Capt Refuses To Fly 'unsafe' Onur Air A321!!!
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MD11Engineer suggests..." In this case I usually let the chief pilot deal with the ensuing delay, means I will not accept it as maintenance delay"
Perhaps you are the plonker who suggested that I should take a 757 to a snowy Moscow a few winters ago with no APU. I refused, even though it was acceptable in the MEL.
The reason? Deicing at Moscow is carried out after pushback and before engine start. The Ground Power and Air Start were only available on the stand. The idea that we should pushback with a full load of passengers with just the battery bus powered, de-ice and then pull back onto the stand for engine start was totally unacceptable. That would have taken about 25 minutes, would the battery have lasted that long?
It may be in the MEL but in the end of the day it's up to the Captain.
Perhaps you are the plonker who suggested that I should take a 757 to a snowy Moscow a few winters ago with no APU. I refused, even though it was acceptable in the MEL.
The reason? Deicing at Moscow is carried out after pushback and before engine start. The Ground Power and Air Start were only available on the stand. The idea that we should pushback with a full load of passengers with just the battery bus powered, de-ice and then pull back onto the stand for engine start was totally unacceptable. That would have taken about 25 minutes, would the battery have lasted that long?
It may be in the MEL but in the end of the day it's up to the Captain.
Still behind the curtain
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Onur Air
Sometimes we bash the press deservedly, and sometimes undeservedly. However, thanks to the rag that published this episode of the captain refusing to fly the aircraft in it its condition, we have at least gained information on which to comment on.
There are good aviation writers and then there are "cubs" or those who know nothing about an airplane. Still, we have to throw out the "I thought we were going to die!" explatives and look to see if the story has at least some meat in it instead of pure puff.
In this case, apparently there was some meat and that is why the original posting was legitimate and received some informed responses.
There are good aviation writers and then there are "cubs" or those who know nothing about an airplane. Still, we have to throw out the "I thought we were going to die!" explatives and look to see if the story has at least some meat in it instead of pure puff.
In this case, apparently there was some meat and that is why the original posting was legitimate and received some informed responses.
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From the article:
Now that's what I call resigning in style 
the captain, clad in a navy-blue blazer and cap, suddenly came out of the cockpit and stood in the gangway, announcing that he was going to resign.
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And what if the Engineer isn't happy with the aircraft? Surely your not saying a Captain would over rule an engineer if he thought the fault should be rectified?
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A story I have heard long time ago.
Pax: Why are we delayed?
Gate Agent : The Captain decided that the aircraft is unsafe and refusing to fly.
Pax: So we are waiting for an another plane ?
Gate Agent : No, No , we are waiting for an another Captain.
Pax: Why are we delayed?
Gate Agent : The Captain decided that the aircraft is unsafe and refusing to fly.
Pax: So we are waiting for an another plane ?
Gate Agent : No, No , we are waiting for an another Captain.
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Filler Dent,
I have only had one event in 20 odd years of commercial flying where I said I was happy to fly it and the engineer said he wasn't happy for me to fly it.
I was more than happy to step aside and except his advise, as it happens he was one of the best engineers I have ever come across.
Just a shame it doesn't happen very often !
I have only had one event in 20 odd years of commercial flying where I said I was happy to fly it and the engineer said he wasn't happy for me to fly it.
I was more than happy to step aside and except his advise, as it happens he was one of the best engineers I have ever come across.
Just a shame it doesn't happen very often !
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Personally I think also it’s an unusual occurrence as well. I’ve only found myself in that situation a few times also.
It’s worth pointing out however that some items in the MEL are ambiguous at best and need careful consideration.
The Technical consideration of the aircraft is up to the engineer though, in liaison with the operating crew we should collectively decide upon the correct course of action between us.
Your destination, duty hours, on route WX etc. are all factors to be to take into account.
Mostly I think this happens, certainly in Sussex anyway.
Management expect us to work to the maximum allowable limits of the MEL, fortunately it's very rare that in BA excessive pressure is applied to take a less than serviceable aircraft is it not?
It’s worth pointing out however that some items in the MEL are ambiguous at best and need careful consideration.
The Technical consideration of the aircraft is up to the engineer though, in liaison with the operating crew we should collectively decide upon the correct course of action between us.
Your destination, duty hours, on route WX etc. are all factors to be to take into account.
Mostly I think this happens, certainly in Sussex anyway.
Management expect us to work to the maximum allowable limits of the MEL, fortunately it's very rare that in BA excessive pressure is applied to take a less than serviceable aircraft is it not?
Last edited by Filler Dent; 17th Sep 2006 at 09:21. Reason: Easier on the eyes.
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Walked Off The Aircraft
None of you have commented on the lack of professionalism of commander who just walks off the aircraft.
