O'Leary v Evan Cullen on RTE1
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What a plank..do the the maths numpty boy....
report (usually 90 mins before off chocks...thats just reality) mayby 0500z
6 sectors...4 x 60 mins, 2 x 45 mins....and dont forget the 25 min turnaround
5 x 25 mins
= 455 minutes or 7 hrs and 35 minutes of solid work, no breaks
report (usually 90 mins before off chocks...thats just reality) mayby 0500z
6 sectors...4 x 60 mins, 2 x 45 mins....and dont forget the 25 min turnaround
5 x 25 mins= 455 minutes or 7 hrs and 35 minutes of solid work, no breaks
4 x 60 + 2 x 45 = 330 flying time 455 + 90 = 545 mins
Now, watch closely : 545 / 330 = 1.65 (which you might notice is not 2.5) So an average of 18 hours flying is an average of 1.65 x 18 = 29.7 hours worked per week on average (or 1485 hours per year). This is well below the workload of almost any other job let alone one that can pay 6 figures.
It's just numbers dude - it's not that hard. If you feel the need to throw insults because you're frustated at not getting this then thats fine - but yoiu woukd be better served trying understand the basic maths.
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Ryanair Wannabe
Just for comparitive purposes. Not from a FR pilot but one who does similar work- UK/ Europe.
Typical 4 sector day 1.
4 sectors of 1h 50 mins 440 mins
1x 60 min c/in
3x 35 min t/rounds
1x 30 mins post flight 160 440+160=600 600/440= 1.36
Typical 4 sector day 2
4 (shorter) sectors of 1.15 300 mins
1x 60 min c/in
3x35 min t/rounds
1x 30 min post flight 160 mins 300+160=460 460/300= 1.53
Looks like you're not far away.
But to put it in context. If in a 5 day period, you were to fly say, 3 of these long days and 2 of the shorter ones.... ie 440x3 + 300x2 tot. 1920 mins or 32 HOURS airborne/ taxiing!!!!!! Which is by no means unusual. Actual duty would therefore be 2720 mins or 45.20 for your week and believe me you would be completely Donald Duck'd at the endo of it.
Also, don't forget, that's just the rostered block times. You could easily be late in fact you invariably would be on a few ocassions.
So you see the 18 hours bit ain't the whole story.
I'd still avoid Fr tho. They always seem to be getting airborne as I arrive for my earliest early or go home after my latest finishing late.
Just for comparitive purposes. Not from a FR pilot but one who does similar work- UK/ Europe.
Typical 4 sector day 1.
4 sectors of 1h 50 mins 440 mins
1x 60 min c/in
3x 35 min t/rounds
1x 30 mins post flight 160 440+160=600 600/440= 1.36
Typical 4 sector day 2
4 (shorter) sectors of 1.15 300 mins
1x 60 min c/in
3x35 min t/rounds
1x 30 min post flight 160 mins 300+160=460 460/300= 1.53
Looks like you're not far away.
But to put it in context. If in a 5 day period, you were to fly say, 3 of these long days and 2 of the shorter ones.... ie 440x3 + 300x2 tot. 1920 mins or 32 HOURS airborne/ taxiing!!!!!! Which is by no means unusual. Actual duty would therefore be 2720 mins or 45.20 for your week and believe me you would be completely Donald Duck'd at the endo of it.
Also, don't forget, that's just the rostered block times. You could easily be late in fact you invariably would be on a few ocassions.
So you see the 18 hours bit ain't the whole story.
I'd still avoid Fr tho. They always seem to be getting airborne as I arrive for my earliest early or go home after my latest finishing late.
Last edited by brain fade; 23rd Sep 2006 at 15:01.
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Example of a nice easy early shift at RYR
*16 Apr 06, Sun *3003 *CIA *04:35 Z *07:15 Z *STN
*16 Apr 06, Sun *3004 *STN *07:40 Z *10:05 Z *CIA
*16 Apr 06, Sun *9677 *CIA *10:35 Z *12:30 Z *VLC
*16 Apr 06, Sun *9678 *VLC *13:00 Z *14:55 Z *CIA
Here is my last rostered flying day with RYR before I left (I don't give a t**s if Ryanair can now work out who I am, I'll never work for them again until their senior management and company culture change dramatically).
CIA (Rome) is 2 hours ahead of GMT (Z) in the summer) so this was an 06:35L (local time in Rome) departure. It's a 4 sector day - Rome to London to Rome to Valencia to Rome with 25 min turnarounds in London and a generous 30 min turn time in Rome and Valencia - if you've been there, you'll know why.
