Ryanair loses legal bid to identify website critics
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Originally Posted by Pigsfly
Any chance that that Police will instigate or be instructed to instigate a perjury investigation into this alleged false evidence by Eddie Wilson and Warick Brady. Its only right that these people sould earn that they are not above the Law.
Well done.
Well done.
No need to be so coy - it's not "alleged" false evidence. The judge found AS A FACT that their evidence was false.
Now remind me again - what happened to Jonathon Aitkin and Jeffrey Archer for that sort of thing??????
Here's a little reminder from http://wwa.rte.ie/news/1999/0608/aiken.html
In London, the disgraced former Conservative cabinet minister, Jonathon Aitken, has been jailed for 18 months after admitting perjury and perverting the course of justice. Aitken, a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, admitted lying to the High Court during a failed libel action in 1997. He had tried to sue the Guardian newspaper and Granada television in the High Court over allegations about his links with wealthy Saudi businessmen. The case collapsed after it emerged he lied about aides to the Saudi royal family settling his hotel bill at the Paris Ritz in 1993. Debt collectors last week took his Rolex watch and cufflinks, as well as other possessions from to try to recoup his legal costs of £2 million. He has declared himself bankrupt
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supercilious:
Disdainfully arrogant; haughty.
Strikes me that the judge is one sharp cookie.
Not quite the words I'd use to describe the said individual; but then I'm no expert linguist.
Disdainfully arrogant; haughty.
Strikes me that the judge is one sharp cookie.
Not quite the words I'd use to describe the said individual; but then I'm no expert linguist.
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As one of those who has felt it necessary to do my best here on pprune to keep warning potential Ryanair pilot employees about how they might find themselves treated, I have to welcome this judgment as a vindication of those who have been saying that all is not well in the FR camp. We have been "pooh-hooed", accused of "hijacking" threads and worse. But we have a High Court judge with us now.
There can be few organisations that would be prepared to suffer such a slating - and to have several senior Executives accussed of such serious mis-behaviour - without feeling obliged to take action. The reality, known to most Ryanair pilots and staff, is that this problem starts at the very top and colours the way the whole organisation works. For that reason (that it starts at the top) there will be no action.
And that means that they will continue with their little ways. Tails will be lowered for a short period, and then it will start again. But they have been seriously damaged, and they know it. There has been too much smoke and too much denial of any fire.
As for the future, who will employ such "Executives" elsewhere? Even worse, the pilots might even get their "tails up" and suffer notions of "fair play". We might even look back at this judgment and say that this was the moment things changed forever.
There can be few organisations that would be prepared to suffer such a slating - and to have several senior Executives accussed of such serious mis-behaviour - without feeling obliged to take action. The reality, known to most Ryanair pilots and staff, is that this problem starts at the very top and colours the way the whole organisation works. For that reason (that it starts at the top) there will be no action.
And that means that they will continue with their little ways. Tails will be lowered for a short period, and then it will start again. But they have been seriously damaged, and they know it. There has been too much smoke and too much denial of any fire.
As for the future, who will employ such "Executives" elsewhere? Even worse, the pilots might even get their "tails up" and suffer notions of "fair play". We might even look back at this judgment and say that this was the moment things changed forever.
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The important thing that took place is that some Ryanair pilots went into court and told the truth. That is what made the walls of the evil empire come tumbling down. It is easy to say that everyone should tell the truth, but a bit harder to do in some organisations that others.
I don't know how many pilots were involved, but I think we should all be VERY grateful for their courage, whoever they may be.
I don't know how many pilots were involved, but I think we should all be VERY grateful for their courage, whoever they may be.
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No doubt that it was a stunning victory, but I'm looking forward to 2pm this afternoon, when the judge gives his decision on costs etc.There'll be some a@se kicking in the boardroom later!
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Ah to be a fly on the wall late this afternoon in FR HQ,. Can you imagine:
MOL(in CJ Haughey accent): well now OBrien whose feckin idea was this anyway?
DOB: it wasn't me boss, honest boss, it was Eddie's idea, I tried to dissuade him honest boss.
