Britain's Pilots Call For Seven New Security Steps
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Join Date: Jun 2001
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I like the proposals too. I agree totally with those who say non-pilots don't get it.
**Controversial opinion alert**
There should be no need for pilot security screening at the airport at all
We pilots, are, like it or not, in charge of security on the flight.
I have my leatherman taken off me - no worries, there is equipment on the flight deck (in which I am locked and can deny access to all others) with which I can do more damage to a person than with a pocket knife.
9/11 proved that the access to the flight deck is the holy grail.
To the poster who queried why pilots should be treated differently: guess what: We are the only employment group (apologies to f/e's) who are allowed in the flight deck in flight
It gets very exasperating here on PPRuNe sometimes.
**Controversial opinion alert**
There should be no need for pilot security screening at the airport at all
We pilots, are, like it or not, in charge of security on the flight.
I have my leatherman taken off me - no worries, there is equipment on the flight deck (in which I am locked and can deny access to all others) with which I can do more damage to a person than with a pocket knife.
9/11 proved that the access to the flight deck is the holy grail.
To the poster who queried why pilots should be treated differently: guess what: We are the only employment group (apologies to f/e's) who are allowed in the flight deck in flight
It gets very exasperating here on PPRuNe sometimes.
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Since there are now many more security staff than pilots, statistically there is a far greater risk that a breach of security is going to be from within the security staff themselves. None of whom have the track record in this industry than I, or many of us, do! What on earth gives these people the right to question me and others in my profession? Most of these people have been recently dragged in off the street to swell the numbers of security personnel in a panic attempt by politicians to convince us they are doing something about the terrorist problem. What makes them better than I? I would like to know.
I have serious doubts about the inteligence of some of these people and the people in charge of them who have acted in such an appalling way toward properly trained and employed aircrew, pilots particularly. As it has been said time and again, we don't need a bomb in our shoes to down the aircraft. If these people, calling themselves security, are so dim that they can't see that, then frankly we have the wrong people doing their job. What we need is some intelligence shown, then maybe we can believe that it won't be so easy to outsmart the terrorist!
"We're only following orders" was the comment I got the other day.
"That's what they all said at Nurnberg" I said.
"Are you calling us a bunch of Nazis?"
"Sometimes you have to question what you are being told to do, otherwise if the cap fits... and all that!!"
I have serious doubts about the inteligence of some of these people and the people in charge of them who have acted in such an appalling way toward properly trained and employed aircrew, pilots particularly. As it has been said time and again, we don't need a bomb in our shoes to down the aircraft. If these people, calling themselves security, are so dim that they can't see that, then frankly we have the wrong people doing their job. What we need is some intelligence shown, then maybe we can believe that it won't be so easy to outsmart the terrorist!
"We're only following orders" was the comment I got the other day.
"That's what they all said at Nurnberg" I said.
"Are you calling us a bunch of Nazis?"
"Sometimes you have to question what you are being told to do, otherwise if the cap fits... and all that!!"
Join Date: Dec 2005
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The fastest way to get things changed is to join the muscicians union. They can now bring thir instruments on board. Quite right too, it wouldnt be a proper disaster without a violinist playing as the plane plummets earthward after the captain has detonated his toothpaste and chutney bomb, using the on board torch as an igniton source and the axe to open the chutney. The autopsy may also show severe lacerations from a pair of tweezers as the copilot coerced the captain in to this dreadful act. Cut to a sky news anchor transplanted to the wreckage site to run the news show from there....." AT the top of the hour well look at how this could have happened, and ask...Why didnt he just crash it ?"......."Now heres Francis with the weather."
Meanwhile back on planet earth.ie the rest of europe, leatherman wielding pilots of all (spanish)nationalities read the paper while hitching aride on a spanish carrier jumpseat to the UK with a shipment of deodrant,toothpaste, shaving foam and optrex...AKA..the DREADED NIGHTSTOP KIT. Were doomed ,doomed I tell ye.