Ryanair Rostering Dept consider I reported for this duty 45m before STD which is 05:50L (Local). In fact it was impossible to get everything printed and checked (flightplans, NOTAMS, weather, approach plates) within 45 mins so most of us would report at 05:30L at the latest for a day like this (mostly due to inadequate admin support). This means waking up at 04:30L to get up, breakfast, shower and drive to airport.
As you can see, the scheduled arrival time is 16:55 Local assuming no delays. Let's say the average delay was just half an hour (it was often considerably more) which would mean we landed at around 17:25 local. We had half an hour for post flight duties - means off duty at 17:55 local, just in time for a nice rush hour drive home feeling like death warmed up.
05:30 report to 17:55 off duty ready to drive home = on duty for 12:25 minutes! (Then do something similar 4 more days in a row). 18 hours a week according to MOL? I've just shown you 2/3 of that at work in one day.
The key point I'm trying to make here is that this would be an illegal duty for Easyjet, BA, Monarch or any other UK airline. (Max duty in the UK is 9 hours when you report before 6 local for 4 sectors).
By the IAA allowing RYR to roster days like I've just shown you, is dangerous to the point of criminal negligence in my opinion. It's also an unfair commercial advantage in a region (EU) where we're supposed to have level playing fields.
I am telling you that on a day like this, everyone I flew with (Captain and Cabin Crew), including me was so far beyond tired, we were clinging on by a thread just to carry a normal operation with a funcitoning aircraft. By the 4th sector I noticed we pilots would sometimes slur our words in response to checklists or forget clearances, drop off to sleep in the cruise, become a little irritable etc. All classic fatigue symptoms. There was hence very little spare capacity on board for dealing with emergencies - the safety margins were erroded to the point where I felt that just conducting the normal operation with functioning equipment was very close to the limit of what we could cope with.
I never understood why the company wanted to burn us and risk catastrophe on long days like this for 9 or 10 months and then have us sat idle for 2 or 3months because we hit the 900 hour annual limit. Is there some economy to this I'm missing or was it just piss poor HR and recruitment meaning they couldn't get enough of us - I'm curious to know if anyone has the answer.
Cheers - good luck and best wishes to all at Ryanair Crews and REPA - I laughed my pants off reading the judges findings in the last court case.
*16 Apr 06, Sun *3004 *STN *07:40 Z *10:05 Z *CIA
*16 Apr 06, Sun *9677 *CIA *10:35 Z *12:30 Z *VLC
*16 Apr 06, Sun *9678 *VLC *13:00 Z *14:55 Z *CIA
Here is my last rostered flying day with RYR before I left (I don't give a t**s if Ryanair can now work out who I am, I'll never work for them again until their senior management and company culture change dramatically).
CIA (Rome) is 2 hours ahead of GMT (Z) in the summer) so this was an 06:35L (local time in Rome) departure. It's a 4 sector day - Rome to London to Rome to Valencia to Rome with 25 min turnarounds in London and a generous 30 min turn time in Rome and Valencia - if you've been there, you'll know why.
Ryanair Rostering Dept consider I reported for this duty 45m before STD which is 05:50L (Local). In fact it was impossible to get everything printed and checked (flightplans, NOTAMS, weather, approach plates) within 45 mins so most of us would report at 05:30L at the latest for a day like this (mostly due to inadequate admin support). This means waking up at 04:30L to get up, breakfast, shower and drive to airport.
As you can see, the scheduled arrival time is 16:55 Local assuming no delays. Let's say the average delay was just half an hour (it was often considerably more) which would mean we landed at around 17:25 local. We had half an hour for post flight duties - means off duty at 17:55 local, just in time for a nice rush hour drive home feeling like death warmed up.
05:30 report to 17:55 off duty ready to drive home = on duty for 12:25 minutes! (Then do something similar 4 more days in a row). 18 hours a week according to MOL? I've just shown you 2/3 of that at work in one day.
The key point I'm trying to make here is that this would be an illegal duty for Easyjet, BA, Monarch or any other UK airline. (Max duty in the UK is 9 hours when you report before 6 local for 4 sectors).
By the IAA allowing RYR to roster days like I've just shown you, is dangerous to the point of criminal negligence in my opinion. It's also an unfair commercial advantage in a region (EU) where we're supposed to have level playing fields.
