Slots, Slots and more Slots...
Guest
Posts: n/a
Slots, Slots and more Slots...
I recently had an irate AMM pilot who seemed to think that the 5mins before and 10 mins after are for the pilots benefit.
The pilot in question called for push/start two minutes after his slot time. When told that there was no way that he would make his slot as there was a stream of inbounds and two at the hold he said that he could get to the hold in time and if we could not clear him for take off in his slot it was our problem.
We understand (and have verified) that the slot window is for ATC benefit and that planes should be at the hold in time for the slot time and the 15 min window is for us to get you away depending on traffic.
Is this a common understanding by pilots or was he just having a bad day?
Answers please!!!
The pilot in question called for push/start two minutes after his slot time. When told that there was no way that he would make his slot as there was a stream of inbounds and two at the hold he said that he could get to the hold in time and if we could not clear him for take off in his slot it was our problem.
We understand (and have verified) that the slot window is for ATC benefit and that planes should be at the hold in time for the slot time and the 15 min window is for us to get you away depending on traffic.
Is this a common understanding by pilots or was he just having a bad day?
Answers please!!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
IA, I always operate on the principle that there is just that tolerance built-in to a slot. Otherwise, our entire European ATC system would grind to a halt. After all, we are not operating +/-15 minute procedural spacing, but have the vast multitude of radar tools available to us here, or so we are told.
So you need us there, ready to go at that very moment in time, then? Not before and not after? I think slack needs to be applied here; try getting shell-suits/fuel/slot/ flight-plan all to combine in that merry-dance that is aviation; if no-one will give a tolerance, then everything grinds to a halt.
Now, I can understand grumbling at manipulation of the extremes, but I won't take the piss, if I don't realistically consider I can make that window then I let you know. But if I am seriously hassled, yet still can make it, then it really hurts and does no-one any good to have a slot vanish into the Wild Blue when we could still theoretically make it. That is probably why you get the vibes from the flight-crew... we ALWAYS try to get the paying public away on or close to time, and anything that appears to conspire against us is not welcomed. Hence the negative vibes, not clever, not professional, but I can empathise.
And yes, I DO know that we are playing for the same team, more so than our management are.
Alien
[This message has been edited by Alien Shores (edited 07 May 2001).]
So you need us there, ready to go at that very moment in time, then? Not before and not after? I think slack needs to be applied here; try getting shell-suits/fuel/slot/ flight-plan all to combine in that merry-dance that is aviation; if no-one will give a tolerance, then everything grinds to a halt.
Now, I can understand grumbling at manipulation of the extremes, but I won't take the piss, if I don't realistically consider I can make that window then I let you know. But if I am seriously hassled, yet still can make it, then it really hurts and does no-one any good to have a slot vanish into the Wild Blue when we could still theoretically make it. That is probably why you get the vibes from the flight-crew... we ALWAYS try to get the paying public away on or close to time, and anything that appears to conspire against us is not welcomed. Hence the negative vibes, not clever, not professional, but I can empathise.
And yes, I DO know that we are playing for the same team, more so than our management are.
Alien
[This message has been edited by Alien Shores (edited 07 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
AS,
As an ATSA at EGCC who works the DSM (Departure Slot Monitor) and use the phone to Flow, I can assure you that IF you are on stand 212R and EGCC is on either dual Westerlies (24L) or single Easterlies (06L) and you call for start at minus 10mins to slot ALL the team,(all 7 of us)will honestly try to get you on your (as you say) merry way. But if you are number 3 or even higher in call order, that is when ATC get "huffy" at "It's MY 15mins tolerance"
As has been said, come and visit
As an ATSA at EGCC who works the DSM (Departure Slot Monitor) and use the phone to Flow, I can assure you that IF you are on stand 212R and EGCC is on either dual Westerlies (24L) or single Easterlies (06L) and you call for start at minus 10mins to slot ALL the team,(all 7 of us)will honestly try to get you on your (as you say) merry way. But if you are number 3 or even higher in call order, that is when ATC get "huffy" at "It's MY 15mins tolerance"
As has been said, come and visit
Guest
Posts: n/a
alien, thanks for the answer, if we are quiet obviously we would have probably pushed him as he would have got away but he just seemed to think it was his god given right to push when he wanted - we can call Scottish to see if we can get "an extra few minutes" but some pilots now seem to think that this is always going to happen and it doesn't!
We will always try our very best for you but it is annoying when a pilot seems to think that he can do what he wants and have to sort it out. Especially when this invoved lenghtly r/t when we are busy - don't think it would have happened at a larger airfield.
As i said, think he was having a bad day!
We will always try our very best for you but it is annoying when a pilot seems to think that he can do what he wants and have to sort it out. Especially when this invoved lenghtly r/t when we are busy - don't think it would have happened at a larger airfield.
As i said, think he was having a bad day!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think there was an AIC or similar about this a while ago, stating that the CTOT WAS TO BE met by the aircraft, no +10/-5. That is, as above, for ATC.
It is a fact of life that companys must strive normally to push 20 before CTOT at big/busy airports to allow for delays/queues.
If you ask politely, however, when you 'miss', I have always found LGW ATC will do their best, but there is no point in 'demanding' something that is not yours!
It is a fact of life that companys must strive normally to push 20 before CTOT at big/busy airports to allow for delays/queues.
If you ask politely, however, when you 'miss', I have always found LGW ATC will do their best, but there is no point in 'demanding' something that is not yours!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Flight Dispatcher/Ops controller here:
After 10 years, still trying to make pilots aware that "slot" means take-off and not off-block...but they assume that talking friendly to the ATC'ers they will allow them to leave at the time pilots want...
the -5+10 story is a window ATC might allow, but it's not automatically approved...
Ciao
Paolo
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dunno why we need two threads on the same topic so closing this one. See http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/013780.html for the original thread.
------------------
Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork
------------------
Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork
