O'Leary v Evan Cullen on RTE1
Mr. O'Leary Won this One..
With the greatest of respect, Mr. O' Leary obviously understands the way the media works and gave a virtuouso performance, no matter how unpleasant it may appear to you.
May I point out that you need training to use the media and get your message across? A good PR firm could help. The Australian Trade Unions run courses for their staff on how to deal with the media and get their message across - its a skill that can be taught, and unions can do a brilliant marketing job if they work on it. Just ask any Australian pilot what "MUA, here to Stay" refers to.
The Public's attention span is very short. They are bombarded with advertisements all day and the ten second sound bite is all that sticks, hence Mr. O'Leary's repetitive "100,000 for 18 hours work" mantra. The public have no interest in the details of your rostering systems at all, and probably wouldn't understand its implications if they did. All that sticks is the sound bite. Professionals can help you develop your own.
Without wishing to open old wounds, the portrayal of professional pilots as overpaid prima donnas has been used with devastating effect before, noteably during the Australian pilots strike. I suggest you need to find professional help in building and delivering your story, including the sound bites. This is especially important because you cannot go too far without seeming to be alarmist and threatening your livelihoods.
Good luck!
P.S. If you hope to get public support for your cause, for a start, stop your colleagues from referring to passengers as "self loading freight".
May I point out that you need training to use the media and get your message across? A good PR firm could help. The Australian Trade Unions run courses for their staff on how to deal with the media and get their message across - its a skill that can be taught, and unions can do a brilliant marketing job if they work on it. Just ask any Australian pilot what "MUA, here to Stay" refers to.
The Public's attention span is very short. They are bombarded with advertisements all day and the ten second sound bite is all that sticks, hence Mr. O'Leary's repetitive "100,000 for 18 hours work" mantra. The public have no interest in the details of your rostering systems at all, and probably wouldn't understand its implications if they did. All that sticks is the sound bite. Professionals can help you develop your own.
Without wishing to open old wounds, the portrayal of professional pilots as overpaid prima donnas has been used with devastating effect before, noteably during the Australian pilots strike. I suggest you need to find professional help in building and delivering your story, including the sound bites. This is especially important because you cannot go too far without seeming to be alarmist and threatening your livelihoods.
Good luck!
P.S. If you hope to get public support for your cause, for a start, stop your colleagues from referring to passengers as "self loading freight".
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Would still like to get some opinions on this one...is Aer Lingus unsafe as well because its Pilots operate 900 hours per year on the A320 the same number as Ryanair Pilots do on the 737?....or are Aer Lingus duties spread out differently to Ryanair making them less tiring on the crews?
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is Aer Lingus unsafe as well because its Pilots operate 900 hours per year on the A320 the same number as Ryanair Pilots do on the 737
or are Aer Lingus duties spread out differently to Ryanair making them less tiring on the crews?
But the above misses the point. This is not about Aer Lingus v Ryanair. It is about fatigue in Irish airlines and the IAA's inaction. Pilots in both airlines are complaining consistently but the is no word from the civil servants. The reason Ryanair made Prime Time and not AL was because of the bullying culture alleged by Cullen which prevents pilots reporting fatigue. Aer Lingus is much better in this regard.
Ialpa are not out to stop passengers from flying with FR. That would go against the interests of it's new members. Joe public was not the target audience so Mr. O'Leary's repeated lies were irrelevant. The IAA don't need to be told that pilots work more than 18 hours a week.
The IAA should note that Mr O'Leary doesn't consider time outside chocks off/chocks on as work. He has a legal obligation to cultivate a safety culture in his organisation and he doesn't consider checking flight plans, weather, aircraft defects, notams, route manuals, aircraft exterior, aircraft performance, airfield info, ATC clearances, cockpit security, cockpit checks, cockpit setup, liasing with cabin crew/ground crew and introductory PAs as work. ( I'm sure there are more ) That should set off alarm bells to all concerned. A real regulator would pull his AOC until he demonstrated his seriousness about instilling a proper safety culture.
But the IAA is a business not a regulator.
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Evan didn't make the best of the opportunity but in fairness, he was not given much time to speak!
