Sen. John McCain - Major A$$hole
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Sen. John McCain - Major A$$hole
This dip**** has a major hard on for pilots and their ability to eventually make decent money.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHN McCAIN
CHAIRMAN SENATE COMMITTEE ON
COMMERCE, SCIENCE AND TRANSPORTATION
FULL COMMITTEE HEARING
ON THE STATUS OF LABOR ISSUES IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY
APRIL 25, 2001
We are all aware of the numerous problems facing the aviation industry.
Congestion, delays, and modernization of air traffic control are all issues
that seem to rise to the forefront to be addressed again and again. This
Committee, industry, the regulatory agencies and others have redoubled their
efforts to address these serious problems.
Recently, however, a new problem has risen, creating further havoc in our
system. While labor negotiations in the airline industry have been ongoing
for years, things have begun to worsen. The trend towards larger airlines
has given unions greater leverage which appears to have contributed to a
mind set that views any work stoppage as legitimate. Normally even
acrimonious labor negotiations are a part of the negotiating process with
both sides using what leverage is available to them to reach the best deal.
However, times have changed; these acrimonious negotiations now adversely
affect the American people.
Let me say from the outset that I have no problem with the right to strike.
Strikes are a legal remedy available under applicable labor statutes.
Recently, however, courts have found more and more that labor unions in the
airline industry have engaged in concerted illegal job actions. These
courts have issued temporary restraining orders and injunctions prohibiting
such actions. In recent months, United, American, Northwest, and Delta have
obtained court ordered relief from these alleged illegal job actions. In
American's case, the court fined American's pilots over $45 million for not
adhering to the injunction.
These actions have affected millions of consumers. Middle America has been
stranded time and time again as a result of this illegal union activity.
According to published reports, last year, United cancelled over 23,000
flights as a result of its pilots' refusal to fly overtime, destroying
carefully planned vacations and business trips. Northwest and Delta
cancelled thousands of flights preemptively over the holiday seasons to
combat alleged mechanic slowdowns and failure to fly overtime by pilots,
respectively. The pilots' sickout at American in 1999 left thousands of
people stranded, some of which have banded together to sue the pilots for
damages.
In this day and age, a job action at a major airline can have a catastrophic
effect on the aviation system and the consumer. The rest of the system
would have a difficult time absorbing the excess passengers and the system
could come to a standstill. While management and labor are affected by
this, both parties have contingencies planned in the event of a job action.
The consumer is the one most affected by this increase in labor actions. It
is family flying across country for their vacation, the daughter coming home
from college, and the son going to visit a sick parent who can not reach
their destinations because the unions have taken matters into their own
hands. In the case of pilots, these are people who, according to industry,
on average make $140,000 while working less than 80 hours a month. At the
same time, according to the most recent data in 1999,the average per capita
income was $21,281.
The last two pilot contract negotiations, United and Delta, both of which
had alleged job actions with far reaching effects on the consumer, resulted
in a pay scale where, by the end of the contract, the senior pilots will
make over $280,000 in base pay with the ability to make one-third more for
voluntarily flying 25 more hours a month. Not only should the consumer not
have to suffer as a result of this avarice, but many analysts are concerned
that with labor costs rising so high, airlines will not be able to survive
economically or will at least put themselves in a hole for years to come.
Labor costs for an airline are now projected to be over 33% of its fixed
costs.
Many people argue that management has a choice, but in reality, the choice
is to give in to higher salary demands that a company may not be able to
afford or face a debilitating strike that may cripple the airline and force
it out of business. I don't believe that anyone would argue that is a
choice.
We have convened this hearing to look at these issues. Although this
subject is one that can be very divisive along party lines, I have received
complaints from both sides of the aisle about the current situation. I
welcome the witnesses today and look forward to a lively and spirited
debate.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHN McCAIN
CHAIRMAN SENATE COMMITTEE ON
COMMERCE, SCIENCE AND TRANSPORTATION
FULL COMMITTEE HEARING
ON THE STATUS OF LABOR ISSUES IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY
APRIL 25, 2001
We are all aware of the numerous problems facing the aviation industry.
Congestion, delays, and modernization of air traffic control are all issues
that seem to rise to the forefront to be addressed again and again. This
Committee, industry, the regulatory agencies and others have redoubled their
efforts to address these serious problems.
