Comair TA - Rumor
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Still, though Huck, after a certain number of years, it´s hard to pull the handles, as you say, even though in the long run it may be the correct thing to do.
I know one Comair guy who joined in 1988 and struggled through the lean times just to remain based in MCO. He´s now a pretty senior RJ Capt and in his position, I´m not sure what I´d do.
I just hope for him and all of his friends they end up having jobs to go back to after this mess is over.
I do know from personal experience that when a large group of highly qualified pilots become available on the market (EAL and PAA), the jobs alluded to by ALPA don´t seem to materialize for the majority....
Good luck to all...
PS-AirB, I´m approaching 400 posts...I must be getting as bad as you...
I know one Comair guy who joined in 1988 and struggled through the lean times just to remain based in MCO. He´s now a pretty senior RJ Capt and in his position, I´m not sure what I´d do.
I just hope for him and all of his friends they end up having jobs to go back to after this mess is over.
I do know from personal experience that when a large group of highly qualified pilots become available on the market (EAL and PAA), the jobs alluded to by ALPA don´t seem to materialize for the majority....
Good luck to all...
PS-AirB, I´m approaching 400 posts...I must be getting as bad as you...
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Did the COMAIR pilot negotiators actually demand the same salaries as on a Delta 737?
That is hard to believe, and this story must be based on rumour. I can't believe that any regional MEC would expect their mgmt to agree to hourly pay even near Delta's previous contract pay, even $30 per hour less.
An American Eagle CRJ Captain told me that an Eagle CRJ (with 70 seats) Captain would earn more, if flying the new stretched version.
Who really knows what the COMAIR MEC would settle for? It is very hard to believe that their MEC could be that unrealistic.
That is hard to believe, and this story must be based on rumour. I can't believe that any regional MEC would expect their mgmt to agree to hourly pay even near Delta's previous contract pay, even $30 per hour less.
An American Eagle CRJ Captain told me that an Eagle CRJ (with 70 seats) Captain would earn more, if flying the new stretched version.
Who really knows what the COMAIR MEC would settle for? It is very hard to believe that their MEC could be that unrealistic.
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Still, considering the present hiring schedules of the major airlines, these Comair guys will at least have a port in a storm. Not as Captains but starting at the bottom of the senority list.....again. Would it not be better for these guys to accept 56% rather than demand 96%? Sing the 'ole ALPA swan song and end up on the street is not a very good option. For the junior guys, well they have nothing to loose, except their reputation in the very small airline hiring world. They would be branded as trouble-makers and not likely to be hired by anyone. Bad news travels fast, especially with regards to the Pilots Record reporting act. And, if they think that these records cannot be manipulated, think again.
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Actually 411a not quite. There are huge blocks of pilots at UNITED that were x eastern that honored the picket line. Same thing at American.
All of the people that were fired in the wake of the UPS strike that refused to cross the picket lines were found better jobs.
Do not compare 1990 when there were 10s of thousands of pilots out of work with todays market.
If there are NO jobs, then finding a job for a striker is tough. In todays world its much easier.
Cheers
Wino
All of the people that were fired in the wake of the UPS strike that refused to cross the picket lines were found better jobs.
Do not compare 1990 when there were 10s of thousands of pilots out of work with todays market.
If there are NO jobs, then finding a job for a striker is tough. In todays world its much easier.
Cheers
Wino
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Wino--
Hope you are right, although as we are entering (are in) a business downturn, there could indeed be lean times ahead for many of these guys. Would it not be better for them to accept the offer and THEN look elsewhere?
'Tis always easier to find a job when you have one. We will find out shortly.
Hope you are right, although as we are entering (are in) a business downturn, there could indeed be lean times ahead for many of these guys. Would it not be better for them to accept the offer and THEN look elsewhere?
'Tis always easier to find a job when you have one. We will find out shortly.
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411A: if you're not a scab, it's only because you didn't have or need the opportunity. I can tell from your past comments that you would most definitely cross the picket line or stab other pilots in the back if it were to benefit you.
