Mayday missed at LHR because of poor English

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Many, many, many years ago, I used to get the feeling that I wasn't talking to the bloke actually flying the aeroplane. It was generally East European airlines and it was the abnormally long delay between giving an instruction and getting a response that gave the suspicion. It could be quite unnerving when there were a lot of active strips on your desk. An explanation I was given was that often the only english speaker on board was a steward. How true that was, I don't know but it certainly felt possible.

GBZ

[planeenglish]

Actually, non-native speaking airlines do have translators on board. They are not usually pilots. The new standards do say that having translators in the tower or in the cockpit does not mean the actual operator of either can have lower than level four proficiency.

I have heard of incidents and/or accidents (can't think of any at the moment) that have occured due to the fact that these translators are not able to understand operations and mistranslate.


It is very likely that you were talking to one of these translators.

Just last week a friend of mine returned from a flight and said that he asked for something that there is no R/T and the ATC said "standby". About 3-4 minutes later a different voice (original ATC was male the next voice was female) asking to repeat. This person was not an ATC it was obvious she was there translating every word.


PE

[CargoOne]

Originally Posted by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

An explanation I was given was that often the only english speaker on board was a steward. How true that was, I don't know but it certainly felt possible.
GBZ

Nice one! Actually Soviet aircraft used to have a dedicated radio operator on flight deck so that was the guy you have been talking to. Obviously he needed some time to relate it to pilots and back. Radio operators have gone (except a few aircraft types) but navigators are still there so you should wait for another 30 years to get a chance to talk to commander

[Gerund]

It is time that RT standards are truly international standards, and that countries like the UK stop filling exceptions. If the UK CAA or the USA FAA want a difference persuade the rest of the world and change it everywhere.

Also native English speakers should set the example for correct RT.

I totally agree with 78deg and was planning to write something similar until I saw his post.

It really is time that ICAO standard RT is used internationally, and that includes in Britain. Surely if the use of 'Pass Your Message' really is that much of a safety issue, it shouldn't be too difficult to get the ICAO standard changed on safety grounds? If ICAO can't be convinced, then leave it as 'Go Ahead' and let's keep our RT here in Britain to an international standard and set some sort of example.

[planeenglish]

Line up into position and hold..............

[DOVES]

No!
You're wrong.
It's: 'Cleared into position and hold'...
And many others, like: 'I god it', 'Cleared down to twelve hundred', 'Change eighteen-seven' etc.
Please FLY SAFELY!
DOVE

[planeenglish]

I was actually making a point in other phraseologies that are dangerous.

PE

[cdb]

Originally Posted by JW411

Do we really expect ATC to understand what a double inertial reference problem is or the manifestations thereof? I would suggest that the statement that you have a limited navigation capability or that you can't do an ILS normally might get more of a reaction.

As a controller, I'm aware of what an inertial naviagation system is, and I'm disappointed and surprised that the London controller didn't. I also have no idea why the director didn't acknowledge the request for a hold. However, the pilot could certainly have been clearer.

Note that, as soon as air traffic became aware of the emergency, all the stops were pulled out and the A/C were got vectored away.

Until reading the topic, I wouldn't have known how to answer either. So, he's lost two INS. I thought most glass cockpit A/C had three. And, what about the onboard GPS, or flying on VOR/DME or other instruments? Do commercial pilots lose all the skills they practised on their inital IR? He mentioned losing his inertial navigation, not his displays.

As to the EGPWS warning, I'm pretty sure Heathrow still has PAPIs, but even without them shouldn't a jet crew be capable of flying a visual approach without going dangerously low? Or if they wanted "Point and shoot" they could have asked for a SRA. I appreciate the cloudbase was low.

But, with the benefit of hindsight it would have been a lot easier had he said "electrical failure, request radar vectors to land" or something along those lines.

I think you're right though, English is not the entire problem - and I'm sure you'll appreciate that in an ATC environment, workload would be as much of a factor as any controllers lack of knowledge. Despite one A/C having an emergency, we still have to stop the others banging into each other!

[planeenglish]

Originally Posted by cdb

Despite one A/C having an emergency, we still have to stop the others banging into each other!

Well said!!!

[DOVES]

And try to help those poor guys, who are struggling with their stress and an unusual and little known condition (seldom an unusual situation is exactly as per a check list title; more often it's a combination of them) to bring the heavy metal down as a whole.
Please
FLY SAFELY
DOVE

[zkdli]

to CDB

CDB,
You have just shown exactly the problem here. The aircraft had a double inertial reference system failure. That is not an INS failure. It something very different and you made the same assuption that the atcos in the emergency made because they did not have the infromation available to find out the ramifications of a double inertial referenece system failure.

[Few Cloudy]

Reply to Plane English

Hi Plane,

Just to be clear, I am no more of an expert than any other long time Captain
on this site. I think it is very good that airlines employ English teachers and that these teachers want to get it right.

These were the questions you put:

PE asks here: frequency change means that the ATC has changed or is it the same person as before?...
Usually it will be another controller on the new freq. This change can be due to a different controlling area or altitude/level, or just to have a more peaceful freq. to talk on.

I ask you would this not just be a procedural problem? ...
I would really have to hear the tapes here, though on the face of it, it appears that the controller didn't immediately get the point - not surprising in the middle of a lot of standard chat, when suddenly someone comes up with something unusual. Again, if the PAN call really were made, this should alert the controller that something non standard is coming.


Could an operational person help me understand if this is a problem in procedure and not linguistic performance (on either the part of the pilot or the ATC)?...
Again, without listening to the tapes, a bit difficult but a double transmission is not neccessarily affected by language. If you catch the tail end of a transmission, then it is easier to sort out if the language is good.


means that they haven’t got all the nice bits of nav kit …they are basically
point and shoot .....”.
Could you explain this to me? ..."point and shoot?"...
Not a standard phrase but he means that the navigation is back to basics and that "direct to..." clearances for instance cannot neccessarily be followed. Also, depending on aircraft type, an IRS failure can affect other systems (initially autopilot mode etc.) So it needs the controller to understand that they may not be able to follow certain directions, except for headings.

Hope this helps,

FC.

[planeenglish]

It has and I thank you. When the journalists get this they write that low proficiency was the problem when it isn't the entire case. I believe this is partly due to trying to sell an article by putting general panic in people and not understanding operations in aviation.

Albeit, the press has twisted a bit too much. It may wake some airlines up to put money into specialized English courses for their operational personnel at least. We'll see.

For my classroom though, I will use this info you have given me to make a realistic and effective lesson.

Thanks again,
PE

[MMC]

ICAO English

As some of you may, or may not be aware from March 2008 ALL flightcrew operating in International airspace & ALL ATC controllers handling International traffic will have to be assessed as to spoken & understood English and must reach ICAO level 4.

I am looking into this problem for my airline, the more I dig the bigger the problem.

Its going to be a big job - and I bet the airlines will try to delay the implementation.

If anyone wants details please pm me.

[MungoP]

I remember starting my aviation career 20 yrs ago with an airline based in Aberdeen... took about a month before I could cope with ATC instructions.

[planeenglish]

Lucky you. For most it takes MUCH longer...

Best,
PE

[planeenglish]

I have written a different thread regarding these new standards. I would appreciate any comments.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=230474

Thanks to all,

Regards,
PE