Recently, however, a new problem has risen, creating further havoc in our
system. While labor negotiations in the airline industry have been ongoing
for years, things have begun to worsen. The trend towards larger airlines
has given unions greater leverage which appears to have contributed to a
mind set that views any work stoppage as legitimate. Normally even
acrimonious labor negotiations are a part of the negotiating process with
both sides using what leverage is available to them to reach the best deal.
However, times have changed; these acrimonious negotiations now adversely
affect the American people.
Let me say from the outset that I have no problem with the right to strike.
Strikes are a legal remedy available under applicable labor statutes.
Recently, however, courts have found more and more that labor unions in the
airline industry have engaged in concerted illegal job actions. These
courts have issued temporary restraining orders and injunctions prohibiting
such actions. In recent months, United, American, Northwest, and Delta have
obtained court ordered relief from these alleged illegal job actions. In
American's case, the court fined American's pilots over $45 million for not
adhering to the injunction.
These actions have affected millions of consumers. Middle America has been
stranded time and time again as a result of this illegal union activity.
According to published reports, last year, United cancelled over 23,000
flights as a result of its pilots' refusal to fly overtime, destroying
carefully planned vacations and business trips. Northwest and Delta
cancelled thousands of flights preemptively over the holiday seasons to
combat alleged mechanic slowdowns and failure to fly overtime by pilots,
respectively. The pilots' sickout at American in 1999 left thousands of
people stranded, some of which have banded together to sue the pilots for
damages.
In this day and age, a job action at a major airline can have a catastrophic
effect on the aviation system and the consumer. The rest of the system
would have a difficult time absorbing the excess passengers and the system
could come to a standstill. While management and labor are affected by
this, both parties have contingencies planned in the event of a job action.
The consumer is the one most affected by this increase in labor actions. It
is family flying across country for their vacation, the daughter coming home
from college, and the son going to visit a sick parent who can not reach
their destinations because the unions have taken matters into their own
hands. In the case of pilots, these are people who, according to industry,
on average make $140,000 while working less than 80 hours a month. At the
same time, according to the most recent data in 1999,the average per capita
income was $21,281.
The last two pilot contract negotiations, United and Delta, both of which
had alleged job actions with far reaching effects on the consumer, resulted
in a pay scale where, by the end of the contract, the senior pilots will
make over $280,000 in base pay with the ability to make one-third more for
voluntarily flying 25 more hours a month. Not only should the consumer not
have to suffer as a result of this avarice, but many analysts are concerned
that with labor costs rising so high, airlines will not be able to survive
economically or will at least put themselves in a hole for years to come.
Labor costs for an airline are now projected to be over 33% of its fixed
costs.
Many people argue that management has a choice, but in reality, the choice
is to give in to higher salary demands that a company may not be able to
afford or face a debilitating strike that may cripple the airline and force
it out of business. I don't believe that anyone would argue that is a
choice.
We have convened this hearing to look at these issues. Although this
subject is one that can be very divisive along party lines, I have received
complaints from both sides of the aisle about the current situation. I
welcome the witnesses today and look forward to a lively and spirited
debate.
Guest
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I've always wondered about this "refusal to fly overtime" business. Surely overtime by definition should be voluntary. I ASK my colleagues if its ok to schedule them for this or that flight on days off etc. I one person does't want to, or has plans or whatever, I'll ask someone else. And if that doesn't work, I'll do it myself. Must say this seems to work.
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rgds Rat
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rgds Rat
Guest
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Wonder how much that to$$er makes in a year, including all the money made from 'outside interests'.
But of course politicians have all that expensive, thorough, professional training and carry personal liability for mistakes they make...
D'oh!
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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...
But of course politicians have all that expensive, thorough, professional training and carry personal liability for mistakes they make...
D'oh!
------------------
...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...
Guest
Posts: n/a
I Love Sen. John M. for what he once was and did. To stay in the hand of his captures when he could have gone home was a testiment to his honor and courage. That said, he is so out to lunch on anything to do with pilots and the deregulated airline system he helped to vote into effect.
