Iberia Mayday
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Touchy, touchy!
'Reptiles' are generally taken to be 'gentlemen of the press,' I thought. I didn't mean to get down on people who like to use unlicensed scanners just to listen in on ATC chatter; I have no particular feelings about that at all, although it does seem like a waste of time and an unwarranted intrusion. Should I perhaps sit outside your kitchen window to listen in on your telephone calls, say? And then tell everyone what sort of odd comments were made, to boot?
If you think that comment was rude then you obviously haven't been exposed to my rudeness but I shall apologise for it anyway, seeing as it it the Holiday season and all. Happy now?
As to the others, the reptiles, I remember once when we had to declare an emergency after a bit of finger trouble, basically. We sorted ourselves out there and continued the operation safely. But by the time we got back to base the phone was ringing with invitations to unburden ourselves to some reptile who had obviously been listening in on the Tower frequency.
I believe that if you look into this at all you shall find that there is a legal requirement to preserve the privacy of ATC radio traffic.
If you think that comment was rude then you obviously haven't been exposed to my rudeness but I shall apologise for it anyway, seeing as it it the Holiday season and all. Happy now?
As to the others, the reptiles, I remember once when we had to declare an emergency after a bit of finger trouble, basically. We sorted ourselves out there and continued the operation safely. But by the time we got back to base the phone was ringing with invitations to unburden ourselves to some reptile who had obviously been listening in on the Tower frequency.
I believe that if you look into this at all you shall find that there is a legal requirement to preserve the privacy of ATC radio traffic.
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hi guys, at the bigining of this thread i apollogie as an iberia pilot, for abusing of spanish on the radio, an d i keep on doing it,
anyway after a tcas resolution wath we are supoused to do, its act promtly, no mater wath other pilots say or the controller, remenber accident over switherland, so the languige in that situation its not that important,
spanish controller are instructed to talk to us in english every time our essential trafic its not spanish, this hapen a lot, close to the airport, joining runways, TO clearance, app. etc... and more. We olso are intructed to use english in situationds like rejected TO, engine failure and request vector to get back to the field,... i´m one of those that think that its better the use of just one language at least in dens air trafict areas like tma, but still legal the use of other language in france and spain as an icao official lenguage.
I complitly agree that in an stressing situation its easy to use your native languge,
other factor its tha flag airlines are comonly crewed with native pilots, so the use of native lenguage in the cockpit its normal, new low cost airline are very international so use of english its almost compusory, any way if you give me the exact day of this incident hapen i can make a few questions to satisfy your curiosity , i will also ask in pilotsdeiberia.com that of course i´m a member, and of course its not a joke, its a very usefull lisbot, for profesional and non pro subjets, best regards
anyway after a tcas resolution wath we are supoused to do, its act promtly, no mater wath other pilots say or the controller, remenber accident over switherland, so the languige in that situation its not that important,
spanish controller are instructed to talk to us in english every time our essential trafic its not spanish, this hapen a lot, close to the airport, joining runways, TO clearance, app. etc... and more. We olso are intructed to use english in situationds like rejected TO, engine failure and request vector to get back to the field,... i´m one of those that think that its better the use of just one language at least in dens air trafict areas like tma, but still legal the use of other language in france and spain as an icao official lenguage.
I complitly agree that in an stressing situation its easy to use your native languge,
other factor its tha flag airlines are comonly crewed with native pilots, so the use of native lenguage in the cockpit its normal, new low cost airline are very international so use of english its almost compusory, any way if you give me the exact day of this incident hapen i can make a few questions to satisfy your curiosity , i will also ask in pilotsdeiberia.com that of course i´m a member, and of course its not a joke, its a very usefull lisbot, for profesional and non pro subjets, best regards
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Well done to blanza. Any increased understanding and knowledge of this sort of thing can only lead to improvements in safety.
I can only imagine how I'd perform if asked to cunduct my job in another language.
I can only imagine how I'd perform if asked to cunduct my job in another language.
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Chuks my rant was probably over the top anyway and I apologise for over reacting.
The problem of using info gleaned from listening to radios doesn't just apply to ATC they also listen to the Police (or used to before it was encrypted) Fire and Ambulance frequencies so that they can get to the scene of an incident quickly.
Then again a lot of the airfields in the States and some in Europe stream their radios and even their radar plots onto the internet , JFK for example.
