Simulated Flights Result in Deaths of Older Mice
By Del Quentin Wilber
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 26, 2006; Page D01
It's the caged-mouse syndrome of air travel -- you feel crammed into your seat on a long-distance flight with little to munch on except a bag of pretzels.
But you better hope you beat jet lag better than a mouse.
A study at the University of Virginia released during the height of Thanksgiving and Christmas travel seasons showed that a majority of elderly mice died while being subjected to the equivalent of a Washington-to-Paris flight once a week for eight weeks. More intense forms of jet lag sped up the death rate in the elderly rodents, the study found.
For decades, flyers have stoically battled the modern-age problem of jet lag, viewing its accompanying grogginess, burning eyes, headaches, insomnia and fatigue as more of a nuisance than a potential health issue.
The study has focused new attention on the problem and raised questions about whether severe jet lag can be harmful to health. It also has drawn attention to work by other researchers looking into ways to help vacationing families and business travelers avoid jet lag. The study is one of the first hard scientific looks into the health effects of jet lag, experts said.
The condition has become such a common scourge of the jet age that an entire industry has emerged on the Internet, offering such solutions as acupressure kits, homeopathic pills and light-enhancing visors. Many travelers have invented their own treatments: slurping down gallons of coffee, dunking heads in ice-cold water, taking naps, jogging and popping sleeping pills and homeopathic remedies. But researchers say few of those remedies are backed by science.
In the study, younger mice seemed to rebound more quickly and were not immediately harmed by the jet lag. Simulated jet lag conditions were created by advancing and delaying the rodent's exposure to light.
Researchers aren't sure what conclusions to draw from the results.
Gene Block, the report's co-author, said older mice might be more susceptible to sudden light changes than younger mice. Or, he said, jet lag might be a health problem that builds up in younger subjects, causing future maladies.
To further explore the issue, his researchers have launched another set of tests to determine whether jet lag causes long-term health consequences in younger and middle-age rodents, Block said minutes before boarding a 14-hour flight to Japan from Washington.
"I feel like a subject in the experiment," said the 58-year-old, who recently returned from a conference in Italy. "Like many people, I am finding it more difficult to cope with jet lag as I get older. . . . I would like to know whether it's a phenomenon of old age or whether it is something I really have to worry about."
Block's study also hinted at what flyers have been saying for years: It is more difficult to adjust to time zone changes when flying east. The researchers found that 53 percent of elderly mice died when they were subjected to a simulated weekly flight from Washington to Paris over the eight-week study. The death rate dropped to 32 percent of elderly mice on a simulated Paris-to-Washington route, according to the study, which was published last month in the journal Current Biology. Seventeen percent of the mice in a control group died in the eight-week study.
Research has identified links between night-shift work and chronic health problems. And doctors and aviation experts have worked hard to help pilots and flight attendants mitigate the effects of jet lag to ensure they can function properly in the air.
Jet lag is caused when people fly across time zones. Many factors, including daylight, sleep cycles, hormones and other natural rhythms, play a role in how humans' complicated internal clocks handle it.
Researchers say the only way to truly avoid jet lag is for travelers to gradually prepare before leaving on their trips.
Charmane I. Eastman, a professor and director of the Biological Rhythms Research Lab at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago, believes that flyers can more easily cope with jet lag by adjusting their sleep schedules before traveling.
If headed east from the Washington area, for example, travelers should go to bed an hour earlier each night and wake up an hour earlier each morning for several days before leaving town.
When travelers wake up, they should get sunlight or use a "light box" to help trigger changes in their biological clocks. Travelers should also consider taking small amounts of melatonin, a hormone, five hours before going to sleep to help them adjust to their future time zone, Eastman said.
The only other way to avoid jet lag on overseas trips: "Take a boat," she said.
There are also ways to mitigate jet lag once you land. If heading to Europe from Washington, most people should wear dark sunglasses after landing until about 11 a.m. Exposure to too much light too early can delay adjustment to new time zones, Eastman said.
After 11 a.m., travelers should try to get as much sunlight as possible to help kick-start the body's clock, she said.
Several veteran travelers said they would have a difficult time switching schedules under Eastman's plan and said booking a cruise was an inefficient option.
They have found their own ways to cope.
Steve Solomon, 30, a consultant who lives in Gaithersburg, sets his watch to his destination's time zone before he takes off "to get your mind into the right mind-set." He also avoids alcohol and drinks a lot of water.
"I view it as more of a hassle than anything else," he said. "You have to run with the punches."
Carol Lane, a 42-year-old free-lance advertising and marketing writer, says she relies on homeopathic pills she buys at a health food store.
Even with the pills, though, she said she hadn't been able to adjust to jet lag as well as she did a few years ago.
"When you are in a particularly bad bout, you are just so walloped," she said. "I'm an old mouse, I guess."
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Can Long Haul pilots make it to retirement
I read an interesting post from Mary about low cost carrier pilots making it to retirement. Many good posts including people remarking on their work hours and rosters.