Here's a Reuters press release on the contract vote. They're gaining, they got 93 more yes votes this time. Delta/Comair is bluffing or they wouldn't have offered the carrot for a yes vote or liquidation and replacement by another Delta Connection for a no vote. I'm glad the Comair guys didn't fall for the lie, Maybe Mgmt will get serious about negotiating and quit playing the head games.
Saturday May 12 8:52 PM ET
Comair Pilots Reject Proposed Pact by 10-1 Margin
COVINGTON, Ky. (Reuters) - Pilots of the nation's third-largest regional airline voted on Saturday to reject a new 4-1/2-year contract, prolonging a 48-day strike that has cost Comair Inc. nearly $200 million and could force the company out of business.
Union leader J.C. Lawson told a news conference that the Comair pilots had voted down a settlement offer crafted by the National Mediation Board 1,042-99 amid warnings from management that rejection could be a fatal blow for the company.
The Air Line Pilots Association (news - web sites), declining to recommend approval of the offer, had sent letters to the 1,350 pilots warning that the company seemed ready to "commit suicide'' if they rejected the settlement.
Company officials said their offer would have raised the pilots' pay scale to the highest level in the regional airline industry, instituting increases of 13 per cent to nearly 30 per cent in the first year and 25.5 per cent to 56.5 per cent over the life of the contract.
Current pay ranges from about $16,000 a year for beginners to $70,000 a year for top-scale pilots.
The new pact would have lowered the maximum duty day for pilots to 14 on-call hours and provided for a minimum of 11 days off a month.
It would also have required the company to contribute up to 6 per cent of a pilot's earnings into an accruing pension fund while increasing company contributions to 401(k) retirement plans.
"DISREGARD AND DISAPPOINTMENT''
Lawson said: "Following three years of negotiations and 48 days on strike, Comair pilots searched for a reason to say yes but once again found disregard and disappointment. This offer, like the previous one, was not the offer that management said it was.''
Comair, a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines, previously announced plans to lay off 2,000 nonstriking employees beginning on Sunday if the strike continued.
Frederick Reid, Delta's president and chief operating officer, said on Thursday that Delta would seek other ways to utilize its assets at Comair if the contract was rejected, including selling its jets to other airlines and using other Delta Connection carriers to fly Comair routes.
With the strike dragging on, Comair had already begun to retrench by eliminating 200 pilot positions and reducing its fleet by 17 aircraft.
Before the strike began on March 26, Comair was transporting about 25,000 passengers daily on its 815 flights connecting mostly small-market cities in the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas.
The company's main hub is at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport in Hebron, Kentucky, and its second-largest hub is in Orlando, Florida.
The strike was costing Comair nearly $4 million a day, company officials said.
The National Mediation Board has said that it will not call the two sides back into negotiations for at least 30 days but that they can initiate new talks on their own.
The pilots' old contract expired in June 1998, and federal mediators joined the sporadic negotiations a year later.
Here's a Reuters press release on the contract vote. They're gaining, they got 93 more yes votes this time. Delta/Comair is bluffing or they wouldn't have offered the carrot for a yes vote or liquidation and replacement by another Delta Connection for a no vote. I'm glad the Comair guys didn't fall for the lie, Maybe Mgmt will get serious about negotiating and quit playing the head games.
Saturday May 12 8:52 PM ET
Comair Pilots Reject Proposed Pact by 10-1 Margin
COVINGTON, Ky. (Reuters) - Pilots of the nation's third-largest regional airline voted on Saturday to reject a new 4-1/2-year contract, prolonging a 48-day strike that has cost Comair Inc. nearly $200 million and could force the company out of business.
Union leader J.C. Lawson told a news conference that the Comair pilots had voted down a settlement offer crafted by the National Mediation Board 1,042-99 amid warnings from management that rejection could be a fatal blow for the company.
The Air Line Pilots Association (news - web sites), declining to recommend approval of the offer, had sent letters to the 1,350 pilots warning that the company seemed ready to "commit suicide'' if they rejected the settlement.