Presumably after an aircraft crashes it is unservicable, so does the captain just walk off the aircraft?
By all means refuse to fly an unservicable aircraft but do continue in the role you are being paid for until the passengers have left or you are at the end of your duty hours.
It is shame that a lot of commanders do not really understand their complete responsibilty to the people who actually pay their wages!
Presumably after an aircraft crashes it is unservicable, so does the captain just walk off the aircraft?
By all means refuse to fly an unservicable aircraft but do continue in the role you are being paid for until the passengers have left or you are at the end of your duty hours.
It is shame that a lot of commanders do not really understand their complete responsibilty to the people who actually pay their wages!
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theresalwaysone
The thing is we don't know all the details. There is absolutley nothing wrong with the Captain saying to the first officer 'ok you have control, look after the pax, i am going to find a land line and sort this mess out', then leaving the aircraft. This does not mean he is derilict in his duties. That situation has certainly happened before.
The thing is we don't know all the details. There is absolutley nothing wrong with the Captain saying to the first officer 'ok you have control, look after the pax, i am going to find a land line and sort this mess out', then leaving the aircraft. This does not mean he is derilict in his duties. That situation has certainly happened before.
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first safety
I don?t know which one is better,
- leave a/c and just go home and let the poor pax to fly with an other captain in same plane
- let the pax know what is going on and than leave the a/c, give people a chance to make decision about their life,
Even you pay it with your job?
I think he did the great job before he leave the plane and it`s also shows how professional he is.
Regards?
- leave a/c and just go home and let the poor pax to fly with an other captain in same plane
- let the pax know what is going on and than leave the a/c, give people a chance to make decision about their life,
Even you pay it with your job?
I think he did the great job before he leave the plane and it`s also shows how professional he is.
Regards?
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Theresalwaysone,
You can be sure that ANY CAPTIAN who does what it sounds like this guy has had to do is thinking of his passengers and only of his passengers.
Staying on the A/C to point the passengers in the right direction is a nice touch but don't loose sight of the fact that he could have been much more unprofessional and just flew the A/C as apposed to putting his job on the line.
It's a shame that some passengers do not really understand the responsibilities the Captain has.
You can be sure that ANY CAPTIAN who does what it sounds like this guy has had to do is thinking of his passengers and only of his passengers.
Staying on the A/C to point the passengers in the right direction is a nice touch but don't loose sight of the fact that he could have been much more unprofessional and just flew the A/C as apposed to putting his job on the line.
It's a shame that some passengers do not really understand the responsibilities the Captain has.
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I Flew A Couple Of Years In Turkey. I Know The Mentality Of Most Companies And Their Pilots.
Safety Standarts Are Very Low And Most Ex Military Pilots Are Kamikaze Pilots So They Dont Refuse To Fly Even With Serious Tech Problems.
Lots Of Flights With Mel Items.
So Nobody Wants To Loose His Job.
The Authorities Must Act As Soon As Possible.
Safety Standarts Are Very Low And Most Ex Military Pilots Are Kamikaze Pilots So They Dont Refuse To Fly Even With Serious Tech Problems.
Lots Of Flights With Mel Items.
So Nobody Wants To Loose His Job.
The Authorities Must Act As Soon As Possible.
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md11 wrote"Just the opinion of a ground engineer.
I would really like to know what was at fault on this plane. I have occasionally had pilots who refused to accept an aircraft even though I raised a HIL in accordance with the MEL and all applicable procedures, so that from a maintenance point and operational point of view the plane was servicable and legal to fly, because the pilot's opinion did not agree with the approved proceedures. In this case I usually let the chief pilot deal with the ensuing delay, means I will not accept it as maintence delay."
reminds me too of a cold and icy morning in cdg. the a/c hard been parked overnight and was being prepared for an early morning departure. it was a B757 if i remember rightly. the mechanic came into my office and said the pack had overheated. so we wandered up to the flight deck to see what was going on. the mel was produced and with a smile the skipper let me know it was not allowable etops? i think. Anyway we opened the pack bay door thumped the ACM and the pack was screaming like a good' un.
up we went to sign the log and let him on his way, two good packs and no other problems. thats when it all fell apart, the skipper seemed to think we should have changed the pack valve or changed this or that. There was a young first officer that seemed to be egging him on as well, dont know why maybe because she was female? anyway I let the skipper know we would not being doing anymore work and I was happy the a/c was serviceable. that seemed like a red rag to a bull, he refused to fly the a/c, ok then i said and went back to my office.
I then get a phone call to say the service had been cancelled and can you shut the a/c up as it wont be going anywhere. no problem, funny thing was the next day I powered the thing up and the self same skipper flew it back. I would have loved to have known what the story was back at his main base.