The problem of using info gleaned from listening to radios doesn't just apply to ATC they also listen to the Police (or used to before it was encrypted) Fire and Ambulance frequencies so that they can get to the scene of an incident quickly.
Then again a lot of the airfields in the States and some in Europe stream their radios and even their radar plots onto the internet , JFK for example.
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As to the original post, no idea whatsoever and even if I knew I wouldn't tell!
There seems to be a growing number of people, probably inspired by the internet, who seem to find it perfectly normal to view any transmissions, including ATC ones, as some sort of entertainment, out there for their diversion. I'm not happy with that, not that it matters a great deal in the grand scheme of things. My discontent started with Beatles haircuts and has just gone on from that.
The press, ah! That great populist photographer of New York 'Weegee' (Alfred Selig) kept a police radio tuned in so that he could be one of the first on the scene to take pictures of auto accidents, gangland shootings and all the other things that made up life in New York City; that was his living as a free-lance photographer. Somehow I doubt that he had a licence for that radio but then he was a one-off. Now you can go to the local Radio Shack and buy stuff Weegee probably never dreamed of, since he had to work with a Speed Graphic and flash bulbs.
What we nowadays seem to think we have a right to know, since we are willing to pay good money to buy copies of the Sun and the News of the Screws, goes pretty deep into the private and the professional spheres. Lucky to be a nobody I don't worry about my privacy being invaded but professionally I would hope that whatever I have to say to ATC would remain between us insofar as possible. I certainly don't want some reptile listening in.
There seems to be a growing number of people, probably inspired by the internet, who seem to find it perfectly normal to view any transmissions, including ATC ones, as some sort of entertainment, out there for their diversion. I'm not happy with that, not that it matters a great deal in the grand scheme of things. My discontent started with Beatles haircuts and has just gone on from that.
The press, ah! That great populist photographer of New York 'Weegee' (Alfred Selig) kept a police radio tuned in so that he could be one of the first on the scene to take pictures of auto accidents, gangland shootings and all the other things that made up life in New York City; that was his living as a free-lance photographer. Somehow I doubt that he had a licence for that radio but then he was a one-off. Now you can go to the local Radio Shack and buy stuff Weegee probably never dreamed of, since he had to work with a Speed Graphic and flash bulbs.
What we nowadays seem to think we have a right to know, since we are willing to pay good money to buy copies of the Sun and the News of the Screws, goes pretty deep into the private and the professional spheres. Lucky to be a nobody I don't worry about my privacy being invaded but professionally I would hope that whatever I have to say to ATC would remain between us insofar as possible. I certainly don't want some reptile listening in.
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BLANZA - 13 Dec 12:45.
To respond to some of what has been said ...
On one hand it is understandable that Spanish was spoken...the majority of people on the ground and in the air received maximum information efficiently.
- Not so good if Iberia a/c had the problem in non Spanish airspace.
- Not good either because TCAS is not the only way of avoiding a collision...(some ATC people have been jumping on soap boxes a little too quickly here).
In airspace where the only other aircraft are 10 miles plus away and you have positively identified the conflict a/c we are mandated to avoid collision using rules of the air...head on both a/c turn right. Problem was Iberia turned left (so I just maintained heading).
TCAS is normally great...but an emergency is situational and if you have an a/c descending at 7,000 fpm and you are approaching your ceiling you may not be able to climb at the rate TCAS demands. Airmanship demanded one of us turned as there was a lot of clear blue sky outside the SNR funnel.
Gary Larger - I was not rubber necking but this aircraft did two things I did not expect it to do in less than 30 seconds...as my aircraft and its contents were put in jeopardy I have more than a casual interest in what was going on.
To respond to some of what has been said ...
On one hand it is understandable that Spanish was spoken...the majority of people on the ground and in the air received maximum information efficiently.
- Not so good if Iberia a/c had the problem in non Spanish airspace.
- Not good either because TCAS is not the only way of avoiding a collision...(some ATC people have been jumping on soap boxes a little too quickly here).
In airspace where the only other aircraft are 10 miles plus away and you have positively identified the conflict a/c we are mandated to avoid collision using rules of the air...head on both a/c turn right. Problem was Iberia turned left (so I just maintained heading).
