Hot flight
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I was stuck on the tarmac, mid aftrnoon on Rhodes last month with no air con whilst on the ground. It was a bloody nightmare. After nearly 50 minutes with the doors shut the body heat of hundreds of passengers and crew, plus the unforgiving greek sun beating down , it was becoming unbearable . People were becoming panicky and irritiable and the cabin crew were rushing around trying to get cold water into everyone whilst fielding the ever increasing demands from passengers that something needed to be done. After just over an hour someone made the decision to open the doors (not sure why they didnt do this earlier ) the relief was immense as we got some air into the cabin. Anyway I`m concerened now that this may happen to me again, is there anything I can do to avoid this (as once you are in there you really are powerless) Can I ask if the air con is working before boarding and if its not, refuse to get on till the last minute or anything other suggestions? Sorry for rambling on but felt pretty traumatised by the experience and for the well being of my two young boys travelling with me.
Thanks for Listening
Thanks for Listening
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Then they started one engine at the gate, pushed the plane back and took it to a holding pad to get air flowing.
Air conditioning units getting very hot and heating the fuel above to produce a bad combination of fumes/fuel?
Don't know the 777 systems but just wondering...
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Perrin
Reminds me me of when we used to forget about a A/C in Riyadh with Saudia for a few days then bring it to the gate when it was heat soaked as we called it, had to run packs with apu; on ground a/c as well. The seats,flooring everything just retained the heat, big delays, would take hours before even the brave crew would start their checks.
Keep them flying boys!!!!!!!!
Keep them flying boys!!!!!!!!
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cool
Hi guys
Perhaps i am a little slow but in these extreme circumstances whats wrong with a deluge of nice cool water..an airport crash truck hooked up t6 a fire hydrant can deliver huge quantities ...
Back in the seventies on more than one occasion we used the airport fire service to hose down the control tower where i worked. Dumping large quantities on the roof and visual control room windows brought rapid relief when VCR temps were rising 100 plus..we had one ceiling fan and the only window that could open was the emergency exit...had to be very careful to ensure it was closed and that no staff on breaks were sunbathing on the roof.before letting the fire crews loose
just a thought
PPRuDe
Perhaps i am a little slow but in these extreme circumstances whats wrong with a deluge of nice cool water..an airport crash truck hooked up t6 a fire hydrant can deliver huge quantities ...
Back in the seventies on more than one occasion we used the airport fire service to hose down the control tower where i worked. Dumping large quantities on the roof and visual control room windows brought rapid relief when VCR temps were rising 100 plus..we had one ceiling fan and the only window that could open was the emergency exit...had to be very careful to ensure it was closed and that no staff on breaks were sunbathing on the roof.before letting the fire crews loose
just a thought
PPRuDe
Last edited by PPRuDe; 8th Aug 2006 at 17:35. Reason: typo
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Lets face facts here folks.
The Commander of the flight really has no authority until the doors are closed, and push back is commenced, in spite of what some junior First Officers, CC or outsiders might think.
IE: the groung staff have this requirement while the doors are open, and that is where the fault lies.
The Captain (or indeed the First Officer or CC) can huff and puff all they like, but those are the facts.
If, OTOH, the Captain was to say....I'm not taking it until its cooled off inside... then he might well have some tall explaining to do to airline management, union or no union, provided of course, that the aeroplane was otherwise serviceable according to the MEL.
In short, like it or lump it.
The Commander of the flight really has no authority until the doors are closed, and push back is commenced, in spite of what some junior First Officers, CC or outsiders might think.
IE: the groung staff have this requirement while the doors are open, and that is where the fault lies.
The Captain (or indeed the First Officer or CC) can huff and puff all they like, but those are the facts.
If, OTOH, the Captain was to say....I'm not taking it until its cooled off inside... then he might well have some tall explaining to do to airline management, union or no union, provided of course, that the aeroplane was otherwise serviceable according to the MEL.
In short, like it or lump it.
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lets face more facts..
Obviously the Capt and his F/O had either blindly follow the rules, or never before been without APU in a sunny and hot weather,
we do not even need to mention Riyadh or Death Valley.
Their initial solution to start engine first was partially good, but why they did not open as many service doors as possible, with F/A-s to guard them.
A but what about the "rules.." ?
Yes there are rules and there is a common sense too.
Open few doors would have and did have much more effect than any packs or any other tricks...
we do not even need to mention Riyadh or Death Valley.
Their initial solution to start engine first was partially good, but why they did not open as many service doors as possible, with F/A-s to guard them.
A but what about the "rules.." ?
Yes there are rules and there is a common sense too.