Meanwhile back on planet earth.ie the rest of europe, leatherman wielding pilots of all (spanish)nationalities read the paper while hitching aride on a spanish carrier jumpseat to the UK with a shipment of deodrant,toothpaste, shaving foam and optrex...AKA..the DREADED NIGHTSTOP KIT. Were doomed ,doomed I tell ye.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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If I want to commit mass murder, I don't need anything apart from my hands. If I did decide to do it, I wouldn't use disguised toothpaste or anything like that. I'd wait until the Captain went to the loo, lock the door and turn off the fuel controls. That's it. If I wanted to crash into a big city, I could do that too. If I want a passenger to cause mass murder, I don't need to give them anything - use your imagination and you can think up numerous ways.
The airside area isn't "completely sterile" and never will be. A can of hydraulic fluid in the face will disable you to a similar extent to a knife, so what are we to do, remove everything that could be considered even potentially damaging? Naked passengers - all strip searched - background checked - segregated from one another - blindfolded and starved. That'd work.
The airside area isn't "completely sterile" and never will be. A can of hydraulic fluid in the face will disable you to a similar extent to a knife, so what are we to do, remove everything that could be considered even potentially damaging? Naked passengers - all strip searched - background checked - segregated from one another - blindfolded and starved. That'd work.
I'm not saying that there are terrorist pilots, I'm saying why take the risk that there might be........... Anyone in the industry can see the holes, but why take a risk ???
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I'm not saying that there are terrorist pilots, I'm saying why take the risk that there might be........... Anyone in the industry can see the holes, but why take a risk ???
Btw , are you ex cargo as in no longer actively flying, or have you moved to pax flying and go through this kafka like security hell every morning as a lot of us do? just out of interest.
ST
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I'm afraid that those of us who see this 'security' on a daily basis may beg to differ. There are glaring deficiencies in UK aviation security which are reported by BALPA members but not acted upon. Instead the authorities prefer to concentrate on cosmetic measures, ......:
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Hardly now the most accessible forum in which to discuss the draconian, and senseless, daily stupidity we are forced to endure.
Not a good time to 'close' a thread, Danny. Musicians unions have rightly won the battle to bring their valuable instruments on board. Yet still I can't carry my 'emergency' nightstop kit in my flight case.
This has gone on too long - it's time we took our own action.
Not a good time to 'close' a thread, Danny. Musicians unions have rightly won the battle to bring their valuable instruments on board. Yet still I can't carry my 'emergency' nightstop kit in my flight case.
This has gone on too long - it's time we took our own action.
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So when you come along to the security scanner you'll just say "hang on a minute while I get my ballistic gel fake fingerprint out" to go with your functional fake ID. Perhaps ornithopter should have said "I'd love to see you fake a fingerprint as part of a plausible, real world security scenario".
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The link simply shows how easy it is to fake a fingerprint scanner ....ornithopter seemed to feel that that was the answer ....its hardly foolproof if this type of thing can be foiled by a photocopy of a fingerprint ...is it?
Join Date: Jan 2003
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It doesn't matter if you are a security cleared, fingerprinted anything.
If you are afforded easy access airside, then it no longer becomes a sterile area for whoever may pick up what ever we can carry through.... Pilot or not
Everbody in the industry knows the holes and can see them. Why put a bigger one in there.
If you are afforded easy access airside, then it no longer becomes a sterile area for whoever may pick up what ever we can carry through.... Pilot or not
Everbody in the industry knows the holes and can see them. Why put a bigger one in there.
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USA DHS about turn
See new thread re the USA DMS, it specifically refers to pax, but I can only assume crew have the same rights as pax.
Is my lap top, a musical instrument.????
Silverspoon
Is my lap top, a musical instrument.????
Silverspoon
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Sterile, eh!
I read some opinions about a sterile airside, but let me give a example how easy is to corrupt that airside.
Imagine, a terrorist embarking on airplane due to Heathrow from a country where the security is a little bit more lax. He takes al the toothpaste he wants and the chutney and the Ipod detonator. Whe he arrives he leave all that on his seat. Then the cleaner comes and pick it up and then he can take that wherever he wants it, airside....
Check Six krueger....
Imagine, a terrorist embarking on airplane due to Heathrow from a country where the security is a little bit more lax. He takes al the toothpaste he wants and the chutney and the Ipod detonator. Whe he arrives he leave all that on his seat. Then the cleaner comes and pick it up and then he can take that wherever he wants it, airside....
Check Six krueger....
