CAA Inquiry into BA Engineer @ Glasgow
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Interesting reading.
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Sounds like many engineers at BA were aware that this was going on, shame they not aware of an MOR form they can fill in and give to the CAA, if only one engineer leaves BA after this one case comes to life, the question must be, how many other engineers inside BA use the same system and feel it will OK as when they they get found out, it will be Ok.
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Think BA will have to accept that aircraft going through maint checks with no maint cover avail, but aircraft come out on time, might be a problem if the CAA find that out, guess the AAIB will be busy in the future.
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Am sure that the aircraft that were maintained when engineer on holiday were removed from service and checks were actioned again, just like the pro-active maint checks that were actioned on the BA320 that lost all elec power during flt last year.(or did the AAIB have to order the checks, I forget).
Looks like the wake up call has tried a few times, I wonder what the alarm will look like.???
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Sounds like many engineers at BA were aware that this was going on, shame they not aware of an MOR form they can fill in and give to the CAA, if only one engineer leaves BA after this one case comes to life, the question must be, how many other engineers inside BA use the same system and feel it will OK as when they they get found out, it will be Ok.
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Think BA will have to accept that aircraft going through maint checks with no maint cover avail, but aircraft come out on time, might be a problem if the CAA find that out, guess the AAIB will be busy in the future.
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Am sure that the aircraft that were maintained when engineer on holiday were removed from service and checks were actioned again, just like the pro-active maint checks that were actioned on the BA320 that lost all elec power during flt last year.(or did the AAIB have to order the checks, I forget).
Looks like the wake up call has tried a few times, I wonder what the alarm will look like.???
Paxing All Over The World
Here follows a pessimistic post ...
Well, this all presents an interesting buisiness opportunity to anyone willing to take the stance: We REALLY do our maintenance properly and that's why are fares are a bit more expensive. Come and inspect our workshops that are not outsourced etc. Inspect the certificates on-line etc.
Not a chance, short term cash for the board and shareholders wins every time. In any organisation, once this kind of malaise sets it, it is very difficult to get it out. The longer you leave it the worse it is and the more expensive to fix it. The usual cure for this malaise is dead bodies. For example, London Underground King's Cross fire, which was due to poor maintenance [cleaning] that had been pointed out.
It would seem that getting any doubts about an a/c should be made and filed off the a/c before take off. The flight and data recorders might not capture all the relevant information.
Well, this all presents an interesting buisiness opportunity to anyone willing to take the stance: We REALLY do our maintenance properly and that's why are fares are a bit more expensive. Come and inspect our workshops that are not outsourced etc. Inspect the certificates on-line etc.
Not a chance, short term cash for the board and shareholders wins every time. In any organisation, once this kind of malaise sets it, it is very difficult to get it out. The longer you leave it the worse it is and the more expensive to fix it. The usual cure for this malaise is dead bodies. For example, London Underground King's Cross fire, which was due to poor maintenance [cleaning] that had been pointed out.
It would seem that getting any doubts about an a/c should be made and filed off the a/c before take off. The flight and data recorders might not capture all the relevant information.
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we call this sort of thing: PENCIL WHIPPING in the USA.
Eastern Airlines (rip) had a problem with pencil whipping during the really bad days after most of the Real eastern people had left.
Does this stuff really happen? I have seen it done at much smaller outfits.
I wrote something up in a logbook (mx log) and came back the next day to find that page had been removed from the log book!
When I asked about it, I found out the answer and resigned.
jon
Eastern Airlines (rip) had a problem with pencil whipping during the really bad days after most of the Real eastern people had left.
Does this stuff really happen? I have seen it done at much smaller outfits.
I wrote something up in a logbook (mx log) and came back the next day to find that page had been removed from the log book!