I captain a B777 for a large carrier based in Dubai and, like many of my colleagues, block near 900 hours per 12 month period. If I could have a regular wake up time over a reasonable period it would make a great improvement to my quality of health. I am rostered for trips in succession which pay no regard to sleep patterns.
I am severely jet lagged with no proper time to recover. Some people can rest well in the bunk and I can occassionally do so, but if you're not successful then you suffer. It is stressful showing up for work tired, but sitting in the seat, watching the sun rise with a low workload perpetuates the tiredness. Activity can energize you (I have flown commuter, shorthaul, medium and now long haul so I can compare) but sitting in the seat for hours on end is itself tiring.
Interestingly, I and some of my colleagues are applying (some have left already) to short haul-low cost carriers.
By the way, I have flown Boeing and Airbus - a new joiner I met left a secure, well paid Captain position on a B737 because he didn't want to fly that type for the rest of his career. The difference between a B737NG and a B777, a little higher of the ground, takes more to taxi, FMS has differences but like most things in life you get over it.
I captain a B777 for a large carrier based in Dubai and, like many of my colleagues, block near 900 hours per 12 month period. If I could have a regular wake up time over a reasonable period it would make a great improvement to my quality of health. I am rostered for trips in succession which pay no regard to sleep patterns.
I am severely jet lagged with no proper time to recover. Some people can rest well in the bunk and I can occassionally do so, but if you're not successful then you suffer. It is stressful showing up for work tired, but sitting in the seat, watching the sun rise with a low workload perpetuates the tiredness. Activity can energize you (I have flown commuter, shorthaul, medium and now long haul so I can compare) but sitting in the seat for hours on end is itself tiring.
Interestingly, I and some of my colleagues are applying (some have left already) to short haul-low cost carriers.
By the way, I have flown Boeing and Airbus - a new joiner I met left a secure, well paid Captain position on a B737 because he didn't want to fly that type for the rest of his career. The difference between a B737NG and a B777, a little higher of the ground, takes more to taxi, FMS has differences but like most things in life you get over it.
Last edited by sonoma; 16th Jan 2007 at 14:58. Reason: i mentioned emirates airlines, i think this is inappropriate of me
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Has the question become: "Can any airline pilot make it to retirement?"
What has changed that has people complaining about boredom and fatigue now when they didn't say 30 years ago?
Mary.
What has changed that has people complaining about boredom and fatigue now when they didn't say 30 years ago?
Mary.
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Sonoma,
Like you I have recently come from the short-haul world of nights in bed, early starts (Yuk!) and multi-sector days (knackered!). I traded this for the fatigue, boredom, and sheer exhileration?? that long-haul flying claims to offer.
I'm not sure if this has a negative or positive effect on my health. Dispite spending longer at higher (more cosmic radiation) levels, and longer periods awake, I still don't know if this is a "healthier" way of life, if compared to "rushing" around with your "A$$ on fire". I suspect not.
That said, my average blood pressure reading is much lower than it has been on SH.
Good luck sir.
Like you I have recently come from the short-haul world of nights in bed, early starts (Yuk!) and multi-sector days (knackered!). I traded this for the fatigue, boredom, and sheer exhileration?? that long-haul flying claims to offer.
I'm not sure if this has a negative or positive effect on my health. Dispite spending longer at higher (more cosmic radiation) levels, and longer periods awake, I still don't know if this is a "healthier" way of life, if compared to "rushing" around with your "A$$ on fire". I suspect not.
That said, my average blood pressure reading is much lower than it has been on SH.
Good luck sir.
I went the other way, from Long Haul to short haul.
At first on long haul, I was flying mostly ultra long haul with rosters of three flights a month with good periods off in between. Also with three or four pilots, rest periods during flight eased the fatigue. This lifestyle was managebale. I then went onto shorter patterns flying to five or six East Coast USA destinationd from London each month. This was horrid. A trip and a rest period took about 5 days. On each 5 day pattern I lost one night's sleep as the USA departure was invariably at midnight body clock time. Doing that six times a month was completely knackering.
After that, I changed to long haul freight. This involved patterns of up to 12 days with a minimum of 6 days off. Generally freight doesn't care about OTP and the lifestyle is very disrupted with frequent roster changes which make it very hard to manage your rest. When I was driving to work still feelin tired after 6 days off, I knew I had to stop.
So when I had a chance to swap to short haul, I took it. Now, I fly more hours a year - but it feels like less. I have acure fatigue to contend with as I did with long haul. But the big difference is that it there is no underlying chronic fatigue. As a result of stopping long haul I feel 5 years younger and a lot healthier. I've only had two days off sick in two years, whereas on long haul I was ill all the time - I had a cold which lasted three months!
I often see my mates from the freighter for a beer or two and I'm shocked how bad they look. I must have looked like that but I just didn't realise. And my wife thinks I'm easier to live with! As I got older, I found my circadian rythems got stronger which is why I think I found long haul harder to cope with. But one thing I'm certain of, I never wan't to go back to long haul!
