NON UK PASSPORT HOLDERS SHOULD GO!
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Well said FMS146. Couldn't say it better myself.
Chiglet - you are just plain wrong when you say that "anyone can live and work in the UK".
If you hold a passport from one of the EU countries then you may work and live in the UK without requiring any permission / work permit etc AND VICE VERSA.
If you are a Commmonwealth citizen eg NZ, Aus, SA (to name but a few) then, if you under 28 years old you are entitled to a 2 year visa and undertake work "incidental to a holiday" during that time. Typical OE ("overseas experience") stuff this not usually applicable to professionals in any field including pilots I would have thought. There are reciprocal rights for British citizens.
If you fall outside these categories then in general, you can be sponsored by an employer
which means that the employer arranges a work visa for you with the Home Office. Usually the grounds for this are that the employer cannot hire a person having a general right to residence in the UK for the job and therefore needs to hire someone who does not otherwise have that right to residence.
There may be other categories in general - perhaps other PPRuNers may know.
But can can anyone just wander into Britain and start work. No. Absolutely not. Just ask any non-EU passport holder that has turned up at Heathrow and told Immigration "oh, I thought I'd just move here and continue my career". "Next plane home for you" would be the generic response.
Chiglet - you are just plain wrong when you say that "anyone can live and work in the UK".
If you hold a passport from one of the EU countries then you may work and live in the UK without requiring any permission / work permit etc AND VICE VERSA.
If you are a Commmonwealth citizen eg NZ, Aus, SA (to name but a few) then, if you under 28 years old you are entitled to a 2 year visa and undertake work "incidental to a holiday" during that time. Typical OE ("overseas experience") stuff this not usually applicable to professionals in any field including pilots I would have thought. There are reciprocal rights for British citizens.
If you fall outside these categories then in general, you can be sponsored by an employer
which means that the employer arranges a work visa for you with the Home Office. Usually the grounds for this are that the employer cannot hire a person having a general right to residence in the UK for the job and therefore needs to hire someone who does not otherwise have that right to residence.
There may be other categories in general - perhaps other PPRuNers may know.
But can can anyone just wander into Britain and start work. No. Absolutely not. Just ask any non-EU passport holder that has turned up at Heathrow and told Immigration "oh, I thought I'd just move here and continue my career". "Next plane home for you" would be the generic response.
Join Date: Jul 1998
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BB is sadly correct in what he says, he may not have expressed himself well in his first post, but there is a definite one way traffic of Non EU pilots flying in the UK. I have read the opposition posts with interest, particularly as I would suspect many of them are in fact our overseas guests, the very subject matter of this debate. It is very true that many Brit pilots hold posts in airlines all over the world, but these are largely where no local skill is available to fill the positions. It is undisputed that when locals are available to fill these expat jobs, the expat becomes a redundant requirement. The fundamental problem is that even before the recent events in the industry many UK carriers employed Non EU pilots, many without the right to live or work here. Provision of a level playing field is all that is asked. The situation complained of now is very justified in my opinion. It's very depressing to stand in the dole queue thinking of Non EU pilots flying around Europe.
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Really, Dirty Harry?
Well since you're so confident of your facts, why don't you give us one verifiable example in recent history of a UK airline employing pilots that didn't have the legal right to live and work here. Just one single airline, that's all I'm after.
Should be interesting ... as your namesake said "Go ahead punk ... make my day"
Well since you're so confident of your facts, why don't you give us one verifiable example in recent history of a UK airline employing pilots that didn't have the legal right to live and work here. Just one single airline, that's all I'm after.
Should be interesting ... as your namesake said "Go ahead punk ... make my day"
Join Date: May 2000
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Well here's my story. Aussie married to an English Rose! Happily living in Aust flying a good a/c in a good company doing quite well. We had our first child in Aust(she has dual citizenship) and the Rose gets homesick, so I leave the company I enjoyed, do all the exams and tests the UK CAA require and 6 months later continue to fly the same a/c in the UK. In the 3 years since then, we now have a boy born in the UK and I have progressed to a command and a line training position with the company. My "vague" right to remain here is now and I quote from my passport 'Given leave to remain in the United Kingdom for an Indefinite Period'. I have paid my taxes & NI and have never claimed a penny in Benefit. So BB and others in the National Front, should I leave my British family to fend for themselves? Think about it ******s!!!!!!!!!!
Join Date: Mar 1999
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Not quite true, Dirty Harry.
One common reason for Brit expats being employed overseas is lower labour costs (no social security/tax liabilities). There is also the additional carrot of less unionisation problems.