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Ex Cargo Clown - Airside isn't sterile. No addition or removal of toothpaste will change that. Why take the chance? Well there are so many possibilities with the current status quo, that the "chances" are huge of anything. Whether pilots take liquids and gels with them will not affect that. Why do you take the chance when you go up and down stairs? Why not build everything flat? The fact of the matter is more people kill themselves falling downstairs than from explosive toothpaste, so to be honest, why not take the risk?
Fingerprint detectors are not the answer, you need more than 1 identification. Also for instance, part of the suggested fingerprint ID might be to have the fingerprint detector driver visually check your finger tip.
The facts of the matter are that if we are trusted to sit in a flightdeck, sometimes on our own, we don't need any disguised nasties to commit terrible crimes. If you trust us not to damage the aircraft when we leave it, then we should be trusted not to take nasties to give to other people. The same is true of some other groups of staff too.
Fingerprint detectors are not the answer, you need more than 1 identification. Also for instance, part of the suggested fingerprint ID might be to have the fingerprint detector driver visually check your finger tip.
The facts of the matter are that if we are trusted to sit in a flightdeck, sometimes on our own, we don't need any disguised nasties to commit terrible crimes. If you trust us not to damage the aircraft when we leave it, then we should be trusted not to take nasties to give to other people. The same is true of some other groups of staff too.
aka Capt PPRuNe
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Comes back to proper profiling. Where profiling is done properly such as for El Al, the profiler is highly trained and can make a decision within a few seconds as to whether the person being profiled needs further attention and/or searches.
Unfortunately, here in the UK the DfT have gone down the route of blanket scanning. There is no way any of the minimum wage security screeners that are employed could profile anyone. Can you imagine the "Errrm... lipstick = OK. Ummm... lip salve not look like lipstick. Urrr... lip salve look like gel. Ummm... compute... compute... compute... No gel so no lip salve. Duh!".
The argument about a sterile airside is the biggest joke amongst aircrew and any staff that work at an airport. The investment in low cost security screeners and x-ray machines is a joke and designed purely for cosmetic purposes. Those who don't work at airports see big security queues and like lambs to the slaughter think 'must be working hard those security people and so we must be safe'.
Unfortunately, here in the UK the DfT have gone down the route of blanket scanning. There is no way any of the minimum wage security screeners that are employed could profile anyone. Can you imagine the "Errrm... lipstick = OK. Ummm... lip salve not look like lipstick. Urrr... lip salve look like gel. Ummm... compute... compute... compute... No gel so no lip salve. Duh!".
The argument about a sterile airside is the biggest joke amongst aircrew and any staff that work at an airport. The investment in low cost security screeners and x-ray machines is a joke and designed purely for cosmetic purposes. Those who don't work at airports see big security queues and like lambs to the slaughter think 'must be working hard those security people and so we must be safe'.
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I had security try and take my steel capped shoes off me at MAN as they could be used as "deadly" weapons
Just as well they didnt get my multi-tool/leatherman, and exploding deodorant
Just as well they didnt get my multi-tool/leatherman, and exploding deodorant
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So, according to Sky News, from November (note, not next month) we can carry liquid toiletries as long as they're in containers no bigger than 100mls.
Anyone know the specific gravity of Colgate 2 in 1 toothpast? It's only got 4.6oz/130g on the label but this new restriction only mentions capacity!
Seems pedantic, but entirely consistent with this fiasco so no real surprises.
Now, instead of clearly labelled brand names, we'll have to decant our mouthwash into un-named plastic 100ml containers. Can just hear them now at the crew security point "What is Listerine?" etc. I already have a very good reply!
A huge face-saving exercise for HMG but at least it makes life a little more bearable, albeit as daft as it ever was.
Anyone know the specific gravity of Colgate 2 in 1 toothpast? It's only got 4.6oz/130g on the label but this new restriction only mentions capacity!
Seems pedantic, but entirely consistent with this fiasco so no real surprises.
Now, instead of clearly labelled brand names, we'll have to decant our mouthwash into un-named plastic 100ml containers. Can just hear them now at the crew security point "What is Listerine?" etc. I already have a very good reply!
A huge face-saving exercise for HMG but at least it makes life a little more bearable, albeit as daft as it ever was.