At first on long haul, I was flying mostly ultra long haul with rosters of three flights a month with good periods off in between. Also with three or four pilots, rest periods during flight eased the fatigue. This lifestyle was managebale. I then went onto shorter patterns flying to five or six East Coast USA destinationd from London each month. This was horrid. A trip and a rest period took about 5 days. On each 5 day pattern I lost one night's sleep as the USA departure was invariably at midnight body clock time. Doing that six times a month was completely knackering.
After that, I changed to long haul freight. This involved patterns of up to 12 days with a minimum of 6 days off. Generally freight doesn't care about OTP and the lifestyle is very disrupted with frequent roster changes which make it very hard to manage your rest. When I was driving to work still feelin tired after 6 days off, I knew I had to stop.
So when I had a chance to swap to short haul, I took it. Now, I fly more hours a year - but it feels like less. I have acure fatigue to contend with as I did with long haul. But the big difference is that it there is no underlying chronic fatigue. As a result of stopping long haul I feel 5 years younger and a lot healthier. I've only had two days off sick in two years, whereas on long haul I was ill all the time - I had a cold which lasted three months!
I often see my mates from the freighter for a beer or two and I'm shocked how bad they look. I must have looked like that but I just didn't realise. And my wife thinks I'm easier to live with! As I got older, I found my circadian rythems got stronger which is why I think I found long haul harder to cope with. But one thing I'm certain of, I never wan't to go back to long haul!
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I now do ultra long haul only, and its great - Always 5+ hours bunk time available in which I can nearly always get a few hours sleep, potter around and have a meal; Sleep when I'm tired downroute and a goodly block of time off when I get home. I think regularly forcing yourself to go out down-town when feeling a bit knackered on arrival can greatly increase the general tiredness though.
Short haul is too much like hard work in comparison, although with only one landing a month, I do miss the hands on flying.
Short haul is too much like hard work in comparison, although with only one landing a month, I do miss the hands on flying.
Warning Toxic!
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Joe I agree with you. A hard shorthaul roster is worse for me than a longhaul one. When I flew concentrated SH, I hated it, seemed to be working long hours every day, and my BP went up horribly. Going back to LH was like a breath of fresh air. Instead off flying taking over 80% of my life, it took 60%. Now I'm doing a mix and enjoying it. But I think a pilot is either a natural SH or LH type and it depends on the individual.
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Downroute I Met A Virgin Long Haul Pilot. He Told Me That They Are Contracted To Fly Maximum Of 750 Hours Per Year. As I Mentioned Earlier, Most Of My Colleagues Are Flying Close To 900 Hours A Year. Check Out Some Of The Contracts Available For Long Hual Captains And You'll See The Expectation Of A Near 900 Hour Flying 12 Month Period With Few Days Off At Home. The Impression I'm Left With Is That The Days Of More Reasonable Schedules Are Fading Away. The Companies Want To Maximize Their Utility Of Labor And In This Competitive Environment They Cannot Be Sympathetic To Our Life Expectancy Or Need For Rest. Lip Service Is Paid To Rest Requirements But Crew Hotels Are Changed For Price Now And Not Because Crew Couldn't Get A Quiet Room (this Is A Regular Practice Downroute At My Company). Schedules Are Most Definitely Not Created With Rest In Mind - I Can Attest To That This Month. If You Fly With Bunks All The Time And The Bunks Are Of Good Quality Then You May Be Able To Establish A Good Work/rest Pattern. Keep In Mind That Not All Airlines Get Bunks (you May Find Yourself In An Uncomfortable Seat) Or The Bunks They Get Are Price Related And Not To Optimize Crew Rest Or Access To The Flight Deck (my Company's Bunks Are Situated Where The Pilots Are The Furthest Away From The Cockpit And Shared With The Cabin Crew - Doesn't Happen For Those Of You Thinking It).
I Workout On Days Off, Get As Much Sleep As Possible And I Am A 'healthy' Drinker - Consume Equal To Or Less Than Recommended Units - I Have Aged Way Beyond My Years Since Starting Long Haul (with Some Short Haul Mixed In). The First Few Years Were Ok But In The Last Few The Accumulation Of Fatigue And Jetlag Is Kicking My Behind. Hard Work Never Killed Anyone But Jetlag Will. B777 Captain, Middle East Airline, Flown Commuter Through Long Haul During My Career.
I Workout On Days Off, Get As Much Sleep As Possible And I Am A 'healthy' Drinker - Consume Equal To Or Less Than Recommended Units - I Have Aged Way Beyond My Years Since Starting Long Haul (with Some Short Haul Mixed In). The First Few Years Were Ok But In The Last Few The Accumulation Of Fatigue And Jetlag Is Kicking My Behind. Hard Work Never Killed Anyone But Jetlag Will. B777 Captain, Middle East Airline, Flown Commuter Through Long Haul During My Career.