I am telling you that on a day like this, everyone I flew with (Captain and Cabin Crew), including me was so far beyond tired, we were clinging on by a thread just to carry a normal operation with a funcitoning aircraft. By the 4th sector I noticed we pilots would sometimes slur our words in response to checklists or forget clearances, drop off to sleep in the cruise, become a little irritable etc. All classic fatigue symptoms. There was hence very little spare capacity on board for dealing with emergencies - the safety margins were erroded to the point where I felt that just conducting the normal operation with functioning equipment was very close to the limit of what we could cope with.
I never understood why the company wanted to burn us and risk catastrophe on long days like this for 9 or 10 months and then have us sat idle for 2 or 3months because we hit the 900 hour annual limit. Is there some economy to this I'm missing or was it just piss poor HR and recruitment meaning they couldn't get enough of us - I'm curious to know if anyone has the answer.
Cheers - good luck and best wishes to all at Ryanair Crews and REPA - I laughed my pants off reading the judges findings in the last court case.
Last edited by buttline; 23rd Sep 2006 at 14:53.
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Fairly hostile/snide attitude to reality from ryanair wannabe.
I just supplied a guesstimate (based on my flying experience) of 45 hours duty for 18 hours flying and low and behold actual real figures suggest my margin of error is less than 10%.
Maybe 45 hours worries wannabe and that explains his reaction. It would worry me too if I had no breaks during my working day. Regardless of salary level, which should never be a consideration when you are in the act of performing your job professionally, breaks are very important in any job which requires a good deal of mental effort.
I just supplied a guesstimate (based on my flying experience) of 45 hours duty for 18 hours flying and low and behold actual real figures suggest my margin of error is less than 10%.
Maybe 45 hours worries wannabe and that explains his reaction. It would worry me too if I had no breaks during my working day. Regardless of salary level, which should never be a consideration when you are in the act of performing your job professionally, breaks are very important in any job which requires a good deal of mental effort.
I call you back
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Surely it is obvious that Ryanair Wannabe is no wannabe. He speaks only O'Leary propaganda.
"Low hours high pay...low hours high pay.....low hours high pay.......low hours high pay.....low hours high pay.....low hours high pay"
Drag his hairy ass around Europe for a month and he still would scream low hours high pay...
BTW the high pay claim is almost as false and the low hours.
"Low hours high pay...low hours high pay.....low hours high pay.......low hours high pay.....low hours high pay.....low hours high pay"
Drag his hairy ass around Europe for a month and he still would scream low hours high pay...
BTW the high pay claim is almost as false and the low hours.
Now, watch closely : 545 / 330 = 1.65 (which you might notice is not 2.5) So an average of 18 hours flying is an average of 1.65 x 18 = 29.7 hours worked per week on average (or 1485 hours per year). This is well below the workload of almost any other job let alone one that can pay 6 figures.
You've proved my point numpty boy
Quite simply Mr wannabe.....you have no concept of what you are on about....
But just to back up a step in this mathematical lesson. Your issue seems to be with the ratio of flying to duty period, or as you put it "This is well below the workload of almost any other job let alone one that can pay 6 figures"
Now given that most flightcrews dont actually earn over 6 figures...your comments are misguided, or perhaps more accurately, utterly deluded to begin with. Secondly you seem to be of the opinion that multi-sector high intensity shorthaul flying is somewhat "easy". Thirdly, as you havent operated in such an environment, you clearly don't accept that the facts presented to you constitute an accurate representation.
Putting all this into the big picture, it is perhaps unsurprising that you are talking out of your backside...mayby you could blame your upbringing
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Dont know what all u people are bitching and moaning about.What other airline in Ireland pays so much and u dont even have to do one overnight.Not Aer Lingus
Not Aer Arran
Not CityJet
Plus all the dosh we get.You guys just don't know how good you got it!!
