Crew incapacitation (Ryanair)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have to confess that I haven't read all the posts in this thread so very sorry if this has already been said.
I was the approach controller concerned with this incident and although it really isn't any of our business, it was the decision of ATC and the emergency services including the BAA obviously, that he stopped on the runway. The main reason for this was that it gave the emergency services much more room to approach the aircraft and deal with the problem.
The pilot, as I'm sure other people have siad, did a fantastic job.
I was the approach controller concerned with this incident and although it really isn't any of our business, it was the decision of ATC and the emergency services including the BAA obviously, that he stopped on the runway. The main reason for this was that it gave the emergency services much more room to approach the aircraft and deal with the problem.
The pilot, as I'm sure other people have siad, did a fantastic job.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carmoisine
Correct - I don't work for ryanair. The rest of your previous post doesn't apply to me. We didn't agree, fair enough, I'll resist the urge to respond to your sarcasm.
This thread, and particularly the handling of the situation by the F/O, interests me because it is an occurence that I think all low hour F/Os must have in the back of their minds. This guy clearly got it right, and with good support from ATC looks like he made all the right choices. So if it happens to me I'll stop on whichever runway I elect to land on and go down the pub.
Happy Carmoisine?
Correct - I don't work for ryanair. The rest of your previous post doesn't apply to me. We didn't agree, fair enough, I'll resist the urge to respond to your sarcasm.
This thread, and particularly the handling of the situation by the F/O, interests me because it is an occurence that I think all low hour F/Os must have in the back of their minds. This guy clearly got it right, and with good support from ATC looks like he made all the right choices. So if it happens to me I'll stop on whichever runway I elect to land on and go down the pub.
Happy Carmoisine?
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's worth remembering for anyone *still* thinking he should have pressed on is that Eirjet managed to land on the wrong field heading to LDY - with two fit crew.
I call you back
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alpha quadrant
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The debate here seems to centre on whether the FO was right or wrong. It is rarely as simple as that.
It has been mentioned that the FO was quite inexperienced and it has also been suggested that the flight was 15 minutes from Derry. I'm not familiar with LDY but I know enough to know that the FO made a sensible decision not continuing to destination. That is not to say he would have been wrong to continue just that not to do so was a much better decision.
If he was over Blackpool or the Irish Sea arguing for a return all the way to Stn seems odd given the proximity of Dub, Man and Lpl not to mention Bhx, all of which are much closer with decent runways. However we dont know how inexperienced this FO was and he may not have been familiar with any of these fields. Also we don't know the actual condition of the skipper. If I was dying I would want my FO to get me to a hospital as quick as possible but if time wasn't critical I would be happy with a rookie taking their time and diverting to somewhere they were comfortable.
The bottom line is that the flight landed safely and all ended well. For that the FO deserves great praise.
It doesn't make his actions right however but merely appropriate given his experience. If an experienced FO did that and didn't dive into Man or somewhere close I'd lynch him.
It has been mentioned that the FO was quite inexperienced and it has also been suggested that the flight was 15 minutes from Derry. I'm not familiar with LDY but I know enough to know that the FO made a sensible decision not continuing to destination. That is not to say he would have been wrong to continue just that not to do so was a much better decision.
If he was over Blackpool or the Irish Sea arguing for a return all the way to Stn seems odd given the proximity of Dub, Man and Lpl not to mention Bhx, all of which are much closer with decent runways. However we dont know how inexperienced this FO was and he may not have been familiar with any of these fields. Also we don't know the actual condition of the skipper. If I was dying I would want my FO to get me to a hospital as quick as possible but if time wasn't critical I would be happy with a rookie taking their time and diverting to somewhere they were comfortable.
The bottom line is that the flight landed safely and all ended well. For that the FO deserves great praise.
It doesn't make his actions right however but merely appropriate given his experience. If an experienced FO did that and didn't dive into Man or somewhere close I'd lynch him.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Faire d'income - Appropriate is 'right' and inappropriate is 'wrong'. This is one of those few cases where the ends justifies the means and in this case the result clearly does make the FO's actions right. I am always amazed at intensely critical nature of pilot against pilot. It is usually influenced by some sort of feigned incredulity that some pilot was just not as smart as they would be. I got involved in aviation 25 years ago and have in and around it ever since in some form or other. In that time I have observed the post-incident phenomenon that pervades whenever something unusual happens.
Basically a team of 'the great and the good' is assembled to assess the pilot's actions. Over a period of some weeks, a general sense of what should have happened, given the particular circumstances, appears. If it is particularly tricky or contraversial, sim rides are arranged for some of the most experienced trainers in the business to reflect upon the different options that could or should have been taken. After much horse-trading to cater for the different professional views of the many experts ranging from manufacturers, airline managers and senior trainers, a consesus appears which is often used to hang the original pilot. Many of 'thems and such as thems' who have participated in the hanging process reassure themselves that if only they had been there it would all have been so different. I have noted another interesting phenomena whereby 'what goes around comes around'. People who are excessively critical and show no mercy are often those who most need it for some subsequent transgression they make themselves. When their big day comes, they in turn do not find that mercy forthcoming.