Of Mols assertion that American pilots can work 1000 hours a year (10% more than FR).....the point Evan should have made is this:
Ryanair pilots achieve their 900 hours in 11 months and in many cases close to 10 months. It is not unknown for pilots to run up against the 100 hour wall within 21 days on a monthly basis. That is a working rate equivalent to nearly 1200 hours per year which is 20% more fatiguing than the American system and 30% more fatiguing than the European 'Regulators' intended!
Of Mols assertion that American pilots can work 1000 hours a year (10% more than FR).....the point Evan should have made is this:
Ryanair pilots achieve their 900 hours in 11 months and in many cases close to 10 months. It is not unknown for pilots to run up against the 100 hour wall within 21 days on a monthly basis. That is a working rate equivalent to nearly 1200 hours per year which is 20% more fatiguing than the American system and 30% more fatiguing than the European 'Regulators' intended!
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Well done Finman, a very valid point amidst all the froth. Leo hairy camel,heres the deal, if you promise not to post anymore of your arrant nonsense, I promise not to read it if you do.
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First, my credentials:
Simple PPL with an interest in aviation, reasonably regular SLF who uses flag carriers and low cost airlines.
Second, I showed this to my wife who has no interest in aviation. She knows nothing of the behind the scenes anguish that MOL causes his employees. I asked her to watch it and tell me what she thought, I considered her to be impartial.
Her thoughts:
MOL was a nasty little man and she would not want to work for someone like that if he was to pay her 200K for a 10 hour week. She thought the Union man showed restraint and rose above the nastiness aimed at him.
She also thought that MOL acted like a child who has been caught with his hand in the biscuit jar and yet still denies he did it.
Just observations by an impartial viewer.
Simple PPL with an interest in aviation, reasonably regular SLF who uses flag carriers and low cost airlines.
Second, I showed this to my wife who has no interest in aviation. She knows nothing of the behind the scenes anguish that MOL causes his employees. I asked her to watch it and tell me what she thought, I considered her to be impartial.
Her thoughts:
MOL was a nasty little man and she would not want to work for someone like that if he was to pay her 200K for a 10 hour week. She thought the Union man showed restraint and rose above the nastiness aimed at him.
She also thought that MOL acted like a child who has been caught with his hand in the biscuit jar and yet still denies he did it.
Just observations by an impartial viewer.
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With the greatest of respect, Mr. O' Leary obviously understands the way the media works and gave a virtuouso performance, no matter how unpleasant it may appear to you.
May I point out that you need training to use the media and get your message across? A good PR firm could help. The Australian Trade Unions run courses for their staff on how to deal with the media and get their message across - its a skill that can be taught, and unions can do a brilliant marketing job if they work on it. Just ask any Australian pilot what "MUA, here to Stay" refers to.
The Public's attention span is very short. They are bombarded with advertisements all day and the ten second sound bite is all that sticks, hence Mr. O'Leary's repetitive "100,000 for 18 hours work" mantra. The public have no interest in the details of your rostering systems at all, and probably wouldn't understand its implications if they did. All that sticks is the sound bite. Professionals can help you develop your own.
Without wishing to open old wounds, the portrayal of professional pilots as overpaid prima donnas has been used with devastating effect before, noteably during the Australian pilots strike. I suggest you need to find professional help in building and delivering your story, including the sound bites. This is especially important because you cannot go too far without seeming to be alarmist and threatening your livelihoods.
Good luck!
P.S. If you hope to get public support for your cause, for a start, stop your colleagues from referring to passengers as "self loading freight".
May I point out that you need training to use the media and get your message across? A good PR firm could help. The Australian Trade Unions run courses for their staff on how to deal with the media and get their message across - its a skill that can be taught, and unions can do a brilliant marketing job if they work on it. Just ask any Australian pilot what "MUA, here to Stay" refers to.
The Public's attention span is very short. They are bombarded with advertisements all day and the ten second sound bite is all that sticks, hence Mr. O'Leary's repetitive "100,000 for 18 hours work" mantra. The public have no interest in the details of your rostering systems at all, and probably wouldn't understand its implications if they did. All that sticks is the sound bite. Professionals can help you develop your own.