When I asked about it, I found out the answer and resigned.
jon
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..............but to give one his lic to use is really not very smart at all
All credit to who ever 'blew the whistle' although I do wonder if they could now be a management 'target'! that says a lot for our management
joetom
Am sure that the aircraft that were maintained when engineer on holiday were removed from service and checks were actioned again
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Thought police antagonist
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PLM, my apologies---never met said person, but the "strong rumour" concerned CDG hence the OSE connection. I have a lot of time for the OSE guys as I think I have indicated before, so I am not being denegratory to you in the slightest. As for the continued exemplification of how to abuse a legal requirement "because we can", well just what does it take I wonder to actually induce a significant culture change and actually get the message across to both the willing participants and those who "manage" them. Answers, on a postcard please to--the general public who place their trust in the integrity of engineers every time they fly.
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
well just what does it take I wonder to actually induce a significant culture change
You will only change the culture when you change the personnel who instigate that culture.
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Jet II...
I completely agree with the culture change requirement. However, it isn’t going to happen. Recently we cut the amount of (Area) Maintenance Managers from around 14 to 4 (not including the USA... but that’s another story). What an opportunity, you may think, to root out the poor managers! Well it only half worked; we've now got 2 of the best guys in the company out there working to keep us safe and 2 of the biggest Oxygen Thief’s to keep them company. One of them is the afore mentioned Roman stamper!
This then shows that, now that the die is cast, the company not only encourages people to sign aircraft without the proper authorisations, it rewards them by picking them over better qualified and better suited managers.
Krystal....
Thanks for the kind words. This time next year there will only be 44 of us. We are to become extinct, I think. Swallowed up by the larger organisation. Because there are so few of us Chirp and MOR just doesn't hold the same job security feelings that it, no doubt, has for other groups
. Sorry.
Good luck
PLM
I completely agree with the culture change requirement. However, it isn’t going to happen. Recently we cut the amount of (Area) Maintenance Managers from around 14 to 4 (not including the USA... but that’s another story). What an opportunity, you may think, to root out the poor managers! Well it only half worked; we've now got 2 of the best guys in the company out there working to keep us safe and 2 of the biggest Oxygen Thief’s to keep them company. One of them is the afore mentioned Roman stamper!
This then shows that, now that the die is cast, the company not only encourages people to sign aircraft without the proper authorisations, it rewards them by picking them over better qualified and better suited managers.
Krystal....
Thanks for the kind words. This time next year there will only be 44 of us. We are to become extinct, I think. Swallowed up by the larger organisation. Because there are so few of us Chirp and MOR just doesn't hold the same job security feelings that it, no doubt, has for other groups
. Sorry.Good luck
PLM
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PondLifeMan
Its not the number of 'area' maintenance managers that's the problem, althougth, yes, there are/were too many IMO, the problem lies in giving them as in certain cases certification rights!
Its not the number of 'area' maintenance managers that's the problem, althougth, yes, there are/were too many IMO, the problem lies in giving them as in certain cases certification rights!
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Gas path,
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You say all aircraft would have been checked, guess it will be hard to find all the maint checks that were done/stamped by unsuitable person or persons over what period of time.???
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I find it hard to belive that this was going on for such a long time with Manangers and Engineers aware and not doing out to fix the problem, the phrase "Rotton To The Core" comes to mind, would like to be a fly on the wall when the Managers explain how this sorry story was allowed to run to the CAA.!!!
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Other posts mention an Engineer from FCO/CDG (Roman Stamper) who does the same has now been made a Big Manager, does the CAA know of this Engineer.???
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You say all aircraft would have been checked, guess it will be hard to find all the maint checks that were done/stamped by unsuitable person or persons over what period of time.???
.
I find it hard to belive that this was going on for such a long time with Manangers and Engineers aware and not doing out to fix the problem, the phrase "Rotton To The Core" comes to mind, would like to be a fly on the wall when the Managers explain how this sorry story was allowed to run to the CAA.!!!
.
Other posts mention an Engineer from FCO/CDG (Roman Stamper) who does the same has now been made a Big Manager, does the CAA know of this Engineer.???
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Probably does now...or will very shortly
Seems like its not just BA, found THIS today but its interesting to see the company response That sends out a brilliant message, these guys obviously felt they had no choice but to go to the press.
Seems like its not just BA, found THIS today
but its interesting to see the company response That sends out a brilliant message, these guys obviously felt they had no choice but to go to the press.