TCAS is normally great...but an emergency is situational and if you have an a/c descending at 7,000 fpm and you are approaching your ceiling you may not be able to climb at the rate TCAS demands. Airmanship demanded one of us turned as there was a lot of clear blue sky outside the SNR funnel.
Gary Larger - I was not rubber necking but this aircraft did two things I did not expect it to do in less than 30 seconds...as my aircraft and its contents were put in jeopardy I have more than a casual interest in what was going on.
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Dear all:
Interesting issue this. For a start the english level of quite a lot spanish pilots is just enough to survive I agree 100%
As a spanish pilot however I want to say the following:
1.- English sholud be spoken on the ATC not only in Spain but France Italy Greece, Rusia, and the rest of the world. If you have been flying more than 100 miles out of the UK airspace you know what I mean,so you should be surprised for the behaviour of this pilot. Have you ever landed in CDG? or ORY? or FCO?Don´t put all the blame on the spaniards only beacuse half of england flies to the spanish beaches
2.- Since this particular pilot was in Spain it makes sense to respond to an Spanish ATC talking in Spanish in a mayday it helps to reduce your workload in that situation. However I have not doubt that in the UK airspace the spanish pilot would have sorted out the problem perfectly.
3.- It is very difficult for an English speakker to have the right perspective about other languages, considering that Uk people are the ones with the lowest level of knowledge of other languages in all the EU.
4.- I have been flying in the States quite a lot and the American aeronautical English is far far far from being the standard ICAO.
5.- Merry Christmas chaps
Interesting issue this. For a start the english level of quite a lot spanish pilots is just enough to survive I agree 100%
As a spanish pilot however I want to say the following:
1.- English sholud be spoken on the ATC not only in Spain but France Italy Greece, Rusia, and the rest of the world. If you have been flying more than 100 miles out of the UK airspace you know what I mean,so you should be surprised for the behaviour of this pilot. Have you ever landed in CDG? or ORY? or FCO?Don´t put all the blame on the spaniards only beacuse half of england flies to the spanish beaches
2.- Since this particular pilot was in Spain it makes sense to respond to an Spanish ATC talking in Spanish in a mayday it helps to reduce your workload in that situation. However I have not doubt that in the UK airspace the spanish pilot would have sorted out the problem perfectly.
3.- It is very difficult for an English speakker to have the right perspective about other languages, considering that Uk people are the ones with the lowest level of knowledge of other languages in all the EU.
4.- I have been flying in the States quite a lot and the American aeronautical English is far far far from being the standard ICAO.
5.- Merry Christmas chaps
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gracias toro for the help,
i´ll replay another day, today its time to be with our familys and dont want to look for acccident report, but when you have a trafic advisory, don´t think that the traffict you have in sight its the one that its giving you the advisory, can be another one you are not seeing, allready hapen, i think in LA, and leeds to an accident/incident. second, in the accident over switherlad, they probably were sill here, including the controller, if they have relay on the tcas,
anyway this was a disscusion of the use of different languages in the airspace, not of the use of the tcas, and i agree with the use of a common one for everybody, best one, english because its more extended. but i dont make the rules and regulation
marry cristmas and take care when you are in the air
i´ll replay another day, today its time to be with our familys and dont want to look for acccident report, but when you have a trafic advisory, don´t think that the traffict you have in sight its the one that its giving you the advisory, can be another one you are not seeing, allready hapen, i think in LA, and leeds to an accident/incident. second, in the accident over switherlad, they probably were sill here, including the controller, if they have relay on the tcas,
anyway this was a disscusion of the use of different languages in the airspace, not of the use of the tcas, and i agree with the use of a common one for everybody, best one, english because its more extended. but i dont make the rules and regulation
marry cristmas and take care when you are in the air
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For me, it is an extremely interesting hobby that gives me nothing but pride for the pilots and controllers operating throughout the UK. Indeed, I also own an ATC simulator called 'London Control' that further enhances the hobby.
This led me to starting the UK PPL course just over a year ago.
You shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.
Ray.
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Blanza - Fully up to speed with the benefits of TCAS.....and in busy airspace or IMC etc you should just follow what TCAS tells you.
Not every situation is the same however and as a commander you are paid to use judgement. Just like SOPs it makes sense to follow them most of the time but every once in a while you have to do something different.