Without wishing to open old wounds, the portrayal of professional pilots as overpaid prima donnas has been used with devastating effect before, noteably during the Australian pilots strike. I suggest you need to find professional help in building and delivering your story, including the sound bites. This is especially important because you cannot go too far without seeming to be alarmist and threatening your livelihoods.
Good luck!
P.S. If you hope to get public support for your cause, for a start, stop your colleagues from referring to passengers as "self loading freight".
As a frequent flyer, with an interest in aviation, I cannot more firmly agree with the above post, which I why I have quoted it in full. I completely sympathise with the crew caught up in working with MOL, but the point is not getting through to joe public IMO.
Stating it's a three on five off or six on two off or seven up and three down (you get the idea) roster, means B*gger all to most pax. I accept that the rostering detail is important, but as Sunfish says, just watch what MOL does. He just repeats the same statement over and over again, regardless of its validity. He does not argue the detail, he is simply talking directly to the public. The 'sound bite' is all that is remembered.
When interviewed recently over security, MOL must have used the phrase 'a million free seats with Ryanair' at least twenty times in a three minute slot. That is all joe public remembers, and off they go to Ryanair.com to book.
Don't forget, as regards all aspects of aviation safety, from joe public perspective, there is a fundamental belief (rightly or wrongly) that 'If they weren't safe, they wouldn't let them fly'.
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Saw the VT. Have to say neither impressed me while both may have valid points. I suppose if there were not moderator or time constraint the debate would have been more interesting.
The regulators, in part comprised of our elected representatives and appointed officials, are the individuals who impose a limit on the number of hours a pilot can be scheduled to fly. These limitations have not kept up with the massive changes in the airline industry concerning short haul operations. The regulators need to further define a limit as to the number of the hours to a specific monthly limit expressed as 1/12th of the annual limitation. Unfortunately many airlines lobby the same elected officials we put into office... and well... you probably know how the political system works.
I don’t have to tell you that four or five consecutive days consisting of 10 hour duty days with 4 sectors is far more fatiguing on the body than flying one sector a day knowing that you are going to have about 24 hours of rest.
US pilots are abused to an even greater degree. We have an extra 100 hours per year we can be schedule to fly. The FARs do not impose the same rest requirements as they may in other countries. Under the FARs, while conducting flag operations, pilots can fly 120 hours in 30 consecutive days, however, not to exceed 300 hours in 90 days.
After we have flown to our limits, we as check airmen have to sit in the jump seat and conduct line checks. When riding the jump seat conducting line checks, we are not subject to the required rest or FTD limitations as are in place outside the US, as we are not considered as part of the flight crew.
Pilots in the US are subjected to the same abuse.
At the end of the day it's the same airline but different paint job.
The regulators, in part comprised of our elected representatives and appointed officials, are the individuals who impose a limit on the number of hours a pilot can be scheduled to fly. These limitations have not kept up with the massive changes in the airline industry concerning short haul operations. The regulators need to further define a limit as to the number of the hours to a specific monthly limit expressed as 1/12th of the annual limitation. Unfortunately many airlines lobby the same elected officials we put into office... and well... you probably know how the political system works.
I don’t have to tell you that four or five consecutive days consisting of 10 hour duty days with 4 sectors is far more fatiguing on the body than flying one sector a day knowing that you are going to have about 24 hours of rest.
US pilots are abused to an even greater degree. We have an extra 100 hours per year we can be schedule to fly. The FARs do not impose the same rest requirements as they may in other countries. Under the FARs, while conducting flag operations, pilots can fly 120 hours in 30 consecutive days, however, not to exceed 300 hours in 90 days.
After we have flown to our limits, we as check airmen have to sit in the jump seat and conduct line checks. When riding the jump seat conducting line checks, we are not subject to the required rest or FTD limitations as are in place outside the US, as we are not considered as part of the flight crew.
Pilots in the US are subjected to the same abuse.
At the end of the day it's the same airline but different paint job.
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Is there any chance the IAA can be made accountable?
I phoned the IAA the get their reaction and was given the name of Lillian Cassin their spin doctor. I called her and she complained that the IAA were happy to take part only if the programme was live and couldn't be edited.
Well I am sorry but I thought the programme was live?