Company officials said their offer would have raised the pilots' pay scale to the highest level in the regional airline industry, instituting increases of 13 per cent to nearly 30 per cent in the first year and 25.5 per cent to 56.5 per cent over the life of the contract.
Current pay ranges from about $16,000 a year for beginners to $70,000 a year for top-scale pilots.
The new pact would have lowered the maximum duty day for pilots to 14 on-call hours and provided for a minimum of 11 days off a month.
It would also have required the company to contribute up to 6 per cent of a pilot's earnings into an accruing pension fund while increasing company contributions to 401(k) retirement plans.
"DISREGARD AND DISAPPOINTMENT''
Lawson said: "Following three years of negotiations and 48 days on strike, Comair pilots searched for a reason to say yes but once again found disregard and disappointment. This offer, like the previous one, was not the offer that management said it was.''
Comair, a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines, previously announced plans to lay off 2,000 nonstriking employees beginning on Sunday if the strike continued.
Frederick Reid, Delta's president and chief operating officer, said on Thursday that Delta would seek other ways to utilize its assets at Comair if the contract was rejected, including selling its jets to other airlines and using other Delta Connection carriers to fly Comair routes.
With the strike dragging on, Comair had already begun to retrench by eliminating 200 pilot positions and reducing its fleet by 17 aircraft.
Before the strike began on March 26, Comair was transporting about 25,000 passengers daily on its 815 flights connecting mostly small-market cities in the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas.
The company's main hub is at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport in Hebron, Kentucky, and its second-largest hub is in Orlando, Florida.
The strike was costing Comair nearly $4 million a day, company officials said.
The National Mediation Board has said that it will not call the two sides back into negotiations for at least 30 days but that they can initiate new talks on their own.
The pilots' old contract expired in June 1998, and federal mediators joined the sporadic negotiations a year later.
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OUCH -
Granted, Delta has a lot invested in ComAir, but it wouldn't take anything to sell the assetts to another corporation to do the reduced flying. Their separate 'training academy' can use the business.
In any case, it's gonna get interesting.
I've got a bad feeling about this.
Granted, Delta has a lot invested in ComAir, but it wouldn't take anything to sell the assetts to another corporation to do the reduced flying. Their separate 'training academy' can use the business.
In any case, it's gonna get interesting.
I've got a bad feeling about this.
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DYNAMICS TO BE CONSIDERED -
The real-time effect of the TA needs to be looked at. If a 20 year pay scale held 104K, that wouldn't do anything for an 8 year captain.
If an 8 year captain went from 56,000 - 70,000, that's a pretty decent real-time jump.
While retirement is a possibility at an RJ carrier, they are normally spring-boards to the majors, hence, retirement isn't a major deal for the greater majority.
However, to look at all the warnings of a total shut-down and the rejection the TA, not too bright. ComAir didn't mean THAT much to Delta. That's a lot of unrecovered losses, including entire families.
It's up to history to say.
If ComAir folds, the Delta pilots will have gotten their way, but at the expense of the ComAir "brothers." Let's hope that ALPA isn't into enhanced management of tribalism.
Right now, it appears to be exactly that.
I've got a bad feeling about this.
The real-time effect of the TA needs to be looked at. If a 20 year pay scale held 104K, that wouldn't do anything for an 8 year captain.
If an 8 year captain went from 56,000 - 70,000, that's a pretty decent real-time jump.
While retirement is a possibility at an RJ carrier, they are normally spring-boards to the majors, hence, retirement isn't a major deal for the greater majority.
However, to look at all the warnings of a total shut-down and the rejection the TA, not too bright. ComAir didn't mean THAT much to Delta. That's a lot of unrecovered losses, including entire families.
It's up to history to say.
If ComAir folds, the Delta pilots will have gotten their way, but at the expense of the ComAir "brothers." Let's hope that ALPA isn't into enhanced management of tribalism.
Right now, it appears to be exactly that.
I've got a bad feeling about this.