They wanted deregulation when it equaled $100 fares between JFK & LAX, but balked when nobody found serving up state New York with frequent Jet service profitable. He was more than willing to let a half a dozen airlines of historical note go out of business, but he think the government should stop workers from being able to bargin for contract if it inconviences him, or someone who might vote for him. They want 1960's service for a 1990's price. What can I say?
I am afraid John may have become just another politician after all those years inside the beltway. I would love to go one on one with him for just an hour to see if he really is as uninformed about what ails the US air travel industry. I'll never get that chance most likely and there are real doubts that he ever changes his mind about anything. The bottom line is labor and especially pilots will much spend time and money to limit his power (i.e. his run for President). "John, you could have been someone, you could have been a contender!"
Much regret,
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ex-expat.
They wanted deregulation when it equaled $100 fares between JFK & LAX, but balked when nobody found serving up state New York with frequent Jet service profitable. He was more than willing to let a half a dozen airlines of historical note go out of business, but he think the government should stop workers from being able to bargin for contract if it inconviences him, or someone who might vote for him. They want 1960's service for a 1990's price. What can I say?
I am afraid John may have become just another politician after all those years inside the beltway. I would love to go one on one with him for just an hour to see if he really is as uninformed about what ails the US air travel industry. I'll never get that chance most likely and there are real doubts that he ever changes his mind about anything. The bottom line is labor and especially pilots will much spend time and money to limit his power (i.e. his run for President). "John, you could have been someone, you could have been a contender!"
Much regret,
------------------
ex-expat.
Guest
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The fact that Senator McCain flew combat off carriers, and was a prisoner of war, in no way excuses his apparent willingness to conveniently overlook or twist the facts.
For example, to lambast pilots for "working only 80 hours a month" illustrates either extreme stupidity or outright dishonesty.
To use a similar yardstick, one could say that Senators work less than an hour a day on average. The time spent on research and preparation does not count, the time spent lobbying does not count, etc, etc, only the actual time spent on debate in the senate counts.
On this issue he is clearly playing to a gallery, and it demeans him and his past achievements.
Guest
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And it is not 80 hours anyway. It's 80 scheduled block hours, a mere 20% off the legal limit a month and very short off the yearly maximum. Most hours at out of the body clock times, 2 hours preparation, bad weather, minimal ground equipment, and so on and so on and so on...
At least that is the average pilot's job in the freight industry!
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There's nothing like a three-holer...
At least that is the average pilot's job in the freight industry!
------------------
There's nothing like a three-holer...
Guest
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Senator McCain is a war hero - and you're not! So quit the holier-than-thou attitude.
McCain also makes two VALID points. Airline pilots working for US majors have too much leverage - without pilots you can't fly... The same is true about the flight attendants and the mechanics - this business is entirely too dependent upon labor to operate. The airline business is a $hit "business" to work in from a management perspective - very difficult to follow your fiduciary duty and maximize profits for shareholders.
McCain is also right that a major disruption/strike at this point in this weak economy could have an adverse affect on the system. Do you disagree with that? Are you an idiot? He's right about these two points - it's just that he doesn't convey them in a manner that suits you because you are too close to the issue - if someone threatens your livelihood you will fight back.
I agree that airline pilots deserve more money and that they are "underappreciated" by most people. But you people need to examine the opposite perspective - otherwise you risk sounding like an idiot. McCain also isn't afraid to say what he believes - you need to credit someone for that - even if it is a bit misguided...
I don't agree with every point McCain makes, but don't knock a war hero - he endured more PAIN than you would in most lifetimes. You may disagree with his stance, but don't knock him - you'll end up looking like a jerk!
McCain also makes two VALID points. Airline pilots working for US majors have too much leverage - without pilots you can't fly... The same is true about the flight attendants and the mechanics - this business is entirely too dependent upon labor to operate. The airline business is a $hit "business" to work in from a management perspective - very difficult to follow your fiduciary duty and maximize profits for shareholders.
McCain is also right that a major disruption/strike at this point in this weak economy could have an adverse affect on the system. Do you disagree with that? Are you an idiot? He's right about these two points - it's just that he doesn't convey them in a manner that suits you because you are too close to the issue - if someone threatens your livelihood you will fight back.
