Gentlemen ,Remove those turbans
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Alchemy
I have never quite understood why the USA gives such blinkered and unquestioning support for Israel. I can only assume that the Jewish lobby has overwhelming control over the government and media, that you never get an unbiased view of whats happening. Do you not think its strange that the rest of the world takes a different view of the Palestinian / Israeli conflict?
Yes the Jews were violently oppressed but they have learned nothing. Israel is a Police state, that routinely orders assinations, detains without trial and ignores UN resolutions. It occupies land for "security" reasons and then build houses on it for zealous US jews who wanna come home.
I am pleased that the UK is standing shoulder to shoulder with the USA in the war against terrorism, but if anything is going to bring down the world coalition its increased US support for Israel.
I have never quite understood why the USA gives such blinkered and unquestioning support for Israel. I can only assume that the Jewish lobby has overwhelming control over the government and media, that you never get an unbiased view of whats happening. Do you not think its strange that the rest of the world takes a different view of the Palestinian / Israeli conflict?
Yes the Jews were violently oppressed but they have learned nothing. Israel is a Police state, that routinely orders assinations, detains without trial and ignores UN resolutions. It occupies land for "security" reasons and then build houses on it for zealous US jews who wanna come home.
I am pleased that the UK is standing shoulder to shoulder with the USA in the war against terrorism, but if anything is going to bring down the world coalition its increased US support for Israel.
Just a numbered other
Alchemy said
'The Palestinian people are so greedy they won't even share a shred of land with a people that have been violently oppressed throughout the last century.'
Is the boot not now on the other foot?
'The Palestinian people are so greedy they won't even share a shred of land with a people that have been violently oppressed throughout the last century.'
Is the boot not now on the other foot?
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As an yank I have been as perplexed as anyone else over the years concerning America's blind and aggressive support of Israel. The events of 911 are certainly, to a degree, the results of this. Unfortunately America is a country that has been unable to erradicate drug smuggling and illegal immigrant entry for decades. Stopping the current terriorist movements against it appear to be impossible. My expeiences in the Middle East have shown me that Islam is both intorerent and dangerous to Western culture with a determination to erradicate it. 5 UK citizens of ME descent left last week stating that Islam oversees nationality and joined the Taliban. Think about that. They also stated they would kill Tony Blair if able. Very scary. Whats even more scary is the fact that many Americans believe the proper actions, after the 911 murders, would have been to immediately carpet bomb Afganistan with nukes, when proof was verified that the 'binster' was there. Any further mass murder in the US would have been answered by nuking Mecca. The Islamic world should be appreciative of the US restraint with surgical bombing with a fixed goal. We didn't become the most powerful and financially stongest nation by luck. Believe me if the terriorist activities continue to occur in the US, the future actions might become a "tad" more aggressive.
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Related comments, Not mine. The terriorists are waking a sleeping monster, not a sleeping lion. Also seems to me there are a bit more Islamics envolved in this crisis than just the Taliban. In fact can't even think of anything the Taliban has done except support the 'binster', except maybe remove every civil right imaginable to their citizens.
Black Flag Gentlemen.
Black Flag Gentlemen.
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If Muslims all over the place (Luton local papers, please copy) think that this is a war against Islam, exactly what religion do they suppose is represented by the Northern Alliance, not to mention all those who have fled the Taliban's regime?
What really worries me is that there are some idiots on the "Western" side who think this is a war against "rag-heads" everywhere. Such people are merely adding fuel to the fire that will consume their lives.
What really worries me is that there are some idiots on the "Western" side who think this is a war against "rag-heads" everywhere. Such people are merely adding fuel to the fire that will consume their lives.
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I'm sure the islamic fundamentalist, their tacit supporters worldwide, and agents think of A320 and Arkroyal fondly -- sort of like "useful fools."
We say this is not a religious war, but the islamists think, say, and insist it is. Listen to what they say among themselves. Listen to the spewing of hate. Listen to what they teach the children. Watch how they threaten and kill any of their islamic "brothers" if they don't espouse the rhetoric. Come to the US and listen to what they say to the news media, then hear what they say in their islamic conventions. We remain PC and in-denial at our peril.
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
We say this is not a religious war, but the islamists think, say, and insist it is. Listen to what they say among themselves. Listen to the spewing of hate. Listen to what they teach the children. Watch how they threaten and kill any of their islamic "brothers" if they don't espouse the rhetoric. Come to the US and listen to what they say to the news media, then hear what they say in their islamic conventions. We remain PC and in-denial at our peril.