Her mobile number is 087 6474079 if anybody wants to complain. 00353c87 6474079 from abroad.
I didn't give my name though and blocked my number, I ain't that stupid.
And moderator, please don't pull this one as the number is being given out by the IAA.
I am not over stepping the mark in giving her number as the IAA head office are the people that gave out her number.
If any of you feel unhappy with these bunch of incompetence, please let them know.
This lady was clearly out of her depth in arguing the case and finally said she couldn't talk about it on the phone. All a bit sinister from an outfit with nothing to hide.
I challenged her about the IAA meaningless PR statement of 'we operate to the highest operating standards'........... I said o.k., lets compare you with the CAA, with their CHIRP set up, for example and the fact they respond to complaints like the ones made by pilots.
I challenged her on every disected statement from the IAA, like when they say they have not seen evidence that fatigue has caused any incident ever in Ryanair.
I asked her was she waiting for the accident so she can have the proof?
Ring this lady if you like, the IAA invite you.
I phoned the IAA the get their reaction and was given the name of Lillian Cassin their spin doctor. I called her and she complained that the IAA were happy to take part only if the programme was live and couldn't be edited.
Well I am sorry but I thought the programme was live?
Her mobile number is 087 6474079 if anybody wants to complain. 00353c87 6474079 from abroad.
I didn't give my name though and blocked my number, I ain't that stupid.
And moderator, please don't pull this one as the number is being given out by the IAA.
I am not over stepping the mark in giving her number as the IAA head office are the people that gave out her number.
If any of you feel unhappy with these bunch of incompetence, please let them know.
This lady was clearly out of her depth in arguing the case and finally said she couldn't talk about it on the phone. All a bit sinister from an outfit with nothing to hide.
I challenged her about the IAA meaningless PR statement of 'we operate to the highest operating standards'........... I said o.k., lets compare you with the CAA, with their CHIRP set up, for example and the fact they respond to complaints like the ones made by pilots.
I challenged her on every disected statement from the IAA, like when they say they have not seen evidence that fatigue has caused any incident ever in Ryanair.
I asked her was she waiting for the accident so she can have the proof?
Ring this lady if you like, the IAA invite you.
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I really, really have to ask myself what the knobs in RTE thought they were up to in trying to cover this important issue by having the head of Ryanair debate the subject with the head of IALPA. Non-aviation folk may not get the irony of the characters, but anyone with half a brain would realise that that either Ryanair operate under different rules in Ireland, or else RTE were trying to blow smoke up their arses. And yet, media comment the day after the Prime time slot was focused on Ryanair and safety. So, I agree with you that “Michael won” and Evan shouldn’t be let near a TV station, but many of you probably didn’t have the opportunity to see the reaction afterward, so RTE should be censured.
This is clearly an industry problem judged by the few honest answers on this thread - not just an Irish problem - not just a Ryanair problem. For the usual suspects to throw their dummies out of the pram and insist this is all about the evil empire and the gnome from Mullingar: ignoring facts, thuggish behaviour, and shouting down your detractors are not exclusive to MOL, try looking in the mirror. I suppose someone’s going to ask if I’m a Ryanair pilot now, or tell me they’ll be keeping an eye on me.
This is clearly an industry problem judged by the few honest answers on this thread - not just an Irish problem - not just a Ryanair problem. For the usual suspects to throw their dummies out of the pram and insist this is all about the evil empire and the gnome from Mullingar: ignoring facts, thuggish behaviour, and shouting down your detractors are not exclusive to MOL, try looking in the mirror. I suppose someone’s going to ask if I’m a Ryanair pilot now, or tell me they’ll be keeping an eye on me.
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Quite so Bear11, it's not that different in easyJet workwise, just they don't have the oppressive management. The summer that most guys have had in easyJet is unsustainable, yet the promised roster pattern for next year is also unsustainable according to their boss.
From my perspective, 5 x 10-12 hour days is unsafe/unsustainable no matter how many days off I get afterwards, but whether it's Ryanair or easyJet or anybody else, fatigue is and will always be a fact of life in a LoCo and if anybody thinks otherwise, all I can say is try it, then you'll understand.