I agree that airline pilots deserve more money and that they are "underappreciated" by most people. But you people need to examine the opposite perspective - otherwise you risk sounding like an idiot. McCain also isn't afraid to say what he believes - you need to credit someone for that - even if it is a bit misguided...
I don't agree with every point McCain makes, but don't knock a war hero - he endured more PAIN than you would in most lifetimes. You may disagree with his stance, but don't knock him - you'll end up looking like a jerk!
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C'MON NOW -
With U.S. baseball and football players making into the millions per year for having fun and not risking their lives, what's McCain's beef with pilots?
Just because the average pilot didn't get their family jewels removed in the Hanoi Hilton, McCain has a bout of penis-envy going - understandably.
If McCain gave a care about flying safety, I'd appreciate his genuine care for Americans. However, his continued support of the ATA membership against safety laws and regulations, with a laser focus on corporate profits; he's a pawn, a loser and a whiner, however powerful he may be.
It's not a reality of the airlines losing money for having paid the pilots the wages. The airlines are still making record profits. What's wrong with the pilots wanting a share. The fuel increases cost the airlines radically more money, but McCain doesn't care. His money interests (campaign contributors) profit wonderfully from the fuel expense. It's about maximizing the corporate profits at the expense of wages, benefits and safety.
The impending downfall of the FAA leaders attests to the safety issue. Not that anyone in power cares, they care that they got caught. Where's McCain on that issue?
Jane Garvey was fully informed all along the way. It didn't take this long for her to get a conscience, it took her this long to get 'way busted,' in the current American jargon. Was McCain concerned? He's nobody's 'American' in the traditional sense.
If the mechanics and flight attendants can maximize their wages - good on them, too. Let's see if they can find the courage to risk, the same way the pilots did. I'm on their side.
Forums such as this make a difference.
With U.S. baseball and football players making into the millions per year for having fun and not risking their lives, what's McCain's beef with pilots?
Just because the average pilot didn't get their family jewels removed in the Hanoi Hilton, McCain has a bout of penis-envy going - understandably.
If McCain gave a care about flying safety, I'd appreciate his genuine care for Americans. However, his continued support of the ATA membership against safety laws and regulations, with a laser focus on corporate profits; he's a pawn, a loser and a whiner, however powerful he may be.
It's not a reality of the airlines losing money for having paid the pilots the wages. The airlines are still making record profits. What's wrong with the pilots wanting a share. The fuel increases cost the airlines radically more money, but McCain doesn't care. His money interests (campaign contributors) profit wonderfully from the fuel expense. It's about maximizing the corporate profits at the expense of wages, benefits and safety.
The impending downfall of the FAA leaders attests to the safety issue. Not that anyone in power cares, they care that they got caught. Where's McCain on that issue?
Jane Garvey was fully informed all along the way. It didn't take this long for her to get a conscience, it took her this long to get 'way busted,' in the current American jargon. Was McCain concerned? He's nobody's 'American' in the traditional sense.
If the mechanics and flight attendants can maximize their wages - good on them, too. Let's see if they can find the courage to risk, the same way the pilots did. I'm on their side.
Forums such as this make a difference.
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But I thought that everyone knew that Trade Unionists are just a bunch of whining pinko commie b*st*rds? If it weren't for the sacrifices made by John McCain and his like the workers would all be running around in Cadillacs while "working" a twenty hour week. Its getting so that upright, honest, law abiding capitalist fund-raisers can't find decent help any more. Have you tried to find a decent Butler anywhere these days? NO! They're all working for damned airline pilots! I rest my case...
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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Many interesting observations made. LAVDUMPER: you've made excellent points and reflect, in a unique way, the respect many of us have for McCain's (like the others, along with my hatred for Hanoi Jane Fonda, the rich "Communist" w***e, when it was hip at UC Berkely, UW Madison...conveniently turned capitalist: her well-documented record speaks for itself, also) sheer guts and stamina, supported by belief in his country, in order to try and survive years in solitary confinement while repeatedly injured by torture and expected to cooperate for propaganda etc. Try not to get me wrong here-his truly awesome background both as a Navy Attack pilot (quite an accomplishment in itself, no doubt) and later as a US Senator speaks for itself-but the Pprune discussion(s) about him might be more objective if Pprune members can avoid feeling like it is a personal attack on the MAN (as opposed to the politician), because of our admiration for his guts and determination? By the way, Lou Shattuck, former F-105 "Thud Driver" (also a Hanoi POW for several years, later flew with the Holiday Inn aerobatic team?) was in my Dad's student pilot class in the early 50s.