Open few doors would have and did have much more effect than any packs or any other tricks...
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In short, like it or lump it.
Bollocks. I've refused hot planes at two of my three 121 airlines. One of them was a CARGO PLANE. And I'm still employed.
I live and work part-time on a farm in South Alabama, and know more than a little about heat-stroke (the clock says 95 F right now). I was preflighting one of Fred's up in MEM in August last year, 12 noon, temp about 96, zero APU, zero ground air carts. I stripped to my waist and began my prep. After 25 minutes, and despite consuming two quarts of water, I stopped perspiring and got real light-headed. Called GOC and told them I was done. Next time I won't take my shirt off - why delay the inevitable.
The other was a pax EMB-120. I didn't even go out to it (ATL in the summer). They found a non-union instructor ('bout like you 411) who took it anyway. The copilot told me they took off even their T-shirts in the cockpit. Guess their pax all survived.
Some of these posts make me sick. Imagine if someone's grandma had died from heatstroke. That captain would be in jail today. GROW A PAIR. GATE AGENTS CAN'T GET VIOLATED.
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Catx
The easiest thing to do is to simply ask the pilots if the air conditioning is working. Or ask the Flight Attendents.
Hi Captain, is the AC working and is the cabin cool? I am concerned for my health and if there is a problem I would like to know now please.
--
411
According to the flight ops manual at my airline the captain is in command of the aircraft including all pre flight ops including boarding. Perhaps my nice UNION got that in the FOM.
So, contrary to what YOU think, the captain can (as another poster indicated) grow a PAIR and do something.
j
The easiest thing to do is to simply ask the pilots if the air conditioning is working. Or ask the Flight Attendents.
Hi Captain, is the AC working and is the cabin cool? I am concerned for my health and if there is a problem I would like to know now please.
--
411
According to the flight ops manual at my airline the captain is in command of the aircraft including all pre flight ops including boarding. Perhaps my nice UNION got that in the FOM.
So, contrary to what YOU think, the captain can (as another poster indicated) grow a PAIR and do something.
j
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Perhaps an expert could comment on what would happen to the oxygen levels without the air flowing?
If the cabin of a widebody is hot before pax boarding it will get a lot hotter when 200+ pax get in there with their 60W each.
Psychophysiological entity
It has been mentioned that the color of the aircraft was to blame in part. As an Englishman in Texas, I would only buy a car that was silver or white. It seems odd, that with so many years of experience, any operator would not have the top surface an appropriate color and polish.
The comment about spraying with water...it's something that I have never considered. Intriguing. Does anyone do this?
The comment about spraying with water...it's something that I have never considered. Intriguing. Does anyone do this?
Psychophysiological entity
Originally Posted by overstress
If the cabin of a widebody is hot before pax boarding it will get a lot hotter when 200+ pax get in there with their 60W each.
Paxing All Over The World
As we don't know the details, may I offer a [I]possible[I] comparison ... three years ago yesterday (8th August 2003) I was booked on Concorde LHR~JFK.
It was one of the hottest days on record for the UK, the next day was an all time record of (IIRC) 100F. The departure times was late afternoon and the machine was good and hot. This gave a particular difficulty for the crew as Concorde had no APU. Due to weight limitations, she was designed for ground Air Con only. There was cart hooked up but the giant flexible tube carrying the cooled air had to snake across the ground to reach the machine and it was not insulated.
However, there was a technical fault so they kept us in the lounge for as long as possible. After boarding, it was very hot even WITH the ground air cart running. Then the tech delay extended ...
The Captain explained to us that the problem was expected to be fixed in minutes but, as these things can turn out, it was half an hour. He apologised that it was taking so long and that to get us off almost invited that the problem would be fixed as soon as we had done so.
Almost everyone was patient as the sweat streamed off us, some started to complain. I cannot recall how long we were in that situation but about 45 minutes, I should say. Crew were brilliant and I could understand their approach when the engineers are saying (in effect) "This will be fixed in just a minute" and then it wasn't.
As to this event under discussion, we can only hope that the carrier and ground staff learnt a big lesson.
It was one of the hottest days on record for the UK, the next day was an all time record of (IIRC) 100F. The departure times was late afternoon and the machine was good and hot. This gave a particular difficulty for the crew as Concorde had no APU. Due to weight limitations, she was designed for ground Air Con only. There was cart hooked up but the giant flexible tube carrying the cooled air had to snake across the ground to reach the machine and it was not insulated.
However, there was a technical fault so they kept us in the lounge for as long as possible. After boarding, it was very hot even WITH the ground air cart running. Then the tech delay extended ...