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stay positive
Just reading the previous posts and i laugh at those and the iaa that do not accept the real issues in ryanair. I accept that when i joined i thought it was all great and had an open mind even with all the negative reports that you here on the website, and also within the media and of course within ryanair. This is just my experience, since day one, that i joined i have been aggressively spoken to by members of higher level including a member or two of management. I dont mind the long days or a bit of hard work, it gets difficult when you do not get the support, that one would expect from a big airline such as ryanair. We all have a moan or a bitch in the workplace about our employers in any profession we have. I believe we should all stick together and try and be more positive now and put our energy into making our job within ryanair a better one and one in which we can be happy. Let us all ignore the silly comments from others on this forum that say all is well and happy within ryanair, they are of the mind that they like causing trouble and I believe take this through there every day life and are not worth the hassle. These people should also look at the manner in which our ceo conducts himself within an interview. I was listening to the joe duffy radio show on rte one this week and people are realising the ways of this man. I have never met him so I do not want to say what or who the man really is, what I do know is that people are loosing patience and i mean the public. When you love your job you will do your best to help your employers, I will do my job professionally like my other fellow professionals including the cabin crew and all those who help ryanair to be one of the most profitable and safest airlines around. The way the airline is at todays state, i would not go out of my way to go beyond the call of duty. So guys, lets ignore ryanair wannabe and leo hairy camel an the others that say life is great within ryanair and stay positive and lets stick togther to get what we want and feel is fair before we all throw in the towel.
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Interesting MoL interview in the City section of yesterdays Evening Standard. Took place just before he was off to "visit the BAA offices to discuss the absurdity of the new security rules".
According to him, modern air travel is "crap", and "built on bullsh1t". Like for example the way pilots are called captains and wear gold braid. "An aeroplane is nothing more than a bus with wings on". Seemed to be pretty clear where he was coming from. So I take that as a green light for all RYR flight deck to turn up to work (late) in their civvies, run over a few cyclists when taxying, and keep to schedule by not stopping en route if no one down the back presses the bell.
According to him, modern air travel is "crap", and "built on bullsh1t". Like for example the way pilots are called captains and wear gold braid. "An aeroplane is nothing more than a bus with wings on". Seemed to be pretty clear where he was coming from. So I take that as a green light for all RYR flight deck to turn up to work (late) in their civvies, run over a few cyclists when taxying, and keep to schedule by not stopping en route if no one down the back presses the bell.
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Sorry if its already been mentioned but mol kept going on about how pilots are queuing up to join, why was it not brought to the viewers attention that the only reason for this is that it takes low hour pilots?
"An aeroplane "is a bus with wings on", "air travel is crap". If these statements are correctly reported, I wonder what investors would make of them? This sounds like the Ratner school of marketing.
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So why knowing what I know, would I entrust my life, that of my wife's and our unborn child to the tender mercies of of Ryanair? Two reasons: It was a lot cheaper than a more convenient Aer Lingus flight. (My fault should have booked earlier) and because I trust the pilots, particularly the Dublin based pilots, many of whom I know and have shared a cockpit or two and a beer or two over the years (not at the same time!!). Many of the Dublin pilots are the most experienced in the Ryanair fleet. I felt a lot safer in that aircraft than when I was driving the rental car down the A8 to the airport!
That is 'how come they haven't had a serious accident yet. The pilots dummy! Always the pilots, pros doing their job. Not management, not O'Leary not the IAA but the pilots. Long may it remain so.
It won't of course, I will quote myself from a previous post:
I just can't help feeling that one bad weather day a fatigued Captain or one that has already had a brush with his boss will make a decision based on his fear of losing his job or demotion and make just one more approach..................................
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Its not just the fatigued pilots you should be worried about, morale in atc is at an all time low and the staff are shown no appreciation for their work. They are also expected to work with controllers who everybody knows are not good enough but have got through the training school.....not so pleasant for those who have to watch them while doing their own job. Fatigued pilots and fed up controllers can only be a recipe for disaster......and the IAA will do nothing about it......until something happens and then, as always they will accuse instead of searching for reasons.
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Does anybody out there think that Aer Lingus etc are working less than us? There rapildly heading towards 900 hours a year and at least we at Ryan Air get home every night and we dont have to do the split duties City Jet do.
MOL is operating the airline legally within the rules laid down by the IAA.If you think theres something wrong with the rules have a go at the IAA and stop bitching and moaning about the job.
MOL is operating the airline legally within the rules laid down by the IAA.If you think theres something wrong with the rules have a go at the IAA and stop bitching and moaning about the job.
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The fact that you would write this tell me that you havent a clue what you are talking about - EI do nothing like 900 a year and never will.
More drivell which confirm above remarks. RYR do split shifts - they may not call them split shifts but they do them.
Does anybody out there think that Aer Lingus etc are working less than us? There rapildly heading towards 900 hours a year...
we dont have to do the split duties
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Pos-init, you are the one who does not have a clue what you are talking about. A significant number of 320 pilots in EI are up to either their 100 or 900 hour limit and have to be taken off their rostered flights. How do I know this? I am one of them!!