As others have said, if all the Brit expats came home, there would be many hundreds more pilots on the dole queue.
I still can't figure out where you get the idea that jobs in the UK/EU belong to Brits...
One common reason for Brit expats being employed overseas is lower labour costs (no social security/tax liabilities). There is also the additional carrot of less unionisation problems.
As others have said, if all the Brit expats came home, there would be many hundreds more pilots on the dole queue.
I still can't figure out where you get the idea that jobs in the UK/EU belong to Brits...
Join Date: Aug 2001
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The point is that in the US they seem to be giving non US passport holders 12 months to either get citizenship or leave their flying
Any facts to back it up or shall we perpetuate the myth??
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Hey 123.40 it gets even better when the boys are over here playing cricket for the summer, and then there was the world cup for real football (that would be rugby union), Wimbledon was also a good topic of conversation in the hole this year. Then there was the world superbikes, blah, blah......
Only joking fellas, I'm sure one of your guys will win it next year!!
ps an Aussie in the UK in a USA built flying machine, with the right to live and work in the UK (thanks Grandma and Grandpa) and lovin it!!
Only joking fellas, I'm sure one of your guys will win it next year!!
ps an Aussie in the UK in a USA built flying machine, with the right to live and work in the UK (thanks Grandma and Grandpa) and lovin it!!
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Kicking out non-EU pilots who are flying UK/EU registered aircraft and holding UK/EU licences - plus the appropriate work permits is a bit of a non starter.
However, I am all in favour of kicking out non-EU aircraft (and crews) working in the EU on wet leases - unless of course their country of origin allows EU airlines to wet lease their aircraft (including crews) into their markets.
Can anyone think of any countries that might apply to?
However, I am all in favour of kicking out non-EU aircraft (and crews) working in the EU on wet leases - unless of course their country of origin allows EU airlines to wet lease their aircraft (including crews) into their markets.
Can anyone think of any countries that might apply to?
The Reverend
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chiglet,you ask to be corrected. I disagree with your point No.2. Who the hell would want to date Madonna? I also disagree with your point No.3. Whilst flying for an overseas company with a UK hub, I applied for a UK basing which was denied due to my non British ancestry, albeit a Commonwealth citizen. Anyhow, just as well. Who the hell would want to be based in sunny Manchester???
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this wind up is a cunning stunt. It's light reading relief to all the international aviation community as opposted to all those who fear that they won the war and all **** begin at Callis.
"I am a European....... but I long for the commonwealth......but, ah s#it..........I want to go to asia & work for the people we used to control - because they still need us..........( and it goes on )
"I am a European....... but I long for the commonwealth......but, ah s#it..........I want to go to asia & work for the people we used to control - because they still need us..........( and it goes on )
Trash du Blanc
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Hotdog! Maybe not date her, but what about a torrid night with all appropriate whips, chains and other appliances? (Give me a couple months first for an intensive workout routine and an antibiotic regimen)
Just a numbered other
Hugmonster,
I thank you for your post and I take on board all your points. I shall be outside your office with a copy of The Beano down my trousers to recieve my caning!
My point was, and I stand by it, that in a normal UK secondary education, you are likely to be offered French as a second language. Specialists may take other languages at the expence of other subjects.
In other countries, English will most likely be taught as a second language.
It follows therefore, that there will be more foreigners with a smattering of English, than Brits with a smattering of any number of other tongues.
It's simply a fact, and I quite agree that other languages are available to all of us. Should I fancy a job in a certain country, I'll learn the language, and just as I'm ready to apply for the job, it's gone. Repeat exercise monthly until retirement in poverty.
I thank you for your post and I take on board all your points. I shall be outside your office with a copy of The Beano down my trousers to recieve my caning!
My point was, and I stand by it, that in a normal UK secondary education, you are likely to be offered French as a second language. Specialists may take other languages at the expence of other subjects.
In other countries, English will most likely be taught as a second language.
It follows therefore, that there will be more foreigners with a smattering of English, than Brits with a smattering of any number of other tongues.
It's simply a fact, and I quite agree that other languages are available to all of us. Should I fancy a job in a certain country, I'll learn the language, and just as I'm ready to apply for the job, it's gone. Repeat exercise monthly until retirement in poverty.
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Well lots of differing opinions on this one!!
Regarding the non-UK/non-EU pilot thing, I think that the main problem is that the playing field is not exactly level.