I personally don't care if this FO turns out to have 100 or 10,000 hours on the 737. He made the right call in that the aircraft got down safely and without injury to anyone - that is good enough for me. Instead of people bleating over whether he should have made it to Manchester or wherever, we should rejoice that a safe and sensible decision was made at a moment when any number of stupid and ill-considered options could have been.
Basically a team of 'the great and the good' is assembled to assess the pilot's actions. Over a period of some weeks, a general sense of what should have happened, given the particular circumstances, appears. If it is particularly tricky or contraversial, sim rides are arranged for some of the most experienced trainers in the business to reflect upon the different options that could or should have been taken. After much horse-trading to cater for the different professional views of the many experts ranging from manufacturers, airline managers and senior trainers, a consesus appears which is often used to hang the original pilot. Many of 'thems and such as thems' who have participated in the hanging process reassure themselves that if only they had been there it would all have been so different. I have noted another interesting phenomena whereby 'what goes around comes around'. People who are excessively critical and show no mercy are often those who most need it for some subsequent transgression they make themselves. When their big day comes, they in turn do not find that mercy forthcoming.
I personally don't care if this FO turns out to have 100 or 10,000 hours on the 737. He made the right call in that the aircraft got down safely and without injury to anyone - that is good enough for me. Instead of people bleating over whether he should have made it to Manchester or wherever, we should rejoice that a safe and sensible decision was made at a moment when any number of stupid and ill-considered options could have been.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ask the tower !
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bacardi Walla , You can read my posting history to see where I stand in relation to FR, I'm not one of the pro muppets or a supporter. But what you wrote is just so idiotic, it is quite clear to anyone who knows, that you are spoofer. Are you seriously trying to suggest that the company would want an emergency handled to suit their commercial schedule? Honestly, I don't know why people who have absolutely no knowledge of what they are talking about feel the need to butt in with only a half witted grudge against Ryanair. Cop on, the lot of you!
Also, in my opinion, the F/O's decision to RTB was right as many others have mentioned. I'm merely saying what RYR have been known to do in the past. How about a bird strike and no ASR filed ??
Time for this thread to move on, close even.
ex-Tanker
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Luton Beds UK
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cor Blimey!
Here you all sit at your nice quiet computers discussing what a young man in an emergency could / should have done...
There he was in a once in a life time situation without the benefit of all the time you have and wanting to:
Get the ship down safely in a one man ops situation,
Ditto the passengers,
Get the Captain to where medical assistance is available.
Now a passenger reports that Derry was 15 minutes away and suddenly you are all over the FO. How the passenger knew that I don't know. In any case there is a procedure to be followed in these cases, which is practised in the sim. As someone above pointed out, it takes time to complete this and to make sure that the ship is under control and everything has been thought of in advance.
Therefore it makes complete sense to me to turn back to Stanstead while performing this procedure and planning the approach. To continue on to Derry would have been rash and probably would not have saved time anyway since the one man ops still had to be prepared.
Whether to stop on the runway or turn clear and then stop is a very small point. This is also discussed in sim sessions and was probably carried out as trained. What you certainly would not do is to change seats and taxy it right in. It is just as easy to have a car meet the ship where it is.
Long and the short of it is that the FO did his job, did it well and can now read on PPRuNe all the things he did wrong, as written by unknowledgeable critics.
Find someone your own size!
FC.
There he was in a once in a life time situation without the benefit of all the time you have and wanting to:
Get the ship down safely in a one man ops situation,
Ditto the passengers,
Get the Captain to where medical assistance is available.
Now a passenger reports that Derry was 15 minutes away and suddenly you are all over the FO. How the passenger knew that I don't know. In any case there is a procedure to be followed in these cases, which is practised in the sim. As someone above pointed out, it takes time to complete this and to make sure that the ship is under control and everything has been thought of in advance.
Therefore it makes complete sense to me to turn back to Stanstead while performing this procedure and planning the approach. To continue on to Derry would have been rash and probably would not have saved time anyway since the one man ops still had to be prepared.
Whether to stop on the runway or turn clear and then stop is a very small point. This is also discussed in sim sessions and was probably carried out as trained. What you certainly would not do is to change seats and taxy it right in. It is just as easy to have a car meet the ship where it is.
Long and the short of it is that the FO did his job, did it well and can now read on PPRuNe all the things he did wrong, as written by unknowledgeable critics.
Find someone your own size!
FC.
Left Seat 747
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Malaysia
Age: 80
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sheesh - what a long thread over second guessing
Carmoisine summed it up best in his first post and I agree. The FO did a fine job, landed at a good, close, familiar airport, stopped on the runway as instructed by ATC (thanks for that input by the approach controller) and everybody was safe and sound.
End of story.