What some of us don't like is McCain's distortion of salaries and equating a full flying month to someone working inside a corporate cubicle for 40 hours per week. Many US jet airline pilots, yes-jets, as FO, qualify for US govt food stamps to feed their families: flying the CRJ, Avro, Embraer....and Senator McCain implied that we all have excellent salaries and don't have plans on our days off-that's where he's speaking pure B.S. McCain earlier questioned the patriotism of very many US airline pilots, with a similar arguement, no matter whether we are veterans or not. Only a fool or would question McCain's immense patriotism-but that is not the case here. But a number of the Senator's comments seemed like a low cheap shot and in questionable taste, at best, no matter what McCain's own background consists of.
None of this detracts from my admiration for his past accomplishments and basic integrity. Why can't questions about a govt leader's well-scripted (he has a large staff for research?), very inaccurate, sweeping generalizations be tolerated? Is he above any criticism or questioning? Now this seemed to have been the case with many "patriotic" leaders in the 30's 40's etc-does anyone see my point?
Must/should any remarks and philosophies of any much-admired politician always be unquestioned in a democracy? If so, what if all top govt leaders's remarks were above reproach?
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 May 2001).]
What some of us don't like is McCain's distortion of salaries and equating a full flying month to someone working inside a corporate cubicle for 40 hours per week. Many US jet airline pilots, yes-jets, as FO, qualify for US govt food stamps to feed their families: flying the CRJ, Avro, Embraer....and Senator McCain implied that we all have excellent salaries and don't have plans on our days off-that's where he's speaking pure B.S. McCain earlier questioned the patriotism of very many US airline pilots, with a similar arguement, no matter whether we are veterans or not. Only a fool or would question McCain's immense patriotism-but that is not the case here. But a number of the Senator's comments seemed like a low cheap shot and in questionable taste, at best, no matter what McCain's own background consists of.
None of this detracts from my admiration for his past accomplishments and basic integrity. Why can't questions about a govt leader's well-scripted (he has a large staff for research?), very inaccurate, sweeping generalizations be tolerated? Is he above any criticism or questioning? Now this seemed to have been the case with many "patriotic" leaders in the 30's 40's etc-does anyone see my point?
Must/should any remarks and philosophies of any much-admired politician always be unquestioned in a democracy? If so, what if all top govt leaders's remarks were above reproach?
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 May 2001).]
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It's interesting that pilots are probably the highest paid workers who are represented by Unions. I think that in part is the real issue. Certain elements HATE Unions, all the more reason to keep them. Without Unions pilots would be paid like bus drivers and treated the same.
In any case like any big capitalist exercise, market forces are in operation.
Let's just try and set up an airline and pay the pilots 'realistic' wages.
I think the saying is; 'Pay peanuts and you get monkeys'.
Also being America, there are always alternatives, if you don't pay pilots competive salaries they'll walk out of aviation if need be. You can get paid the same money in your own business or working for a big player and get to fly your own aircraft on your days off, much more fun and very common even now.
As for John McCain, just because you're an ex pilot and war hero doesn't stop you being a shmuck!
[This message has been edited by Steepclimb (edited 07 May 2001).]
In any case like any big capitalist exercise, market forces are in operation.
Let's just try and set up an airline and pay the pilots 'realistic' wages.
I think the saying is; 'Pay peanuts and you get monkeys'.
Also being America, there are always alternatives, if you don't pay pilots competive salaries they'll walk out of aviation if need be. You can get paid the same money in your own business or working for a big player and get to fly your own aircraft on your days off, much more fun and very common even now.
As for John McCain, just because you're an ex pilot and war hero doesn't stop you being a shmuck!
[This message has been edited by Steepclimb (edited 07 May 2001).]