M O'L might be the Big Bad Boss that other airline executives will try to distance themselves from, but they're the same really, and all are quite happy to reap the rewards of their overworked pilots; it's just that O' Leary doesn't hide his contempt of them.
From my perspective, 5 x 10-12 hour days is unsafe/unsustainable no matter how many days off I get afterwards, but whether it's Ryanair or easyJet or anybody else, fatigue is and will always be a fact of life in a LoCo and if anybody thinks otherwise, all I can say is try it, then you'll understand.
M O'L might be the Big Bad Boss that other airline executives will try to distance themselves from, but they're the same really, and all are quite happy to reap the rewards of their overworked pilots; it's just that O' Leary doesn't hide his contempt of them.
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What I cant uderstand is if things are so bad in Ryan Air why dont you all just get up and leave.The world is awash with jobs at the moment and I know people that are in Ryan Air years and still have no intention of leaving.There are pilots leaving the likes of Dragon Air for the Ryans!!!
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captjns
I have followed this (FR) argument in many threads across several years and choose not to travel with FR. But, I have to say, that this statement from captjns is simply the most frightning that I have seen. How is it possible that a person in the process of testing others for their skills may themselves be fatiqued???? How can any Aviation Authority allow this? It means that the Check Ride has been given the lowest priority. It means that no one knows who is safe. I cannot express how astounded I am to learn this.
Please advise which AAs allow this? Is it just IAA or are those lovely people at CAA and FAA also allowing the carriers to get away with this? I would rather pay the price for the oversight that we are constantly told is in place, then continue to get cheap seats. Yes, I know that most people won't take that attitude.
My admiration to Check Captains who work under this strain.
After we have flown to our limits, we as check airmen have to sit in the jump seat and conduct line checks. When riding the jump seat conducting line checks, we are not subject to the required rest or FTD limitations as are in place outside the US, as we are not considered as part of the flight crew.
Please advise which AAs allow this? Is it just IAA or are those lovely people at CAA and FAA also allowing the carriers to get away with this? I would rather pay the price for the oversight that we are constantly told is in place, then continue to get cheap seats. Yes, I know that most people won't take that attitude.
My admiration to Check Captains who work under this strain.
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RTE's sensationalist crap VT played into MOL's hands here. The average Irish viewer is not going to be the least bit sympathetic to pilots who have to "fly up to 30 hours a week" and work for "9 hours a day" and "start work at 5am" when a huge number of ordinary working people put in 9 or more hours every day and work over 40 hours a week.
And RTE had the stupidity to show this program the night after a program about junior doctors working 110 hours a week and 36 hour shifts. Admittedly doctors just get to kill people one at a time, not hundreds at once.
There are many other jobs (ATCs spring to mind) where people work shifts, splits, unsociable hours, whatever.
I rarely work less than 45 hours a week. Sleeping on the job is a sackable offense for me. If pilots feel fatigued from working a normal 40-50 hour week the issue is stress, or bad rostering, or inadequate rest periods, not hours worked. Pilots need to get _that_ message across and stop harping on about hours per week which everyone else is just going to see as whining.
And RTE had the stupidity to show this program the night after a program about junior doctors working 110 hours a week and 36 hour shifts. Admittedly doctors just get to kill people one at a time, not hundreds at once.
There are many other jobs (ATCs spring to mind) where people work shifts, splits, unsociable hours, whatever.
I rarely work less than 45 hours a week. Sleeping on the job is a sackable offense for me. If pilots feel fatigued from working a normal 40-50 hour week the issue is stress, or bad rostering, or inadequate rest periods, not hours worked. Pilots need to get _that_ message across and stop harping on about hours per week which everyone else is just going to see as whining.
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OK, Mr Moderator, lets try this a different way then:
Leo Hairy Camel can be said to be prostituting his professionalism as a professional pilot that he purports to be by slavishly supporting every word thought and deed of his mill-owner style boss, Mr. O'Lairy. Worse still, the unsustainable nature of the Ryan operation drags down every other operator into the gutter where Ryan's treatment of its employees can be said to be by forcing them to compete with the level of treatment that Ryan dish-out.
Am I alone in being disgusted by every word I read thats written by O lairy's little assistant, Leo?
