Airport Security (Merged) - Effects on Crew/Staff
Join Date: May 2003
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Ok no problems. In which case Id agree, however, the managers probably dont really get the brunt of it, so for the managers to whinge at DfT theyd have to get a load of their security staff whinging at them... We will get fed up soon enough and start whinging no doubt, so maybe something will then be done :-). Maybe I'll raise the issue at work and see what sort of response I get. Probably shrugged shoulders but thats nothing new.
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OK, I have read enough of this rubbish now and feel I have to comment.
FWIW I am not aircrew but used to be an Aircraft Engineer at one of the London airports. I also know many BAA Security staff and know the crap that they, like ATCO1987, are being put through.
It is bad enough that the passengers, the people who pay your wages, have so much crap to wade through to board an aircraft without having some jumped up, hollier than thow muppet at the pointy end who thinks that because he is allowed up the front he is a god. At the end of the day, you are just the driver of the airbourne bus. Put up and shut up or shift out. The choice is yours.
Yes, you are in control of an explosive filled rocket that you could, if you were mad enough, use in the same way as the 9/11 attackers did without the need to break into the flightdeck. On the otherhand, your fellow crew member may not be as mad as you and you might have to render him out of the equation with some noxious liquid before he would allow you to point the aircraft down. I would imagine he/she would protest if you didn't!
So, just like the rest of the people who pay your wages, the people who sell you your newspaper, the security staff who do the checking, you will be restricted to the same criteria for searches and restrictions. This will not be "just for a little while", you will be subject to them for all time. Just because they are tighter now than they were when you started flying with Mr Wright, get used to it. Stop complaining and act like a profesional rather than the (sorry in advance for those that are not) overpaid, over ego'ed people that you are.
Times change, the job changes, the requirement and processes change. Not all for the better but you have to make the choice. Live with it or find another job. The choice is yours.
FWIW I am not aircrew but used to be an Aircraft Engineer at one of the London airports. I also know many BAA Security staff and know the crap that they, like ATCO1987, are being put through.It is bad enough that the passengers, the people who pay your wages, have so much crap to wade through to board an aircraft without having some jumped up, hollier than thow muppet at the pointy end who thinks that because he is allowed up the front he is a god. At the end of the day, you are just the driver of the airbourne bus. Put up and shut up or shift out. The choice is yours.
Yes, you are in control of an explosive filled rocket that you could, if you were mad enough, use in the same way as the 9/11 attackers did without the need to break into the flightdeck. On the otherhand, your fellow crew member may not be as mad as you and you might have to render him out of the equation with some noxious liquid before he would allow you to point the aircraft down. I would imagine he/she would protest if you didn't!
So, just like the rest of the people who pay your wages, the people who sell you your newspaper, the security staff who do the checking, you will be restricted to the same criteria for searches and restrictions. This will not be "just for a little while", you will be subject to them for all time. Just because they are tighter now than they were when you started flying with Mr Wright, get used to it. Stop complaining and act like a profesional rather than the (sorry in advance for those that are not) overpaid, over ego'ed people that you are.
Times change, the job changes, the requirement and processes change. Not all for the better but you have to make the choice. Live with it or find another job. The choice is yours.
bbbrown,
your ignorant rant (preceeded by clarification that you do not even have to pass airside on a daily basis) illustrates you complete lack of understanding re the logistical problems aircrew are having getting their bags through security.
You have shown that you are ill-informed re the problems and are not fit to comment sensibly.
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Time for this SLF to stick his head up above the parapet: If I, the paying customer, had been delayed for an hour because the pilots of my flight thought that they should not have to take their shoes off at the security checkpoint, when that was clearly a requirement, I would be furious with the pilots.
Would you want a surgeon to have a blazing row with someone minutes before he or she performed a delicate operation on you?
A lot of trust is placed in the two people flying the aircraft. Likewise the cabin crew looking after your safety. Likewise the engineers who maintain the aircraft. But when the sh*t hits the fan, it's those in the flight-deck who'll save your neck.
Best they carry out their duties without being wound up before departure.
Even though it clearly gives you pleasure to think about it.
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The End.
Reads like flogging a dead horse here mate!