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"Refusal to work overtime" is an illegal job action? Has not the eminent senator heard of the 14th amendment? You know, the one that abolished slavery and gave individuals the right to negotiate the terms of their employment? Sickouts are one thing, but if a refusal to work overtime is causing so much chaos doesn't it indicate that management should do more to attract & retain competent pilots, maybe even invest in scholarships and pay the newbies a bit more? Am I missing something here? Or is it just a classic case of airline executives deciding it's cheaper to buy a few politicians than to invest in their own operation?
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Per dementia ad astra
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Per dementia ad astra
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BAD SUBJECT, I REALIZE -
A little remembered fact in history was that Hitler's first target was the union leaders. As extreme an association as that is, question why the U.S. government has a fetish against guns which account for a miniscule number of deaths compared to the malpractice fatalities attributed to medical doctors. Drug-alcohol related deaths dwarf gun fatalities, as well.
War hero-turned-traitor is no war hero. He either fought for the American way of life or he's another corporal Hitler.
I hate to be that brutal, but McCain's selective silence on major issues while attacking the American ideal of having the best life possible - and within legal means - is suspect in the best light.
I have the highest regard for McCain's war record and do not envy his time in Hanoi. I hope his zeal for the American people versus the american corporation isn't an illusion.
If McCain-the-politician wants to do something worthwhile, let him examine the wage conditions of the beginning pilots in his own state. If he wants to cry 'foul' with the starting conditions and wages with such carriers as American West and Mesa Airlines, I'll listen.
Until then he's a Lackey for the American corporations who don't have voting rights - does that bring a thought to light? [$$$]
[This message has been edited by SKYDRIFTER (edited 07 May 2001).]
A little remembered fact in history was that Hitler's first target was the union leaders. As extreme an association as that is, question why the U.S. government has a fetish against guns which account for a miniscule number of deaths compared to the malpractice fatalities attributed to medical doctors. Drug-alcohol related deaths dwarf gun fatalities, as well.
War hero-turned-traitor is no war hero. He either fought for the American way of life or he's another corporal Hitler.
I hate to be that brutal, but McCain's selective silence on major issues while attacking the American ideal of having the best life possible - and within legal means - is suspect in the best light.
I have the highest regard for McCain's war record and do not envy his time in Hanoi. I hope his zeal for the American people versus the american corporation isn't an illusion.
If McCain-the-politician wants to do something worthwhile, let him examine the wage conditions of the beginning pilots in his own state. If he wants to cry 'foul' with the starting conditions and wages with such carriers as American West and Mesa Airlines, I'll listen.
Until then he's a Lackey for the American corporations who don't have voting rights - does that bring a thought to light? [$$$]
[This message has been edited by SKYDRIFTER (edited 07 May 2001).]
Guest
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We all earn our wings every day of our lives. Past accomplishments are something to be proud of, not to be used as license to be untruthful and banal in the present or future.
McCain has shown what real cloth he is made of now. By publically referring to United pilots as unpatriotic, is beyond pale and unworthy of a leader. His referal that pilots make so much money for working only 80 hours per month was disingenous, if not an outright purposeful misrepresentation. He knows better. I think his son is even an airline pilot. Can someone please confirm this? Either he is stupid, reckless, impetuous, and/or a liar. Any of these character faults disqualify him as a leader.
I too served my country for 22 years, and I was greatly offended by McCain. And to think, during the primary elections, I was almost fooled into voting for this petulant jerk.
McCain has shown what real cloth he is made of now. By publically referring to United pilots as unpatriotic, is beyond pale and unworthy of a leader. His referal that pilots make so much money for working only 80 hours per month was disingenous, if not an outright purposeful misrepresentation. He knows better. I think his son is even an airline pilot. Can someone please confirm this? Either he is stupid, reckless, impetuous, and/or a liar. Any of these character faults disqualify him as a leader.
I too served my country for 22 years, and I was greatly offended by McCain. And to think, during the primary elections, I was almost fooled into voting for this petulant jerk.
Guest
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Sorry folks, but what do you expect from a Republican? These guys will spend their political lives trying to trample unions into the ground, they are allied to big business and that's it.
I brought this up when warning folks about Bush being elected and still pilots came out supporting him, I guess when he allows Lorenzo back in to the Business, then, maybe, you might wake up.
I brought this up when warning folks about Bush being elected and still pilots came out supporting him, I guess when he allows Lorenzo back in to the Business, then, maybe, you might wake up.