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
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Road trip, you may be right about them being viewed as "useful fools". Unlike you, they are at least useful.
Have you not heard all the denouncements from Muslims worldwide of the atrocities? If any more than a small minority viewed it this way, don't you think we'd be in deep, deep doodoo? Do you have any idea what the most widespread, the most popular religion in the world is?
That some may support Bin Laden and the Taliban and have totally distorted ideas of what Islam teaches is no reason to condemn all, as your post attempts. To do so is blatantly prejudiced and ignorant, and brands your post as unworthy of any thinking, reasoning human being. Furthermore, since it is likely to inflame moderate Muslims, is dangerous to all. Please desist. If you're a danger to the non-terrorist world, you're no use to the non-terrorist world, and we'll have to dispose of you quietly while nobody is looking
Have you not heard all the denouncements from Muslims worldwide of the atrocities? If any more than a small minority viewed it this way, don't you think we'd be in deep, deep doodoo? Do you have any idea what the most widespread, the most popular religion in the world is?
That some may support Bin Laden and the Taliban and have totally distorted ideas of what Islam teaches is no reason to condemn all, as your post attempts. To do so is blatantly prejudiced and ignorant, and brands your post as unworthy of any thinking, reasoning human being. Furthermore, since it is likely to inflame moderate Muslims, is dangerous to all. Please desist. If you're a danger to the non-terrorist world, you're no use to the non-terrorist world, and we'll have to dispose of you quietly while nobody is looking
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The terrorists may have woken a sleeping giant but this situation is completely different to Pearl Harbour and 1941. A war had already been raging for 2 years prior to it and in any event the enemy was identifiable.
Global terrorism is an insidious enemy which exists in the shadows and strikes when least expected. As for the Taleban fighters, they will be no pushover. It is their home territory and they are hardy resilient people who will not be scared of dying for their cause. I am more than a little concerned that the Americans are underestimating the problem. Flattening Afghanistan will not eradicate the problem - it will probably intensify it. History has shown that Islam has always been a militant religion, engendering more loyalty towards the faith than the nation of birth. That alone raises some worrying and difficult questions in these testing times. That said I have a lot of sympathy for the majority of the dispossessed Palestinian people.
Global terrorism is an insidious enemy which exists in the shadows and strikes when least expected. As for the Taleban fighters, they will be no pushover. It is their home territory and they are hardy resilient people who will not be scared of dying for their cause. I am more than a little concerned that the Americans are underestimating the problem. Flattening Afghanistan will not eradicate the problem - it will probably intensify it. History has shown that Islam has always been a militant religion, engendering more loyalty towards the faith than the nation of birth. That alone raises some worrying and difficult questions in these testing times. That said I have a lot of sympathy for the majority of the dispossessed Palestinian people.
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On Sunday (Oct 28) a local Mosque had an open day, which I ("protestant") and some (Roman Catholic) colleagues decided to attend. OK, it was a PR exercise, for obvious reasons, but they clearly denounced terrorism AND the Taliban (they said they were in the "dark ages"). It was a very worthwhile and moving 2 hours - they certainly did themselves great justice. They also said that all Mosques are always open and that anyone is free to come and witness the prayers.
We must not tar all muslims with the same brush here. It is very narrow minded so to do. I urge you to visit your local Mosque to find out their real beliefs before it's too late.
BTW, I am not a convert - there is much in Islam that I cannot condone, but I am at least enlightened to the idea that we are talking about a power struggle here, more than a religious one (shades of IRA).
(and yes, I'll learn to spell - one day!)
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]
We must not tar all muslims with the same brush here. It is very narrow minded so to do. I urge you to visit your local Mosque to find out their real beliefs before it's too late.
BTW, I am not a convert - there is much in Islam that I cannot condone, but I am at least enlightened to the idea that we are talking about a power struggle here, more than a religious one (shades of IRA).
(and yes, I'll learn to spell - one day!)
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]
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Let us not forget why this thread was started. Yes the Sikhs are being targeted and when so called congress men make racist remarks what chance have Sikhs got. Please take the time to read this article which I recieved today.....
In the wake of recent terrorist attacks, the turban, originally a practical
idea for protection, has become a symbol many Americans associate with
terrorists.
In SeaTac, Wash., recently, a man was charged with attacking a
turban-wearing Sikh cab driver, calling him a "butcher terrorist." In
Seattle, a man was arrested after he was accused of trying to choke a Sikh,
telling him, "You have no right to attack our country." In Arizona, a man
shot a Sikh gas-station owner to death, later explaining to authorities:
"I'm a patriot." Hundreds of other assaults on Sikhs have been reported
across the country.