MOL: well Wilson, who's going to pay for this. €100,000's down the feckin ****ter, for what? Eh, you feckin gob****e.
EW: no boss it wasn't me, honest boss. It was.....your idea boss....I swear I have it in a memo.
MOL: you're all fired. (clicks intercom) Send in the next bunch of brown nosing bastards.
MOL(in CJ Haughey accent): well now OBrien whose feckin idea was this anyway?
DOB: it wasn't me boss, honest boss, it was Eddie's idea, I tried to dissuade him honest boss.
MOL: well Wilson, who's going to pay for this. €100,000's down the feckin ****ter, for what? Eh, you feckin gob****e.
EW: no boss it wasn't me, honest boss. It was.....your idea boss....I swear I have it in a memo.
MOL: you're all fired. (clicks intercom) Send in the next bunch of brown nosing bastards.
Originally Posted by Aloue
As one of those who has felt it necessary to do my best here on pprune to keep warning potential Ryanair pilot employees about how they might find themselves treated, I have to welcome this judgment as a vindication of those who have been saying that all is not well in the FR camp.
My assumption that Aloue works for FR might be wrong, but there are plenty of negative posts from people who evidently do.
I expect to be reviled for asking the question, but this is something I simply cannot understand.
Presumably if disaffected staff walk in sufficient numbers, things would change, if they really are so bad.
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Trying not to be rude,OLD, but that is a very simplistic view. It really is not easy to walk out of job, people will put up with huge amounts of cr@p, because they like the type of work, kids are settled at school, dont want to leave an area, cant find another job, havent yet got the hours etc etc.
And often there is a loyalty to colleagues and friend, and people develop this odd siege mentality, we can take anything you throw at us!.
However, it is clear that the tide is turning, there is huge anger and bitterness which is going to explode, and hopefully, sweep away the management aberrations currently in charge.
And huge congratulations to REPA
And often there is a loyalty to colleagues and friend, and people develop this odd siege mentality, we can take anything you throw at us!.
However, it is clear that the tide is turning, there is huge anger and bitterness which is going to explode, and hopefully, sweep away the management aberrations currently in charge.
And huge congratulations to REPA
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'Tis the east and Minuteman is the sun.
why he or she doesn't just quit, instead of carrying on drawing the pay while telling us all how awful it is?
He's not alone in his delight, though, and such base pleasure from so admired an adversary too. Dear oh dear.
Leo, Leo, wherefore art thou Leo?
The harlot, who ne'er turn'd her gloating eyes
From Caesar's household, common vice and pest
Of courts, 'gainst me inflam'd the minds of all;
And to Augustus they so spread the flame,
That my glad honours chang'd to bitter woes.
My soul, disdainful and disgusted, sought
Refuge in death from scorn, and I became,
Just as I was, unjust toward myself.
By the new roots, which fix this stem, I swear,
That never faith I broke to my liege lord,
Who merited such honour; and of you,
If any to the world indeed return,
Clear he from wrong my memory, that lies
Yet prostrate under envy's cruel blow.”
From Caesar's household, common vice and pest
Of courts, 'gainst me inflam'd the minds of all;
And to Augustus they so spread the flame,
That my glad honours chang'd to bitter woes.
My soul, disdainful and disgusted, sought
Refuge in death from scorn, and I became,
Just as I was, unjust toward myself.
By the new roots, which fix this stem, I swear,
That never faith I broke to my liege lord,
Who merited such honour; and of you,
If any to the world indeed return,
Clear he from wrong my memory, that lies
Yet prostrate under envy's cruel blow.”
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Measure for measure...
My dear Leo, indeed when the real game is afoot there may well be a lot of buttons pushed. However it may be more akin to the following:
We must not make a scarecrow of the law,
Setting it up to fear the birds of prey,
And let it keep one shape, till custom make it
Their perch and not their terror.
A happy summer indeed!
We must not make a scarecrow of the law,
Setting it up to fear the birds of prey,
And let it keep one shape, till custom make it
Their perch and not their terror.
A happy summer indeed!