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Hypothetical situation (or likely scenerio):
Comair folds, the aircraft are returned to leasors (or sold if owned) and Delta writes off the whole investment for tax purposes. Under IRS rules, this loss can be carried forward for an indefinate period, thanks to the tax reform act of 1986. Together with Delta's write offs on their new aircraft, no taxes to pay on profits for years to come, and shareholder value is enhanced to a great degree. ASA picks up the slack with some of the ex-Comair aircraft and it is a win-win situation for DAL. Who loses, well the ex-pilots of Comair of course, together with the support workers, who now lose their jobs.
And ALPA gets a big black eye. Some of the older Comair pilots may well never fly for an airline again, thanks to ALPA greedy policies. And the DAL mainline guys are smiling all the way to the bank. Then, with that enhanced shareholder value, Delta goes looking for another airline to buy, or merge with. Delta mainline guys sure must be grining now. They will have to go to a tailor to have extra pockets sewn into their suits to hold all the extra cash. And Comair guys, off to the unemployment line. They could conceivably be looked upon as troublemakers by other smaller non-union carriers.
Comair folds, the aircraft are returned to leasors (or sold if owned) and Delta writes off the whole investment for tax purposes. Under IRS rules, this loss can be carried forward for an indefinate period, thanks to the tax reform act of 1986. Together with Delta's write offs on their new aircraft, no taxes to pay on profits for years to come, and shareholder value is enhanced to a great degree. ASA picks up the slack with some of the ex-Comair aircraft and it is a win-win situation for DAL. Who loses, well the ex-pilots of Comair of course, together with the support workers, who now lose their jobs.
And ALPA gets a big black eye. Some of the older Comair pilots may well never fly for an airline again, thanks to ALPA greedy policies. And the DAL mainline guys are smiling all the way to the bank. Then, with that enhanced shareholder value, Delta goes looking for another airline to buy, or merge with. Delta mainline guys sure must be grining now. They will have to go to a tailor to have extra pockets sewn into their suits to hold all the extra cash. And Comair guys, off to the unemployment line. They could conceivably be looked upon as troublemakers by other smaller non-union carriers.
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411A -
I like your crystal ball. I can't say I like its projection any better than you do, but, unfortunately, it appears to be pretty clear.
I sincerely hope for the sake of the ComAir pilots that we're both wrong.
The sad part is that the ComAir pilots were given due and timely notice of the approaching danger. Any wounds will be self-inflicted.
Sadly, those such as ASA will be licking their chops in anticipation. Although, to some extent, you can't blame them.
Blind trust in ALPA is no different than blind trust in the stealth and invisibility of the remaining virtual government of the USA.
Congress makes laws, but they are very selectively enforced, depending on corporate profit outcome. ALPA chapters get contracts then enter into 'Side Letters of Agreement,' defeating the contract, depending on corporate profit outcome. What's the difference?
Profits!
I like your crystal ball. I can't say I like its projection any better than you do, but, unfortunately, it appears to be pretty clear.
I sincerely hope for the sake of the ComAir pilots that we're both wrong.
The sad part is that the ComAir pilots were given due and timely notice of the approaching danger. Any wounds will be self-inflicted.
Sadly, those such as ASA will be licking their chops in anticipation. Although, to some extent, you can't blame them.
Blind trust in ALPA is no different than blind trust in the stealth and invisibility of the remaining virtual government of the USA.
Congress makes laws, but they are very selectively enforced, depending on corporate profit outcome. ALPA chapters get contracts then enter into 'Side Letters of Agreement,' defeating the contract, depending on corporate profit outcome. What's the difference?
Profits!
Guest
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Unfortunately dissolution of Comair is going to be the end result of all of this.
Comair will lay off 2,000 employees today (Monday morning). Dissolution of the airline will mean 4000 regular jobs lost, 1400 pilot jobs lost, and who knows what the economic impact will be for all of the outside business supply companies.
What a terrible outcome.
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Safe flying to you...
Comair will lay off 2,000 employees today (Monday morning). Dissolution of the airline will mean 4000 regular jobs lost, 1400 pilot jobs lost, and who knows what the economic impact will be for all of the outside business supply companies.
What a terrible outcome.
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Safe flying to you...