The Captain explained to us that the problem was expected to be fixed in minutes but, as these things can turn out, it was half an hour. He apologised that it was taking so long and that to get us off almost invited that the problem would be fixed as soon as we had done so.
Almost everyone was patient as the sweat streamed off us, some started to complain. I cannot recall how long we were in that situation but about 45 minutes, I should say. Crew were brilliant and I could understand their approach when the engineers are saying (in effect) "This will be fixed in just a minute" and then it wasn't.
As to this event under discussion, we can only hope that the carrier and ground staff learnt a big lesson.
Psychophysiological entity
Thinking about the crew's ability to make decisions on the ground takes me back to me memoirs.
It's funny to read above about the captain's authority etc.. In the late 60s, I was a young first officer on a broken 1-11 in Seville. 39c and a broken air control valve. It popped the CB on ‘start' so no start on the stb. engine. I put on my Bicycle Repairman's outfit, and by some fluke detected a short to ground in the control solenoid in the stub-wing. It's strange how much of an airliner you can take apart with a Swiss army knife. I telexed the serial number of the entire valve to Luton, and in about four hours the part (and three engineers) were with us. Temp now 41c. But, true to form, our run of bad luck was still with us. The part's model was just a teeeeenzy bit wrong. ie, it was completely different. (It would have fitted a very colourful aircraft BTW.)
Things were getting tricky, the airport manager wanted to kick our pax out of the lounge as his (Spanish upper-class business type) passengers were arriving. He was being a total B
d. But then the engineers threw me a wobbler. Too hot, we're not working on that!!! We want to go to an hotel. This was the captain's domain. He organized the other aircraft to be re-scheduled and take our pax. Good move, but that left us cooking, and nowhere to go. No hotels no lounge...Back to me.
Finally the engineers believed me, there was nowhere to go. I got them organized to hold the valve open with a very long extension bar. I kept the thing disconnected as long as I could, then reinstated the valve by a big plug. The panel had to be replaced after the engine was running. It took three blokes to stop the torque!
When we got on board, all the O2 had gone. Mmmm, and they don't believe in Sod's law. We came all the way back at 8,000 feet.
What would folk think about the use of such initiative these days? Or is it irrelevant because aviation has improved so much?
It's funny to read above about the captain's authority etc.. In the late 60s, I was a young first officer on a broken 1-11 in Seville. 39c and a broken air control valve. It popped the CB on ‘start' so no start on the stb. engine. I put on my Bicycle Repairman's outfit, and by some fluke detected a short to ground in the control solenoid in the stub-wing. It's strange how much of an airliner you can take apart with a Swiss army knife. I telexed the serial number of the entire valve to Luton, and in about four hours the part (and three engineers) were with us. Temp now 41c. But, true to form, our run of bad luck was still with us. The part's model was just a teeeeenzy bit wrong. ie, it was completely different. (It would have fitted a very colourful aircraft BTW.)
Things were getting tricky, the airport manager wanted to kick our pax out of the lounge as his (Spanish upper-class business type) passengers were arriving. He was being a total B
d. But then the engineers threw me a wobbler. Too hot, we're not working on that!!! We want to go to an hotel. This was the captain's domain. He organized the other aircraft to be re-scheduled and take our pax. Good move, but that left us cooking, and nowhere to go. No hotels no lounge...Back to me.Finally the engineers believed me, there was nowhere to go. I got them organized to hold the valve open with a very long extension bar. I kept the thing disconnected as long as I could, then reinstated the valve by a big plug. The panel had to be replaced after the engine was running. It took three blokes to stop the torque!
When we got on board, all the O2 had gone. Mmmm, and they don't believe in Sod's law. We came all the way back at 8,000 feet.
What would folk think about the use of such initiative these days? Or is it irrelevant because aviation has improved so much?
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No doubt, Loose rivets, pilots nowadays would call their union rep, for some 'advice'.
I really have to laugh at some of the newer guys at the pointy end.
Apparently, they truly believe that their pilot union will come to bat for them, no matter what.
Hmmm, the ex-pilots at EAL, Braniff, PanAm, TWA...(the list goes on and on) and especially with the pension difficulties and pay give-backs, the union, be it ALPO, or indeed any other, just takes a back seat in todays low cost, cut-throat airline environment.
I really have to laugh at some of the newer guys at the pointy end.
Apparently, they truly believe that their pilot union will come to bat for them, no matter what.
Hmmm, the ex-pilots at EAL, Braniff, PanAm, TWA...(the list goes on and on) and especially with the pension difficulties and pay give-backs, the union, be it ALPO, or indeed any other, just takes a back seat in todays low cost, cut-throat airline environment.