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Nice to have been mentioned by Leo, to whom full marks must be accorded for the act of turning up and making an impressive entry, stage left (ooops... I meant right). Funny enough Leo I am not hyperventilating, but I am going to address the issues, as you do above, by changing the subject from the inconvenience of an apparently damning judgment by a High Court judge.
While thinking earlier today about Ryanair I got to thinking about the weather and some people I know somewhere. It was nice. It kept me from having to think about bad things, or answering inconvenient questions from the wife, or anything unpalatable like perjury.
Just as well you think the judgment is a speed hump Leo- I've just been reading a bit of the judgement on another site ..... de judge has said some blunt things Leo and denial is probably the only recourse. But it's a bit more than a "speed hump" or even "speed hill" - more like a "speed mountain".
While thinking earlier today about Ryanair I got to thinking about the weather and some people I know somewhere. It was nice. It kept me from having to think about bad things, or answering inconvenient questions from the wife, or anything unpalatable like perjury.
Just as well you think the judgment is a speed hump Leo- I've just been reading a bit of the judgement on another site ..... de judge has said some blunt things Leo and denial is probably the only recourse. But it's a bit more than a "speed hump" or even "speed hill" - more like a "speed mountain".
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Apparently the hearing on costs was delayed until next Friday. However, it seems like counsel for one (or both) of the two pilots associations has said they might be looking for "indemnity costs". I don't know what those are (but I suspect that they are not likely to be pleasant for Ryanair).
Apparently the words in court were to the effect that the association lawyers wanted Ryanair's lawyers to know that this would happen next week. Given the comprehensive defeat that Ryanair has suffered it seems highly probable that costs will be awarded against them (whatever of "Indemnity Costs" I know nothing).
Apparently the words in court were to the effect that the association lawyers wanted Ryanair's lawyers to know that this would happen next week. Given the comprehensive defeat that Ryanair has suffered it seems highly probable that costs will be awarded against them (whatever of "Indemnity Costs" I know nothing).
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Google produced this on costmonkey
http://www.costsmonkey.co.uk/html/indemnity_costs.html
Conduct will commonly be a deciding factor in deciding whether the indemnity basis is the appropriate alternative to the standard basis and then only if the court considers a party's conduct has been wholly unreasonable. An example of such unreasonableness may be where a claiming party has been purposely dishonest and, more to the point, has intentionally misled the parties to the proceedings.
http://www.costsmonkey.co.uk/html/indemnity_costs.html
Conduct will commonly be a deciding factor in deciding whether the indemnity basis is the appropriate alternative to the standard basis and then only if the court considers a party's conduct has been wholly unreasonable. An example of such unreasonableness may be where a claiming party has been purposely dishonest and, more to the point, has intentionally misled the parties to the proceedings.
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Interesting that, while decrying the judgement as a "disappointment" or a "legal speed bump", Ryanair have not actually disputed the judges damning indictment of both the organisation and the executives concerned.
So Leo, why don't we cut through the bull$hit in your post and focus on the actual issue. Seeing as denial is not a realistic option (though no doubt it is the chosen one), can you tell us if you agree with the judges judgement that Ryanair are the only bullies in town and the management are the only liars? And if you do agree, do you think this is an acceptable attitude to take?
Finally Leo, how do you think the impending court cases are gonna go seeing as so many principle management witnesses have been utterly discredited?
So Leo, why don't we cut through the bull$hit in your post and focus on the actual issue. Seeing as denial is not a realistic option (though no doubt it is the chosen one), can you tell us if you agree with the judges judgement that Ryanair are the only bullies in town and the management are the only liars? And if you do agree, do you think this is an acceptable attitude to take?
Finally Leo, how do you think the impending court cases are gonna go seeing as so many principle management witnesses have been utterly discredited?
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Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall.
But man, proud man,
Drest in a little brief authority,
Most ignorant of what he ’s most assured,
His glassy essence, like an angry ape,
Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven
As make the angels weep.
Drest in a little brief authority,
Most ignorant of what he ’s most assured,
His glassy essence, like an angry ape,
Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven
As make the angels weep.