Guest
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"What a terrible outcome."
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Disagree with you there. A terrible outcome would be for these pilots to give in to corporate and Dubbya terrorism and cross the line. These guys are striking for a worthy principle/cause and didn't walk just to irritate people.
They have been making their own informed decisions all the way through this, and obviously are continuing to do so. I was pleased at the 10 - 1 vote against a NMB contract; it was not what they negotiated, and it was not what they wanted. Now, if the Comair MEC negotiators came up with a TA, and that received the same response, that would be troubling, and indicate that the work-group have no confidence in their leadership. In that case they should recall their MEC. As it stands, they are being force-fed a turd, and they have almost unanimously said "NO". THey are not saying "NO" to talk themselves out of a job. They are trying to get themselves a fair contract for an international airline. Do not go down the route of being influenced by numbers alone. (As it is the proposed top end pay is in my opinion pi$$ poor for a jet pilot in this day and age.) They are right to tell the NMB to stick it.
It is good to see a group of people stick up for themselves and not give in to bullying. They are acting entirely within the Railway Labor Act - i.e. a legal dispute.
The Comair pilots are heroes and should be given the recognition as such for what they represent.
[This message has been edited by Oilhead (edited 14 May 2001).]
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Disagree with you there. A terrible outcome would be for these pilots to give in to corporate and Dubbya terrorism and cross the line. These guys are striking for a worthy principle/cause and didn't walk just to irritate people.
They have been making their own informed decisions all the way through this, and obviously are continuing to do so. I was pleased at the 10 - 1 vote against a NMB contract; it was not what they negotiated, and it was not what they wanted. Now, if the Comair MEC negotiators came up with a TA, and that received the same response, that would be troubling, and indicate that the work-group have no confidence in their leadership. In that case they should recall their MEC. As it stands, they are being force-fed a turd, and they have almost unanimously said "NO". THey are not saying "NO" to talk themselves out of a job. They are trying to get themselves a fair contract for an international airline. Do not go down the route of being influenced by numbers alone. (As it is the proposed top end pay is in my opinion pi$$ poor for a jet pilot in this day and age.) They are right to tell the NMB to stick it.
It is good to see a group of people stick up for themselves and not give in to bullying. They are acting entirely within the Railway Labor Act - i.e. a legal dispute.
The Comair pilots are heroes and should be given the recognition as such for what they represent.
[This message has been edited by Oilhead (edited 14 May 2001).]
Guest
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Hey Towerdog,
You of all people should know better than to believe the press's calculations on what the contract was worth.
The NewYork times said that the TA at Tower that you guys rejected was worth 350,000 dollars per year!
Having read through some of it, it basically reverted to flying to the FAR maximums. That just aint right, nor is it safe.
Cheers
Wino
You of all people should know better than to believe the press's calculations on what the contract was worth.
The NewYork times said that the TA at Tower that you guys rejected was worth 350,000 dollars per year!
Having read through some of it, it basically reverted to flying to the FAR maximums. That just aint right, nor is it safe.
Cheers
Wino
Guest
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Hi Wino.
Uh, I was never refering to the net worth of the contract, but rather to the top pay of $104,000.00. I of course assumed it was base pay at the top of the payscale as reported by my news server on the 'net.
IF so, we are talking serious money for a "commuter".
If however the 6 digit number was calculated by flying a FAA maximum of 100 hours a month. 300 in ninety days, 900 a years and so on, well, then not so impressive any more.
As far as the T.A. TA, don't remember hearing
about $350.000,00, but sounds good, I will take it...
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Men, this is no drill...
Uh, I was never refering to the net worth of the contract, but rather to the top pay of $104,000.00. I of course assumed it was base pay at the top of the payscale as reported by my news server on the 'net.
IF so, we are talking serious money for a "commuter".
If however the 6 digit number was calculated by flying a FAA maximum of 100 hours a month. 300 in ninety days, 900 a years and so on, well, then not so impressive any more.
As far as the T.A. TA, don't remember hearing
about $350.000,00, but sounds good, I will take it...
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Men, this is no drill...