You know SNR at FL 370 better than I....it is not London TMA...and as I indicated above...
We had already established (from TCAS) there was no other traffic within 10NMs
It was clear blue VMC (which allowed us to confirm the above). The facts are...
1 - Iberia was in an emergency descent and I suspect was not 100% focussed on what his TCAS was telling him.
2 - I was approaching my aircraft ceiling and did not have the climb performance to do what TCAS wanted me to do.
3 - If neither of us had taken (heading) avoiding action there was a very high risk of collision.
4 - If one of us changed heading there was a very low risk (nil in the first instance) of hitting another a/c.
The reason TCAS does not give heading changes is because in its current form it is not accurate in the lateral plane. When technology allows... TCAS will give climb and/or heading changes...until that time we must not slavisly rely on TCAS in 100% of the situations you encounter.
PS....prepared to be corrected here but I seem to remeber that the Russian aircraft (in your link above) did not have TCAS fitted.
Not every situation is the same however and as a commander you are paid to use judgement. Just like SOPs it makes sense to follow them most of the time but every once in a while you have to do something different.
You know SNR at FL 370 better than I....it is not London TMA...and as I indicated above...
We had already established (from TCAS) there was no other traffic within 10NMs
It was clear blue VMC (which allowed us to confirm the above). The facts are...
1 - Iberia was in an emergency descent and I suspect was not 100% focussed on what his TCAS was telling him.
2 - I was approaching my aircraft ceiling and did not have the climb performance to do what TCAS wanted me to do.
3 - If neither of us had taken (heading) avoiding action there was a very high risk of collision.
4 - If one of us changed heading there was a very low risk (nil in the first instance) of hitting another a/c.
The reason TCAS does not give heading changes is because in its current form it is not accurate in the lateral plane. When technology allows... TCAS will give climb and/or heading changes...until that time we must not slavisly rely on TCAS in 100% of the situations you encounter.
PS....prepared to be corrected here but I seem to remeber that the Russian aircraft (in your link above) did not have TCAS fitted.
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alosaurus: the Russian aircraft had TCAS but due to different ,old teching methodologies ,they did not followed it ( they were tought to follow the ATC no matter what)
Also,you should not change heading based on tcas info's ,as you said it's not precise in horizontal indication.
The maximum FL for you're plane it's not the max FL it can climb,for shorter period of time.So,to prevent a colission,I'd suggest following TCAS no matter what,even if you climb over Max FL ,for a few hundred feets.
Also,most tp's are certified at lower levels due to pax oxy masks number (ie. ATR with FL 250. But it can easily climb to 270 or above)
About the need for awareness I subscribe to it's importance,and use of english over radio is very important.
One should think,though, that it would be a lot easy for everyone to speak in it's own language,if possible,during high stress situations.After the initiall ,standard call in english,a sim well trained reflex.
Also,you should not change heading based on tcas info's ,as you said it's not precise in horizontal indication.
The maximum FL for you're plane it's not the max FL it can climb,for shorter period of time.So,to prevent a colission,I'd suggest following TCAS no matter what,even if you climb over Max FL ,for a few hundred feets.
Also,most tp's are certified at lower levels due to pax oxy masks number (ie. ATR with FL 250. But it can easily climb to 270 or above)
About the need for awareness I subscribe to it's importance,and use of english over radio is very important.
One should think,though, that it would be a lot easy for everyone to speak in it's own language,if possible,during high stress situations.After the initiall ,standard call in english,a sim well trained reflex.
Last edited by alexban; 25th Dec 2006 at 14:34.
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Alex-would not change heading PURELY on TCAS info....but as I said TCAS helped our situational awareness and we were able to identify ...by combining TCAS and eyeball information that ...
A - There was only one aircraft anywhere near us.
B - That aircraft was heading straight for us and was loomimg large.
C - That the sky left and right of the Iberia was visually confirmed to be clear.
My point two above was not that we could not climb (as we all know there is some margin of climb performance at the aircraft's max ceiling) what I said was that my aircraft "did not have the climb performance to do what TCAS wanted us to do"
I have been involved in flight testing of development aircraft including ramping at max ceiling. Whilst not on my flight some of the guys did have a double engine failure and it took a long time to get one going again. See also a fatal accident last year in similar circumstances (neither engine would restart for those poor guys).
No one should advocate initialising a climb (measured in thousands of feet per minute) at max altitude when a gentle change of heading by 20 degrees would solve the problem.
We are not robots and exprerience and / or common sense will tell you that we do not rigidly follow TCAS in 100% of the situations. SOME emergencies are situational and require airmanship/ judgement taking ALL facts into account.
A - There was only one aircraft anywhere near us.
B - That aircraft was heading straight for us and was loomimg large.
C - That the sky left and right of the Iberia was visually confirmed to be clear.
My point two above was not that we could not climb (as we all know there is some margin of climb performance at the aircraft's max ceiling) what I said was that my aircraft "did not have the climb performance to do what TCAS wanted us to do"
I have been involved in flight testing of development aircraft including ramping at max ceiling. Whilst not on my flight some of the guys did have a double engine failure and it took a long time to get one going again. See also a fatal accident last year in similar circumstances (neither engine would restart for those poor guys).
No one should advocate initialising a climb (measured in thousands of feet per minute) at max altitude when a gentle change of heading by 20 degrees would solve the problem.
We are not robots and exprerience and / or common sense will tell you that we do not rigidly follow TCAS in 100% of the situations. SOME emergencies are situational and require airmanship/ judgement taking ALL facts into account.
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My post was highlighting the fact that ATC Watcher had clearly not understood the post made by underread east who made no mention that he would not react to a RA based on what he heard on the R/T - which is dangerous... however he did not say that!
Hats off to blanza for coming into the lions den as someone who uses his native lingo on the R/T. Whilst perfectly legal the main issue I have is that is seriously degrades my SA. I am sure we all try to build a mental picture of where other aircraft are and if the other crew are using a language that you do not understand then this becomes difficult.
If I hear a aircraft close to me and above me making a emergency descent on the R/T then in anticipation of a possible RA, in those few moments I will consider putting the fasten belts on and possibly making a brief PA which could well include instructions for the cabin crew to stow the carts asap. If someone is descending at me in a emergency then TCAS logic will want me to descend as well and I will need to shove the nose down to get the VSI pointing into the green band so thereby I will be replicating a emergency descent so that I will deconflict. Imagine this when pax are standing in the aisle or when the cabin crew are serving hot drinks! As a precaution I would like to secure the cabin as best as I can in case of a RA - even if pax just returned to their seat would be a start! If crews do not use English then I simply don't have the situational awareness that I would have if they did.
Hats off to blanza for coming into the lions den as someone who uses his native lingo on the R/T. Whilst perfectly legal the main issue I have is that is seriously degrades my SA. I am sure we all try to build a mental picture of where other aircraft are and if the other crew are using a language that you do not understand then this becomes difficult.
If I hear a aircraft close to me and above me making a emergency descent on the R/T then in anticipation of a possible RA, in those few moments I will consider putting the fasten belts on and possibly making a brief PA which could well include instructions for the cabin crew to stow the carts asap. If someone is descending at me in a emergency then TCAS logic will want me to descend as well and I will need to shove the nose down to get the VSI pointing into the green band so thereby I will be replicating a emergency descent so that I will deconflict. Imagine this when pax are standing in the aisle or when the cabin crew are serving hot drinks! As a precaution I would like to secure the cabin as best as I can in case of a RA - even if pax just returned to their seat would be a start! If crews do not use English then I simply don't have the situational awareness that I would have if they did.
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Talk about thread drift !!!
Alosaurus asks a perfectly reasonable question and you lot descend into a slanging match about the Spaniards and their aviation English ability or lack off it.
Bloody pathetic hijack of this thread and still no answer.
You lot that have nothing to contribute to the question should just plain and simple shut up and confine your contributions to just reading and NOT writing !!
Alosaurus asks a perfectly reasonable question and you lot descend into a slanging match about the Spaniards and their aviation English ability or lack off it.
Bloody pathetic hijack of this thread and still no answer.
You lot that have nothing to contribute to the question should just plain and simple shut up and confine your contributions to just reading and NOT writing !!
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I think if anyone had heard anything... they would have posted it by now and answered his question. Especially considering it occurred nearly 2 weeks ago!
Anyway I thought it was more of a discussion rather than anything else!!
Anyway I thought it was more of a discussion rather than anything else!!
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Faheel,
While I may agree with you about the subject hijack, our colleages have raised a valid point.