Leo Hairy Camel can be said to be prostituting his professionalism as a professional pilot that he purports to be by slavishly supporting every word thought and deed of his mill-owner style boss, Mr. O'Lairy. Worse still, the unsustainable nature of the Ryan operation drags down every other operator into the gutter where Ryan's treatment of its employees can be said to be by forcing them to compete with the level of treatment that Ryan dish-out.
Am I alone in being disgusted by every word I read thats written by O lairy's little assistant, Leo?
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Let the debate continue?
Hi all
I too was disgusted by the unwarranted and slanderous comments made by MOL /LEO towards Evan.
If Mr O'Leary really wants to state his case with the proof to back it up why don't we let this debate continue?
I'd sure like to hear the scientific analysis of the situation we find ourselves in Irish aviation.
Mr O'Leary is forever complaining that the media do not afford him sufficient time to state Ryanair's case and as a result we get sound bite rhetoric in a 15 minute window of television.
Surely if this is a safety issue Mr O'Leary will be happy to clear his company's name. If IALPA wish to pursue this then it is in both parties interests to state the case of the health of Irish Aviation in a modern industrial Ireland.
And let me not forget the IAA who would do well to understand both these polarised viewpoints didn't just happen overnight or on a political analysis talkshow. What are their views?
I too was disgusted by the unwarranted and slanderous comments made by MOL /LEO towards Evan.
If Mr O'Leary really wants to state his case with the proof to back it up why don't we let this debate continue?
I'd sure like to hear the scientific analysis of the situation we find ourselves in Irish aviation.
Mr O'Leary is forever complaining that the media do not afford him sufficient time to state Ryanair's case and as a result we get sound bite rhetoric in a 15 minute window of television.
Surely if this is a safety issue Mr O'Leary will be happy to clear his company's name. If IALPA wish to pursue this then it is in both parties interests to state the case of the health of Irish Aviation in a modern industrial Ireland.
And let me not forget the IAA who would do well to understand both these polarised viewpoints didn't just happen overnight or on a political analysis talkshow. What are their views?
Last edited by safewing; 15th Sep 2006 at 10:49.
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Pos_init hit the nail on the head when he said that MOL gave a good performance (I paraphrase!); MOL gave a great performance! What the punters heard and saw was what others in this thread have already noted, that bloody pilots are overpaid and they only work 18 hours a week, to boot!
Cullen, at the other end of the table, was literally overwhelmed by MOL and the interviewer wasn't very far behind. MOL got the message across that he came into the studio to deliver and I would say he left a very happy man!!!!
Cullen was Bambi in the head-lights for far too long and missed the mark when he did manage to part his lips; talking of which, got to go.............
Cullen, at the other end of the table, was literally overwhelmed by MOL and the interviewer wasn't very far behind. MOL got the message across that he came into the studio to deliver and I would say he left a very happy man!!!!
Cullen was Bambi in the head-lights for far too long and missed the mark when he did manage to part his lips; talking of which, got to go.............
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It was as if they were both jockying for losing position in the faceoff
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Just has a quick glance at the roster for mon-sun next wk. Just under 34 hrs block time, thats around 46.5 duty hours. So, using the THEOREM OF O'LEARY, "100k for 18hrs work" and his philosophy of basic maths (46.5/18= 2.5 ish), I should be in for a windfall next payday, bring on the 28th!!
One thing all of you might like to note if you ever have to argue matters like safety, is that the boss will not argue what is safe, he will argue what is legal. I once found this out the hard way.
Mr. O Leary's purpose in criticising the TV presenter for not having the IAA take part in the debate was a good tactic. We know of course, like all public servants, if the the IAA or any regulator had been present, they would have explained that Ryanair's rosters were legal and that would be the end of the matter as far as they are concerned.
You have to get your argument packaged into sound bites by a PR professional if you want to win any of these fights.
Mr. O Leary's purpose in criticising the TV presenter for not having the IAA take part in the debate was a good tactic. We know of course, like all public servants, if the the IAA or any regulator had been present, they would have explained that Ryanair's rosters were legal and that would be the end of the matter as far as they are concerned.
You have to get your argument packaged into sound bites by a PR professional if you want to win any of these fights.