For example I know from my own experiences that trying to get a job in another country is practically impossible, despite the fact that from a "legal" point of view I hold all the relevant minimum qualifications to fly an airliner anywhere in the EU. The language of flying is English and if you do move to another country you'll be semi-fluent in the native language within a few months if you make an effort to learn it.
Most countries in the EU actually give their residents a good grounding in a few languages and I havent met many foreigners that aren't fluent in at least 2 languages.. how many Brits can say that?
I used to teach english in Romania and my 12 year old students had a knowledge of French and English that vastly surpassed that of A-Level students in the UK.
The other point is that the UK seems to be one of the few countries that is not protectionist. I'm sure the reason that I cant get employment abroad (recent events notwithstanding) is that I am simply not a native of that country and they'd rather employ a native than me. I dont have a problem with that, I simply want the same level of protection for myself in my own country
All airline pilots and crew should be able to speak good english anyway so communication on the job wont be a problem
It gets very frustrating to see scores of low hour Dutch/French/German etc etc pilots flying for UK airlines when I know that I simply wouldnt be able to get employed by one of their airlines.
I will never object to non-UK/non-EU people working here if they have married someone British ir if they have a right to residency based on their Parents/Grandparents being British etc etc.
However I do believe there is no justification at all for having Non-EU people working here when there are plenty of our own that can do the same job just as well.
I dont consider myself xenophobic or anti-foreigner in trying to give myself an equal and fair shot at getting a job.. My girlfriend is Dutch and I have American, Cypriot, Romanian, Polish, French, German, Australian and Asian friends so I certainly cant be accused of being xenophobic!!!
Ok I've probably waffled enough.. apolgies if you fell asleep!
Any thoughts or replies appreciated
Loony
Regarding the non-UK/non-EU pilot thing, I think that the main problem is that the playing field is not exactly level.
For example I know from my own experiences that trying to get a job in another country is practically impossible, despite the fact that from a "legal" point of view I hold all the relevant minimum qualifications to fly an airliner anywhere in the EU. The language of flying is English and if you do move to another country you'll be semi-fluent in the native language within a few months if you make an effort to learn it.
Most countries in the EU actually give their residents a good grounding in a few languages and I havent met many foreigners that aren't fluent in at least 2 languages.. how many Brits can say that?
I used to teach english in Romania and my 12 year old students had a knowledge of French and English that vastly surpassed that of A-Level students in the UK.
The other point is that the UK seems to be one of the few countries that is not protectionist. I'm sure the reason that I cant get employment abroad (recent events notwithstanding) is that I am simply not a native of that country and they'd rather employ a native than me. I dont have a problem with that, I simply want the same level of protection for myself in my own country
All airline pilots and crew should be able to speak good english anyway so communication on the job wont be a problem
It gets very frustrating to see scores of low hour Dutch/French/German etc etc pilots flying for UK airlines when I know that I simply wouldnt be able to get employed by one of their airlines.
I will never object to non-UK/non-EU people working here if they have married someone British ir if they have a right to residency based on their Parents/Grandparents being British etc etc.
However I do believe there is no justification at all for having Non-EU people working here when there are plenty of our own that can do the same job just as well.
I dont consider myself xenophobic or anti-foreigner in trying to give myself an equal and fair shot at getting a job.. My girlfriend is Dutch and I have American, Cypriot, Romanian, Polish, French, German, Australian and Asian friends so I certainly cant be accused of being xenophobic!!!
Ok I've probably waffled enough.. apolgies if you fell asleep!
Any thoughts or replies appreciated
Loony
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HugMonster got it right,we need to learn to leave in peace with each other, and working together(Asa TEAM!!!!)is only the first step.
Throwing out foreigners we would only start feeling of ager and hate, and make things wors in this already tense times,,
Throwing out foreigners we would only start feeling of ager and hate, and make things wors in this already tense times,,
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From 1947 New Zealand gave assisted passage to 76,673 Poms, ...errr British people to immigrate to NZ. We didn't chuck them out during the fuel crisis in the 70's or the slump of the 1990s or the various other recessions or employment squeezes. Now the tide is turning and their offspring, spouses of offspring are going to where the grass is currently greenest.
Fact is, to get an airline job here you have to "have the right to live and work...", I do, full stop.
I am tempted to add "Na Na Na Naaaa Naaaaa" but that would be immature.
[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: Oleo ]
Fact is, to get an airline job here you have to "have the right to live and work...", I do, full stop.
I am tempted to add "Na Na Na Naaaa Naaaaa" but that would be immature.
[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: Oleo ]