The widespread use of Spanish over the (now very busy) Spanish airspace is no small issue. Some of us feel it is bordering on the very dangerous. In fact it was even mentioned on one of the latest editions of Flywise.
Take MAD or BCN for instance; a ridiculously complex airspace, heavy traffic (MAD is now ahead of JFK in terms of pax and airplanes), questionable ATC, simultaneous use of two languages and poor English, that sure should raise some flags.
I just hope time proves me wrong.
Regards to all and season's greetings.
While I may agree with you about the subject hijack, our colleages have raised a valid point.
The widespread use of Spanish over the (now very busy) Spanish airspace is no small issue. Some of us feel it is bordering on the very dangerous. In fact it was even mentioned on one of the latest editions of Flywise.
Take MAD or BCN for instance; a ridiculously complex airspace, heavy traffic (MAD is now ahead of JFK in terms of pax and airplanes), questionable ATC, simultaneous use of two languages and poor English, that sure should raise some flags.
I just hope time proves me wrong.
Regards to all and season's greetings.
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TE RANGI:
Companies like Spanair, Vueling and Clickair have now on the SOP's the use of english with the spanish ATC. I can not agree with you about the english ability of the controllers. Don't go over the top. If you are scared about the spanish ATC you have not been flying outside the "civilized" world mate!!!
It surprises me however that you focus on the Spanish Air space, because regarding my previous post have you ever been to CDG or ORY or FCO? you only hear italian or french. Or if you fly worldwide that it's everyday life. We are pilots and we should adapt to the circunstances, go and tell a turkmenistan controller for example to speak proper english. He should do his best(and he does for sure) and we should do our best to understand him to adapt to that particular situation and leave our arrogant attitude behind.
Companies like Spanair, Vueling and Clickair have now on the SOP's the use of english with the spanish ATC. I can not agree with you about the english ability of the controllers. Don't go over the top. If you are scared about the spanish ATC you have not been flying outside the "civilized" world mate!!!
It surprises me however that you focus on the Spanish Air space, because regarding my previous post have you ever been to CDG or ORY or FCO? you only hear italian or french. Or if you fly worldwide that it's everyday life. We are pilots and we should adapt to the circunstances, go and tell a turkmenistan controller for example to speak proper english. He should do his best(and he does for sure) and we should do our best to understand him to adapt to that particular situation and leave our arrogant attitude behind.
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Toro01,
Thanks for your reply and apologies if mine sounded arrogant to you.
Yes, I've flown to ORY, CDG, FCO, CIA etc. And i've flown otside the what you call "civilized" airspace (Turkmenistan included), and am fully aware of the dangers of the use of two different languages simultaneously and of poor ATC.
Re the quality of Spanish ATC, I think there's little doubt it would rank at the very bottom in Western Europe, but that would be a different thread altogether. I would be more than happy to debate that with you (privately or publicly) any time. Should we start another thread about it?
Season's greetings.
Thanks for your reply and apologies if mine sounded arrogant to you.
Yes, I've flown to ORY, CDG, FCO, CIA etc. And i've flown otside the what you call "civilized" airspace (Turkmenistan included), and am fully aware of the dangers of the use of two different languages simultaneously and of poor ATC.
Re the quality of Spanish ATC, I think there's little doubt it would rank at the very bottom in Western Europe, but that would be a different thread altogether. I would be more than happy to debate that with you (privately or publicly) any time. Should we start another thread about it?
Season's greetings.
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Now, now. The position of worst ATC in Western Europe is a highly contested one. How about Greece or Italy? on the other hand Portugal is pretty good so we have to rule out the warm weather...
Another thread perhaps. See you in Jetblast then
Another thread perhaps. See you in Jetblast then
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yes .... but
You mean you would not react to an RA based on what you hear on the R/T ?
Very, very dangerous my friend.
And which rules are you talking about ? According ICAO , In Spain the legal languages in R/T are both Spanish and English , so they are following " internationally agreed rules " as far as I know . Not nice perhaps , but legal.
Very, very dangerous my friend.
And which rules are you talking about ? According ICAO , In Spain the legal languages in R/T are both Spanish and English , so they are following " internationally agreed rules " as far as I know . Not nice perhaps , but legal.
And pls remember Paris-Orly, French language incident on grd.