Yes, Sikhs wear turbans. But they have no connection to the Islamic
extremists now wanted by the United States.
Rather, Sikhs are members of the world's fifth-biggest religion, which
traces its roots to northern India and espouses egalitarianism.
President Bush describes the new American enemy as shadowy and hard to find,
which may explain why some Americans are grasping for a way to identify
terrorists. But equating the ancient headgear with terrorism shows how
little is known about turbans.
Lesson No. 1: Not all turbans are the same. Fabric headwraps and
headcoverings are common in a wide swath of the world, from North Africa
across the Middle East and into Central Asia. At times, turbans have even
been found on the heads of fashion-conscious Europeans and atop the heads of
American pop-culture icons.
Like other types of clothing, the turban means different things depending on
who is wearing it and how it is worn.
A turban is a very long and narrow piece of cloth - 12 feet is not an
unusual length - made of cotton, silk or synthetics. It is wound around the
head and held on by its own tension, gravity or a chin strap.
The English word turban is believed to have come from the Persian word
dulband - a word which is also thought to be the etymological predecessor of
"tulip" and of the Spanish word for hammerhead shark, torbandalo.
Though no one knows when and where the turban originated, carvings left by
the Assyrians, who lived 3,000 years ago in the area that is now Iraq, show
turbans on the heads of kings.
That means that before there was Islam, or even Christianity, there were
turbans.
It also means that by 1000, the turban had evolved from a strictly
utilitarian piece of clothing into something used to connote nobility and
power.
The turban is like other pieces of fashion in this way, said Brannon
Wheeler, an associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of
Washington.
Just as shoes evolved from a practical foot covering into an item of
clothing that reveals a person's class and origins, so turbans evolved from
a simple head covering into something that identifies people along cultural,
religious, political and social lines.
Those seem to be distinctions many are unaware of. John Cooksey, a
Republican congressman from Louisiana, recently offered this suggestion for
weeding out terrorists: "If I see someone come in and he's got a diaper on
his head and a fanbelt wrapped around the diaper on his head, that guy needs
to be pulled over and checked."
Cooksey later apologized, saying he was referring only to Osama bin Laden,
but clearly the way he described the offending headgear shows a lack of
turban savvy. In the picture of bin Laden posted on the FBI's Most Wanted
list, the fugitive Saudi millionaire is wearing a white cloth turban wrapped
in a circular, spiraling fashion.
This is not the type of headcovering that requires what Cooksey called a
"fan belt" - a thick black cord known to people in the Middle East as an
ekal. The ekal is used to hold on a kaffiyeh, the patterned headcovering
made famous by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Kaffiyehs are worn by men in Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the Arab Persian Gulf
states. They are rectangular pieces of cloth folded diagonally and draped
over the head. Technically, they're not even turbans.
The American tendency to link turbans with terrorism may stem from the Iran
hostage crisis, with its images of Ayatollah Khomeini and his black turban.
But in most of the Muslim world, the wearing of a turban symbolizes simply
religious or political power.
Many Muslim spiritual leaders wear a white turban wrapped around a spherical
or conical hat known as a kalansuwa.
The irony of the American focus on turbans in the wake of the terrorist
attacks is that, at least in this country, turbans are a very poor predictor
of a person's involvement in terrorist violence. None of the hijackers wore
turbans.
salapilot
In the wake of recent terrorist attacks, the turban, originally a practical
idea for protection, has become a symbol many Americans associate with
terrorists.
In SeaTac, Wash., recently, a man was charged with attacking a
turban-wearing Sikh cab driver, calling him a "butcher terrorist." In
Seattle, a man was arrested after he was accused of trying to choke a Sikh,
telling him, "You have no right to attack our country." In Arizona, a man
shot a Sikh gas-station owner to death, later explaining to authorities:
"I'm a patriot." Hundreds of other assaults on Sikhs have been reported
across the country.
Yes, Sikhs wear turbans. But they have no connection to the Islamic
extremists now wanted by the United States.
Rather, Sikhs are members of the world's fifth-biggest religion, which
traces its roots to northern India and espouses egalitarianism.
President Bush describes the new American enemy as shadowy and hard to find,
which may explain why some Americans are grasping for a way to identify
terrorists. But equating the ancient headgear with terrorism shows how
little is known about turbans.
Lesson No. 1: Not all turbans are the same. Fabric headwraps and
headcoverings are common in a wide swath of the world, from North Africa
across the Middle East and into Central Asia. At times, turbans have even
been found on the heads of fashion-conscious Europeans and atop the heads of
American pop-culture icons.