So, in summary: preventing articles from being taken on board is simply a smoke-screen designed to appease the idiots of the world and to let politicians off easy. There is only one way to stop terrorists from blowing our aircraft to smithereens and that is to prevent them from coming on board, or from coming into contact with them in the first place.
The End.
---
Credits go here--->
and here--->
etc--->
So, in summary: preventing articles from being taken on board is simply a smoke-screen designed to appease the idiots of the world and to let politicians off easy. There is only one way to stop terrorists from blowing our aircraft to smithereens and that is to prevent them from coming on board, or from coming into contact with them in the first place.
The End.
---
Credits go here--->
and here--->
etc--->
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you would have every right to be p*55ed off with the crew globaliser, and you are right it was childish of the crew to act in this way, but dont you also see it as a warning that the crew were acting irrationally as in enuf is enuf, and they are now not as focused on the job in hand. can you imagine their mental state as they took the controls of a massive airliner loaded with people and fuel, not good. i would be more annoyed if they caused an incident because of this wouldnt you.
atco some good points so not brainless - comment retracted. you are 100%correct its not the bloke on the desk IT IS the airport managers failing to interpret the dft GUIDELINES and report back up the chain.
bbrown nice try but wrong on a number of points.
i dont want to see any us splitting on this so we should work together and start sorting out the muppets who impose these ridiculous rules, like i said they affect us all- be it the stressed hungry engineer at3am or the stressed out crew who then mistakenly wipe themselves and your family from the books.
i am not a whinger but these are the facts of life and the application of human factors.
if you want to attack pilots for their egoes etc then feel free its a free world isnt it. but to be able to cope with the job and succeed requires a certain type of personality and set of rare skills and it is this that produces the higher than normal egoes. human factors again. read the books.
my suggestion. lets all get together for a massive party then take the day off.
no atc no flying, no firemen no flying, no baggage handlers no flying, no cabin crew no flying, no engineers no flying, no pax no flying, no pilots no flying and last but by no means least no security no flying.
smile please
atco some good points so not brainless - comment retracted. you are 100%correct its not the bloke on the desk IT IS the airport managers failing to interpret the dft GUIDELINES and report back up the chain.
bbrown nice try but wrong on a number of points.
i dont want to see any us splitting on this so we should work together and start sorting out the muppets who impose these ridiculous rules, like i said they affect us all- be it the stressed hungry engineer at3am or the stressed out crew who then mistakenly wipe themselves and your family from the books.
i am not a whinger but these are the facts of life and the application of human factors.
if you want to attack pilots for their egoes etc then feel free its a free world isnt it. but to be able to cope with the job and succeed requires a certain type of personality and set of rare skills and it is this that produces the higher than normal egoes. human factors again. read the books.
my suggestion. lets all get together for a massive party then take the day off.
no atc no flying, no firemen no flying, no baggage handlers no flying, no cabin crew no flying, no engineers no flying, no pax no flying, no pilots no flying and last but by no means least no security no flying.
smile please
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Thank you winkle, nicely put.
My intention is not to cause trouble or fall out with anyone on the forum. I just wanted to give our side of events and try and compromise somewhere (perhaps Ive gone about it the wrong way in some words Ive used).
If I can do anything to help crew locally then I will, but chances are, as Ive said, that all I will receive is shrugged shoulders because thats management for you!
My intention is not to cause trouble or fall out with anyone on the forum. I just wanted to give our side of events and try and compromise somewhere (perhaps Ive gone about it the wrong way in some words Ive used).
If I can do anything to help crew locally then I will, but chances are, as Ive said, that all I will receive is shrugged shoulders because thats management for you!
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Security
You have shown that you are ill-informed re the problems and are not fit to comment sensibly
Many of you are missing the point.
Yes, the restrictions may be OTT.
Yes, Dft need to think again and it looks like they are.
Yes, all crew, passengers and staff should be subjected to the same checks on passing airside.
You are not above everyone else, you need checking just the same.
What you need to do is complain to your company about needing the toothpaste and reasonable food etc when airside and let them provide it if you cant get your own there.
It is not me with the chips on my shoulder, try looking at yourselves once in a while and realise that you are just the same as everone else.
bbrown1664,
I've explained it to you once!