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Standards are plummeting everywhere and are set to worsen if EASA and the big airlines get their way.The last two or three years have seen an acceleration in the decline of standards with the outsourcing of everything to the cheapest possible option.EASA are currently planning to scrap licenced engineers altogether to be replaced with "appropriately approved" people.So an airline or maintenance organisation will be able to get any cheap herbert and give them a stamp.I sadly have to agree with an earlier poster in that things will not improve until we have our own Kings Cross or worse.The CAA are emasculated and seemingly blind to the obvious,we are at the mercy of EASA and that is not a comfortable place to be.
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PLM and Gas Path I agree!
JetII I'm in agreement too
The last few safety incidents have produced reports on a bad safety culture. The safety culture has to be driven from the top, and I feel that this is not going to happen until:
a) A loss of an A/C and lives (God forbid!)
b) A change at the top.
So what are you going to bet on happening first?
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JetII I'm in agreement too
The last few safety incidents have produced reports on a bad safety culture. The safety culture has to be driven from the top, and I feel that this is not going to happen until:
a) A loss of an A/C and lives (God forbid!)
b) A change at the top.
So what are you going to bet on happening first?
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The sad thing is that people don't go to the press or the caa straight away, most of us try and deal with these problems internally. but when your quality manager has a conflict of interest and is in the pocket and answerable to the hierarchy that are causing this culture what chance have you got. in general u don't want your companies dirty washing aired, but when u have totally lost confidence in these departments what other option is there, even going to the caa seems pointless, and CHIRP don't make me laugh. i totally agree until we have a big smoky hole in the ground with the smell of burning flesh and luggage strewn across the runway..........................................
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Just checked the BA website.
No mention of Aircraft that were flying around out of compliance, I would expect a note to tell people that the problem is now fixed.
Is the problem fixed.???
No mention of Aircraft that were flying around out of compliance, I would expect a note to tell people that the problem is now fixed.
Is the problem fixed.???
BA and Air Canada have now joined my permanent "No Fly" list. Rest assured I will spread the word at every opportunity......and the reason why.
We seem to be engaged in a world wide race to see how badly engineers, pilots and cabin crew can be treated before lives are lost. It's a race to the bottom. Experience and professionalsim are now dirty words because they are in direct conflict with the managerial approach adopted bythe less experienced.
I'm sorry, but I think that it will take more than one hull loss and many, many, deaths to reverse the trend.
We seem to be engaged in a world wide race to see how badly engineers, pilots and cabin crew can be treated before lives are lost. It's a race to the bottom. Experience and professionalsim are now dirty words because they are in direct conflict with the managerial approach adopted bythe less experienced.
I'm sorry, but I think that it will take more than one hull loss and many, many, deaths to reverse the trend.
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Joetom
Yes! the affected a/c were pulled back, the work redone and recertified.
...and that's not all. You now have the manufacturers vying with each other with "our aircraft need less maintenance than your aircraft" which has led to an increase in the times between checks and less maintenance done on those checks, daily checks now required every third day for instance.
So mr. sunfish you'll soon be able to add every Boeing and Airbus along with anything maintained under the auspices of EASA and the FAA to your permanent 'no fly' list
So that leaves.....er..........um
Is the problem fixed.???
"if you think CAA is bad wait till you have EASA in full control"
So mr. sunfish you'll soon be able to add every Boeing and Airbus along with anything maintained under the auspices of EASA and the FAA to your permanent 'no fly' list
So that leaves.....er..........um
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Depressing to read yet again about systemic failures within BA - how long is thisi going to go on?
I see that the proposal to re-introduce Supervision has been delayed yet again (strange especially considering the BA told the AAIB that they'd re-introduced it last October!)
It looks as though BA Engineering management are, in the jargon of the day, 'not fit for purpose'
I see that the proposal to re-introduce Supervision has been delayed yet again (strange especially considering the BA told the AAIB that they'd re-introduced it last October!)
It looks as though BA Engineering management are, in the jargon of the day, 'not fit for purpose'