Like other types of clothing, the turban means different things depending on
who is wearing it and how it is worn.
A turban is a very long and narrow piece of cloth - 12 feet is not an
unusual length - made of cotton, silk or synthetics. It is wound around the
head and held on by its own tension, gravity or a chin strap.
The English word turban is believed to have come from the Persian word
dulband - a word which is also thought to be the etymological predecessor of
"tulip" and of the Spanish word for hammerhead shark, torbandalo.
Though no one knows when and where the turban originated, carvings left by
the Assyrians, who lived 3,000 years ago in the area that is now Iraq, show
turbans on the heads of kings.
That means that before there was Islam, or even Christianity, there were
turbans.
It also means that by 1000, the turban had evolved from a strictly
utilitarian piece of clothing into something used to connote nobility and
power.
The turban is like other pieces of fashion in this way, said Brannon
Wheeler, an associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of
Washington.
Just as shoes evolved from a practical foot covering into an item of
clothing that reveals a person's class and origins, so turbans evolved from
a simple head covering into something that identifies people along cultural,
religious, political and social lines.
Those seem to be distinctions many are unaware of. John Cooksey, a
Republican congressman from Louisiana, recently offered this suggestion for
weeding out terrorists: "If I see someone come in and he's got a diaper on
his head and a fanbelt wrapped around the diaper on his head, that guy needs
to be pulled over and checked."
Cooksey later apologized, saying he was referring only to Osama bin Laden,
but clearly the way he described the offending headgear shows a lack of
turban savvy. In the picture of bin Laden posted on the FBI's Most Wanted
list, the fugitive Saudi millionaire is wearing a white cloth turban wrapped
in a circular, spiraling fashion.
This is not the type of headcovering that requires what Cooksey called a
"fan belt" - a thick black cord known to people in the Middle East as an
ekal. The ekal is used to hold on a kaffiyeh, the patterned headcovering
made famous by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Kaffiyehs are worn by men in Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the Arab Persian Gulf
states. They are rectangular pieces of cloth folded diagonally and draped
over the head. Technically, they're not even turbans.
The American tendency to link turbans with terrorism may stem from the Iran
hostage crisis, with its images of Ayatollah Khomeini and his black turban.
But in most of the Muslim world, the wearing of a turban symbolizes simply
religious or political power.
Many Muslim spiritual leaders wear a white turban wrapped around a spherical
or conical hat known as a kalansuwa.
The irony of the American focus on turbans in the wake of the terrorist
attacks is that, at least in this country, turbans are a very poor predictor
of a person's involvement in terrorist violence. None of the hijackers wore
turbans.
salapilot
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A few days ago there was an interview on TV with a muslim professor (not a citizen) at a Florida university who verbally strongly condemned the attacks. However, right afterwards an amature video tape showed the same guy at an islamic convention in Chicago, spewing out a tirade of hate and venom with waving fists that would make a KKKer blush, then took up donations for a terrorist front charity.
Condemnation of the attacks?? Talk is cheap. Actions are proof.
Condemnation of the attacks?? Talk is cheap. Actions are proof.
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As one having the great misfortune to be able to watch american television news, I find it no wonder, that there is are hostile feelings towards muslism.
Sure there is freedom of the press and all that in the U.S., but that means nothing when there is no balanced or critical reporting from the medias side. It has become a propaganda tool for the establishment. Demonize your enemy, and if the enemy is a bit difficult to spot, make up a new one that are easier to defeat and report on.
Noticed how Bin Laden have sort of slipped to the background, and it's now all about the Taliban.
Sure there is freedom of the press and all that in the U.S., but that means nothing when there is no balanced or critical reporting from the medias side. It has become a propaganda tool for the establishment. Demonize your enemy, and if the enemy is a bit difficult to spot, make up a new one that are easier to defeat and report on.
Noticed how Bin Laden have sort of slipped to the background, and it's now all about the Taliban.
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While deploring the tendency of humans under stress to resort to racism, ie allowing the very thin veneer of civilization to tear and uncover our teeth and claws, would it be imprudent to point out that the bombing of the Air India flight over the Atlantic and the Narita bomb that exploded and killed numerous bystanders on the same day was the work of Sikh extremists living in Canada and the UK (one of the accused is in jail in the UK for something else) who are now in the process of being prosecuted by the Canadian government. While one bad apple blah blah blah, the "...idiot clock that strikes thirteen..." taints all of a group who are identifyable by dress or religion or propensity to casually kill bystanders to atone for perceived unrelated injustices.