I would really like to know what was at fault on this plane. I have occasionally had pilots who refused to accept an aircraft even though I raised a HIL in accordance with the MEL and all applicable procedures, so that from a maintenance point and operational point of view the plane was servicable and legal to fly, because the pilot's opinion did not agree with the approved proceedures. In this case I usually let the chief pilot deal with the ensuing delay, means I will not accept it as maintence delay."
reminds me too of a cold and icy morning in cdg. the a/c hard been parked overnight and was being prepared for an early morning departure. it was a B757 if i remember rightly. the mechanic came into my office and said the pack had overheated. so we wandered up to the flight deck to see what was going on. the mel was produced and with a smile the skipper let me know it was not allowable etops? i think. Anyway we opened the pack bay door thumped the ACM and the pack was screaming like a good' un.
up we went to sign the log and let him on his way, two good packs and no other problems. thats when it all fell apart, the skipper seemed to think we should have changed the pack valve or changed this or that. There was a young first officer that seemed to be egging him on as well, dont know why maybe because she was female? anyway I let the skipper know we would not being doing anymore work and I was happy the a/c was serviceable. that seemed like a red rag to a bull, he refused to fly the a/c, ok then i said and went back to my office.
I then get a phone call to say the service had been cancelled and can you shut the a/c up as it wont be going anywhere. no problem, funny thing was the next day I powered the thing up and the self same skipper flew it back. I would have loved to have known what the story was back at his main base.
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The captain may have done the right thing by resigning his position with the company, but leaving his passengers, and fellow crewmembers on board at the everone's mercy... not a good move by any means of a professional.
Nobody should be coerced into flying an unsafe aircraft, no matter the cost. But as captain, one of his prime objectives is the safety of his crew, passengers, cargo, and aircraft. A captain does not abandon either until his crew and passengers are safely off the jet.
The fundamental question... When did the captain deem the aircraft to be unsafe... before boarding, during boarding, or after boarding. Was it necessary to board passengers knowing that he was going to walk off the job. His dislike for the ariline must have been brewing before the flight in question.
At the end of the day, if he felt that strongly that the aircraft were unsafe to fly, the captain should have taken all means required to off load his crew and passengers... then make his farewell speech to the crowd in the lounge.
By all means, yes, he did the right thing by not taking an aircraft which he though was unsafe. But alsow remember when the captain walked off the jet, he abandoned his crew and passengers and left them behind with their thumbs up their arses.
Nobody should be coerced into flying an unsafe aircraft, no matter the cost. But as captain, one of his prime objectives is the safety of his crew, passengers, cargo, and aircraft. A captain does not abandon either until his crew and passengers are safely off the jet.
The fundamental question... When did the captain deem the aircraft to be unsafe... before boarding, during boarding, or after boarding. Was it necessary to board passengers knowing that he was going to walk off the job. His dislike for the ariline must have been brewing before the flight in question.
At the end of the day, if he felt that strongly that the aircraft were unsafe to fly, the captain should have taken all means required to off load his crew and passengers... then make his farewell speech to the crowd in the lounge.
By all means, yes, he did the right thing by not taking an aircraft which he though was unsafe. But alsow remember when the captain walked off the jet, he abandoned his crew and passengers and left them behind with their thumbs up their arses.
Last edited by captjns; 18th Sep 2006 at 08:51.
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The captain may have done the right thing by resigning his position with the company, but leaving his passengers, and fellow crewmembers on board at the everone's mercy... not a good move by any means of a professional.
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My post clearly stated that a captain should not fly an aircraft he deems to be unsafe regardless of the consequences. However, he should not walk off an aircraft and leave his fellow crewmembers and passengers on the aircraft. That's not captain material. IMO, I don't think his priorities were in the right order.
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Absolutely right !
Captjns,
I got your point and under normal circumstances I would probably agree with you - however one has to understand that this was the only way for the captain to make sure that no other Turkish captain would take this airplane with the defect only fixed on paper (their usual way of doing things).
I know īcause Iīve been there too for a summer and experienced similar situations where they just put you on another flight and a local captain will happily take the sick airplane without being fixed. (see another recent Onur thread)
This company is constantly putting economical interest over safety and itīs about time somebody draws a line. The ban in 05 didnīt help at all, after only a few weeks they fall back into old habbits.
So again: Well done captain
I got your point and under normal circumstances I would probably agree with you - however one has to understand that this was the only way for the captain to make sure that no other Turkish captain would take this airplane with the defect only fixed on paper (their usual way of doing things).
I know īcause Iīve been there too for a summer and experienced similar situations where they just put you on another flight and a local captain will happily take the sick airplane without being fixed. (see another recent Onur thread)
This company is constantly putting economical interest over safety and itīs about time somebody draws a line. The ban in 05 didnīt help at all, after only a few weeks they fall back into old habbits.
So again: Well done captain