411A: I had begun to taxi that hot and humid plane back to the gate. The Station Manager would have written me up for it, but because the rampers had not plugged in the cooling hose when the plane first arrived-maybe due to a lack of leadership or the Station Mgr. did not want to lease an extra tug from another airline (cost factors?)-I was willing to take that chance. And I will continue to use my limited authority in the future, as necessary, even before the passenger boarding takes place (as happened in CLT last week), whether to delay boarding or to increase the Dispatch fuel load etc (our company now allows lower vis. before an alternate airport is required. Why?..the high cost of fuel).
As Captain, I refuse to allow the company's lack of leadership and indifference towards its passengers (costs are priority) and staff, to erode passenger and crew comfort to unacceptable levels, and am willing to face the consequences. The folks on the Airbus and 757 with the better air output and recirc. fans have fewer problems-unless the APU air is on MEL and the ground crew yanks out the cooling hose long before the engine start cart is ready. This almost happened to us three days ago and as it is fairly uncommon, even the experienced ground crew were a bit confused about how to coordinate all of this, but after opening the escape window and clarifying the need for close coordination (no carts full of last minute bags to be loaded etc), did a really good job.
When both engines and the APU can not cool a plane, there is a real problem and I will find a solution-whatever it takes.
How about the other Captains in PpruneLand?
My company's indifference and $elf-centered
goals are directly reflected by the ranking in the "JD Power" Business surveys, if you can describe it as "ranking". As the pretty, junge blond lady says in one of the three "Unpimp your Auto" VW ads on the Internet, "It's definitely Sucking". Jaaa...
JonDC9: The highly-motivated Chief Pilot, the friendliest and best one I've ever encountered or heard about, is at our (by far) smallest hub and crew base. He called my FO's cell phone at another hub to thank me for volunteering to fly an extra turn-around at the end of a previous trip, unfortunately for which no available FO was found, whether as a block-holder or reserve. Our previous Chief Pilot was alright, but his main focus was on whether pilots wore their hats etc. One of our FOs, a retired Air Force guy, noticed how this crewbase did a much higher share of weekend flying, and told the former Chief Pilot to get his head out of his a&&, or words to that effect.
As Captain, I refuse to allow the company's lack of leadership and indifference towards its passengers (costs are priority) and staff, to erode passenger and crew comfort to unacceptable levels, and am willing to face the consequences. The folks on the Airbus and 757 with the better air output and recirc. fans have fewer problems-unless the APU air is on MEL and the ground crew yanks out the cooling hose long before the engine start cart is ready. This almost happened to us three days ago and as it is fairly uncommon, even the experienced ground crew were a bit confused about how to coordinate all of this, but after opening the escape window and clarifying the need for close coordination (no carts full of last minute bags to be loaded etc), did a really good job.
When both engines and the APU can not cool a plane, there is a real problem and I will find a solution-whatever it takes.
How about the other Captains in PpruneLand?
My company's indifference and $elf-centered
goals are directly reflected by the ranking in the "JD Power" Business surveys, if you can describe it as "ranking". As the pretty, junge blond lady says in one of the three "Unpimp your Auto" VW ads on the Internet, "It's definitely Sucking". Jaaa...JonDC9: The highly-motivated Chief Pilot, the friendliest and best one I've ever encountered or heard about, is at our (by far) smallest hub and crew base. He called my FO's cell phone at another hub to thank me for volunteering to fly an extra turn-around at the end of a previous trip, unfortunately for which no available FO was found, whether as a block-holder or reserve. Our previous Chief Pilot was alright, but his main focus was on whether pilots wore their hats etc. One of our FOs, a retired Air Force guy, noticed how this crewbase did a much higher share of weekend flying, and told the former Chief Pilot to get his head out of his a&&, or words to that effect.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 10th Aug 2006 at 06:32.
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Well now, Ignition Override, you sound a bit more level headed than some.
Actually 'managing' an undesirable situation is surely better than the Commanders who simply stick their nose well above ground effect, and refuse to do much of anything except shine their brass bars.
Station managers have a responsibility to see that their stations are run in a satisfactory manner.
All too often however, some have 'higher' connections in the company so can let their stations performance slide, without fear of admonation.
These are the folks who truly need the kick in the rear end.
Actually 'managing' an undesirable situation is surely better than the Commanders who simply stick their nose well above ground effect, and refuse to do much of anything except shine their brass bars.
Station managers have a responsibility to see that their stations are run in a satisfactory manner.
All too often however, some have 'higher' connections in the company so can let their stations performance slide, without fear of admonation.
These are the folks who truly need the kick in the rear end.