"let them provide it "
Its still got to get airside you're missing the point again. Why don't you just worry about your problems and leave us on our forum to discuss ours?
I've explained it to you once!
"let them provide it "
Its still got to get airside you're missing the point again. Why don't you just worry about your problems and leave us on our forum to discuss ours?
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Many of you are missing the point
BBrown, buddy you are missing the point, we are not the same as everyone else, we are the ones responsible for the safe and efficient flight of up to 400 tonnes of aircraft 400 pax, and around 200,000 ltrs of flamable jet fuel
You are not above everyone else, you need checking just the same
It is not me with the chips on my shoulder, try looking at yourselves once in a while and realise that you are just the same as everone else
As security vetted, trained professionals, flightcrew as group are part of the solution, not the problem.
What is unhelpful however is the armchair "expert" who thinks that their opinion is valid simply because they "know" someones sisters cousins aunties nephew who makes the tea for BAA employees.
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Well, I HAVE written to the dft and this is the answer I have received today:
Dear Captain XYZ,
Thanks for your note and I appreciate the issues you raise. All I can say at this stage is that we are working hard, with representatives from industry, to see how the current measures can be adjusted in light of information about the threat (still prevailing at a high level) and in light of operational experience.
This review will include a close look at the measures that impact on operating crew. Please be assured that this is not about a lack of trust in the flight crew community. We are simply trying to work in difficult circumstances to arrive at a set of measures that deal with the threat in a consistent and effective way while also enabling the operation and retaining the support of staff such as yourself.
Your feedback is helpful and appreciated.
With best regards,
David.
David Sterland
Head of Aviation Security Compliance
Transport Security & Contingencies Directorate,
Department for Transport,
5th Floor, Zone 13,
Southside,
105 Victoria Street,
London SW1E 6DT.
[email protected]
Telephone: + 44 (0) 207 944 2592
Fax: + 44 (0) 207 944 2172
Thanks for your note and I appreciate the issues you raise. All I can say at this stage is that we are working hard, with representatives from industry, to see how the current measures can be adjusted in light of information about the threat (still prevailing at a high level) and in light of operational experience.
This review will include a close look at the measures that impact on operating crew. Please be assured that this is not about a lack of trust in the flight crew community. We are simply trying to work in difficult circumstances to arrive at a set of measures that deal with the threat in a consistent and effective way while also enabling the operation and retaining the support of staff such as yourself.
Your feedback is helpful and appreciated.
With best regards,
David.
David Sterland
Head of Aviation Security Compliance
Transport Security & Contingencies Directorate,
Department for Transport,
5th Floor, Zone 13,
Southside,
105 Victoria Street,
London SW1E 6DT.
[email protected]
Telephone: + 44 (0) 207 944 2592
Fax: + 44 (0) 207 944 2172
If a securityman lets you through with a leatherman, it is because he wishes so. A leatherman is one of THE most obvious things to spot on an x-ray machine.
You know, I've grown used to the new procedures. They do not make sense, but hey, I adapt. What embarasses me is every time one of my fellow aviators thinks he has to make some wisecrack comment with the socalled 'jobsworth'.
Come on, grow up, let BALPA deal with it on the level where it matters.
You know, I've grown used to the new procedures. They do not make sense, but hey, I adapt. What embarasses me is every time one of my fellow aviators thinks he has to make some wisecrack comment with the socalled 'jobsworth'.
Come on, grow up, let BALPA deal with it on the level where it matters.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Globaliser - you've missed the point of all this. Confrontation, with the resulting stress and anxiety just before preparing a large passenger airliner for departure, leads to mistakes. Those mistakes enter the error chain. Maybe, because they're still fuming about the tw@ts in security, the pilots miss the 'firebreak' that's been created to keep you and your fellow passengers alive.
The restrictions may be stupid, they may wind flight crew up in an undesirable way, and they may need changing - perhaps quickly.
But at MNL that day, the crew were faced with a fait accompli. The restrictions were there. The aggravation was there. Nothing they did that day was going to change anything that day. So they had a choice - they could either go along with what they had to go along with, or they could fight screeners who had no authority to change the rules that they had been told to adopt.