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DH121, he still makes that claim. As you can from his posts, line pilot or not, he does not enjoy a close relationship with reality.
Leo, as you no doubt read my last post, why not provide some answers to the questions instead of posting nonsensical irrelevant verse? Could it be that the white house is badly rattled by this judgement?
Leo, as you no doubt read my last post, why not provide some answers to the questions instead of posting nonsensical irrelevant verse? Could it be that the white house is badly rattled by this judgement?
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DH121, he does indeed. However, he has seen "the writing on the wall" and is hoping to apply for alternative employment as a Professor of poetry and obscurity back in the antipodes. Like all Ryanair fellow travellers he never, but never, but never-ever answers or addresses any questions that might bring even a scintilla of doubt on the moral or business behaviour of Ryanair.
I'm trying to hunt down some of the words uttered by the Judge which, by all accounts are rather unfavourable regarding the said Ryanair behaviour. When I get them I will invite Leo to reply(ignore) the EVIDENCE and FINDINGS 0F FACT by a High Court judge.
Leo might Cowper have had such as you in mind ? ….
Fanaticism soberly defined,
Is the false fire of an o’erheated mind.
More pertinent to the Ryanair-Hairy Camel view of the world perhaps is the story of Heywood Broun who listened with disbelief to a politician giving his version of the facts. “How does he get away with it?” whispered a fellow reporter, “he is murdering the truth”. Broun shook his head in disagreement, “He’ll never get close enough to do it bodily harm.”
Which is why Ryanair never saw the disaster coming at them. Tee hee …. now that IS justice.
I'm trying to hunt down some of the words uttered by the Judge which, by all accounts are rather unfavourable regarding the said Ryanair behaviour. When I get them I will invite Leo to reply(ignore) the EVIDENCE and FINDINGS 0F FACT by a High Court judge.
Leo might Cowper have had such as you in mind ? ….
Fanaticism soberly defined,
Is the false fire of an o’erheated mind.
More pertinent to the Ryanair-Hairy Camel view of the world perhaps is the story of Heywood Broun who listened with disbelief to a politician giving his version of the facts. “How does he get away with it?” whispered a fellow reporter, “he is murdering the truth”. Broun shook his head in disagreement, “He’ll never get close enough to do it bodily harm.”
Which is why Ryanair never saw the disaster coming at them. Tee hee …. now that IS justice.
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Never lets us down
Ah Capt. Leo, for once you are correct.
The quote you make is entirely relevant!
This quite nicely points at what is also relevant about the court case: not the fact that FR were unable to get the disclosure of identities but the fact that senior management personnel have been found to get up on the stand in a court of law and give false evidence in an attempt to perpetuate FR myths whilst attempting to "break the resolve" of FR pilots - in order to maintain what "little brief authority" they have.
The judge in the case also points out the "perfectly reasonable terms and conditions" which we had another debate on some time ago bear "all the hallmarks of oppression." What an extraordinary difference in opinion!
So now we have determined that FR management cannot be trusted and it has been shown that the "most cossetted group of employees" are being bullied "by Ryanair itself," where do your beloved management stand now, Leo?
Why shouldn't your colleagues be allowed to seek to change the "most onerous" conditions they find themselves in? It could be you next, being the ordinary line pilot that you are!
The quote you make is entirely relevant!
This quite nicely points at what is also relevant about the court case: not the fact that FR were unable to get the disclosure of identities but the fact that senior management personnel have been found to get up on the stand in a court of law and give false evidence in an attempt to perpetuate FR myths whilst attempting to "break the resolve" of FR pilots - in order to maintain what "little brief authority" they have.
The judge in the case also points out the "perfectly reasonable terms and conditions" which we had another debate on some time ago bear "all the hallmarks of oppression." What an extraordinary difference in opinion!
So now we have determined that FR management cannot be trusted and it has been shown that the "most cossetted group of employees" are being bullied "by Ryanair itself," where do your beloved management stand now, Leo?
Why shouldn't your colleagues be allowed to seek to change the "most onerous" conditions they find themselves in? It could be you next, being the ordinary line pilot that you are!