End of story.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: limbo
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BitMoreRightRudder I'm sorry about the sarcasim, genuinely. I just get exasperated by some of the absolute ****e that appears on these threads, from people who are not usually even aircrew never mind FR employees. I know I shouldn't bight but I do. I just think how angry I would be if I had been the F/O reading this thread. It seems to be happening more and more on PPRuNe and its really taking away from the value of it. I think its a shame that Dannys proposal for a forum only for people with validated credentials never materialized.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats fair enough Carmoisine and I agree with everything you say there. I certainly wasn't questioning the F/O and I hope my post didn't come across like that, just interested in the chain of events and what sort of assistance he received from ATC. Like I said my opinion has changed - set the brake on the runway and let someone else worry about the rest!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have to confess that I haven't read all the posts in this thread so very sorry if this has already been said.
I was the approach controller concerned with this incident and although it really isn't any of our business, it was the decision of ATC and the emergency services including the BAA obviously, that he stopped on the runway. The main reason for this was that it gave the emergency services much more room to approach the aircraft and deal with the problem.
The pilot, as I'm sure other people have siad, did a fantastic job.
I was the approach controller concerned with this incident and although it really isn't any of our business, it was the decision of ATC and the emergency services including the BAA obviously, that he stopped on the runway. The main reason for this was that it gave the emergency services much more room to approach the aircraft and deal with the problem.
The pilot, as I'm sure other people have siad, did a fantastic job.
This thread speaks volumes about the level of faith or lack thereof which experienced professional pilots have in low time FO's. Returning to base was a no brainer in this situation and if a professional first officer can't navigate a couple of hundred miles home and then land without incident then he/she shouldn't be in the cockpit in the first place.
IMHO 200 hour CPL's in the RHS of high capacity RPT jets seriously compromises safety. Here's a novel idea, how about all airline transport pilots be required to hold an airline transport pilot license...
IMHO 200 hour CPL's in the RHS of high capacity RPT jets seriously compromises safety. Here's a novel idea, how about all airline transport pilots be required to hold an airline transport pilot license...
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Stansted
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread speaks volumes about the level of faith or lack thereof which experienced professional pilots have in low time FO's. Returning to base was a no brainer in this situation and if a professional first officer can't navigate a couple of hundred miles home and then land without incident then he/she shouldn't be in the cockpit in the first place.
IMHO 200 hour CPL's in the RHS of high capacity RPT jets seriously compromises safety. Here's a novel idea, how about all airline transport pilots be required to hold an airline transport pilot license...
IMHO 200 hour CPL's in the RHS of high capacity RPT jets seriously compromises safety. Here's a novel idea, how about all airline transport pilots be required to hold an airline transport pilot license...
You can't unfreeze an ATPL until you've flown 1500 hours in a multicrew environment, therefore if you insisted on a full ATPL before occupying the RHS we'd be very short of pilots as there would be no way for people to unfreeze them.
SW
But the FO did navigate a couple of hundred miles and land without incident. Don't understand what you are getting at.
You can't unfreeze an ATPL until you've flown 1500 hours in a multicrew environment, therefore if you insisted on a full ATPL before occupying the RHS we'd be very short of pilots as there would be no way for people to unfreeze them.
Tell you what though i wouldnt want to be on board with a 200 hour fo and an incapacitated skipper.
I had my figures wrong. It's 1500hrs total time of which 500hrs must be a multicrew aircraft. So my comment still stands. You can't unfreeze your ATPL unless someone lets you into the right hand seat.
You're contradicting yourself, as in one sentence you say
whilst in the next breath you say
I think you should have a little more faith in the system. The FO has been trained to fly the aircraft and will have no problem landing it without incident. If there was any doubting the FO's capabilities then the FO would not have been released to fly the line without a safety pilot in the jump seat.
SW
You're contradicting yourself, as in one sentence you say
Just seems to be a lot of back slapping going on for something that should be well within the capabilities of a professional pilot.
Tell you what though i wouldn’t want to be on board with a 200 hour fo and an incapacitated skipper.
SW
Last edited by Sky Wave; 13th Oct 2006 at 14:16. Reason: With Correct info from LASORS
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know what, in 15 years time when I have thousands of hours and a command I really hope I don't forget where and how I started out in this industry. I think a lot of people do.
Lets turn the argument around then desmotronic, which situation is more problematic in a two crew environment - a cockpit with an appropriate experience gradient from captain to F/O or two captains sat next to each other?
Lets turn the argument around then desmotronic, which situation is more problematic in a two crew environment - a cockpit with an appropriate experience gradient from captain to F/O or two captains sat next to each other?
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: BRS
Age: 46
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry if that's a silly question, but I was 6 years old last time I sat in a cockpit, so I don't know these things!
Steve.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A FO would not be trained to do that Steve. An FO is only trained in one seat which is the right hand seat. Differant for a CAPT though as he/she will be trained on both the left and right hand seat.
The tiller(stearing wheel on ground) is only on the left hand side. So the FO is not trained to use it at all, so the FO is doing something that he/she is not trained to complete. Which is not what you would want in such a situation.
Also you wouldn't be getting up and moving seat in midflight as nobody would have control of the aircraft and the same on the ground.
The tiller(stearing wheel on ground) is only on the left hand side. So the FO is not trained to use it at all, so the FO is doing something that he/she is not trained to complete. Which is not what you would want in such a situation.
Also you wouldn't be getting up and moving seat in midflight as nobody would have control of the aircraft and the same on the ground.