In those circumstances, I would much rather that the crew had themselves decided to avoid any confrontation, to keep calm and to just get on with a sad fact of that day's life. Getting angry or upset (if they did) was not going to change anything - in fact, if anything it would have made their mental state worse.
And most of all, I would rather that they did not delay the flight however understandably unhappy they might have been that they had to go through the procedure.
Globaliser,
I agree with what you say. And the overwhelming majority of crew are doing exactly as you suggest.
But, for some, there comes a time when confronted with this mindnumbing stupidity for the millionth time to say: "I'm Mad As Hell and I'm Not Going to Take it Anymore"
In those circumstances, I would much rather that the crew had themselves decided to avoid any confrontation, to keep calm and to just get on with a sad fact of that day's life. Getting angry or upset (if they did) was not going to change anything - in fact, if anything it would have made their mental state worse.
But, for some, there comes a time when confronted with this mindnumbing stupidity for the millionth time to say: "I'm Mad As Hell and I'm Not Going to Take it Anymore"
Last edited by Lord Lucan; 14th Sep 2006 at 13:03.
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I have to agree with globaliser. If anyone was responsible for the crew being wound up before embarking on the flight it is the crew themselves. Arguing with the people on the front line is always going to be a no-win situation. Better to keep a calm head and comply at the time, and raise the matter in a more appropriate manner through the correct channels at a more appropriate time.
And I must admit I find all this nonsense about "why do they take my toothpaste away when I have an axe in the cockpit" quite staggering. Are people really that naive that they think an airside pass means the person carrying it does not need to be searched? At the security point everyone needs to be treated the same regardless of if they have pointy hats and passes or not. And as someone else mentioned, it's important that there are seen to be no exemptions so that the message gets across that there are no loopholes to be exploited (even though we all know there are others in the system)
And I must admit I find all this nonsense about "why do they take my toothpaste away when I have an axe in the cockpit" quite staggering. Are people really that naive that they think an airside pass means the person carrying it does not need to be searched? At the security point everyone needs to be treated the same regardless of if they have pointy hats and passes or not. And as someone else mentioned, it's important that there are seen to be no exemptions so that the message gets across that there are no loopholes to be exploited (even though we all know there are others in the system)
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Pilot refuses shoe search
Well then what's it to be?
A. Hurrah for the brave pilots exposing the ridiculous 'security' measures for what they are
or
B. Boo to the pilots, thinking they're better than everyone else.
... you decide
(from www.breakingnews.ie)
Pilot refuses shoe search*
14/09/2006 - 3:21:33 PM
A Qantas Airways flight to Australia was delayed after two of its pilots refused to remove their shoes as part of Manila airport’s anti-terrorism measures, prompting the airline to suspend one of them, officials said today.
The pilots on the Manila-Sydney flight on Tuesday evening refused to comply with the security regulation, said chief superintendent Andres Caro, head of the police Aviation Security Group.
“They were arguing that they were the pilots of the plane and they are not a threat. But who knows the face of a terrorist?” Caro said.
“We are implementing what is being implemented consistently for everybody.”
A. Hurrah for the brave pilots exposing the ridiculous 'security' measures for what they are
or
B. Boo to the pilots, thinking they're better than everyone else.
... you decide
(from www.breakingnews.ie)
Pilot refuses shoe search*
14/09/2006 - 3:21:33 PM
A Qantas Airways flight to Australia was delayed after two of its pilots refused to remove their shoes as part of Manila airport’s anti-terrorism measures, prompting the airline to suspend one of them, officials said today.
The pilots on the Manila-Sydney flight on Tuesday evening refused to comply with the security regulation, said chief superintendent Andres Caro, head of the police Aviation Security Group.
“They were arguing that they were the pilots of the plane and they are not a threat. But who knows the face of a terrorist?” Caro said.
“We are implementing what is being implemented consistently for everybody.”
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If we want to bring the aircraft down. we'll do that ourselves.... We've got a woppin big axe on the flightdeck.... and oh.. we can reach the controls... These security measures for flightdeck are such a F*cking waste of time....
Good on the chap.....
Good on the chap.....