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Comair TA - Rumor

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Comair TA - Rumor

Old 5th Jun 2001, 22:27
  #141 (permalink)  
DownIn3Green
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Aviator,

I'll be happy to answer that one. ALPA is for the dogs. All one has to do is review recent history (say from 1989 to 1991) and you can see why.

Just look at the posts just above regarding the leadership looking out for it's own.

The EAL MEC Chairman rode the sinking ship, going down with it, and ended up teaching junior college on the east coast of Florida.

His replacement jumped ship and ended up as a Direct Entry DAL Captain.

In regards to my point being negated by my "misspelling" ALPA, these points seem to be lost on anyone who "hasn't been there" so it doesn't really matter, does it?
 
Old 5th Jun 2001, 22:44
  #142 (permalink)  
Flare_you_fool!
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Din3G
When is enough to much for these guys and gals. I'll say it again, maybe they would prefer not to return to such an oppressive management system. Their choice given theses circumstances is a simple one, change it or leave, and leave they may well do, together. What makes you think they are not aware of the repercussions?
Regards
FYF

[This message has been edited by Flare_you_fool! (edited 05 June 2001).]
 
Old 5th Jun 2001, 23:33
  #143 (permalink)  
aviator
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DownIn3Green,

I regret that you have had personal experiences with ALPA that have still left you with strong and negative feelings.

It seems that each pilot group haved voted ALPA in as their union, and also have the option to vote ALPA out if they wish.

It also seems that each pilot group decide what is important to them in each negotiation. In Comair's case, the vote on their TA shows that they are willing to take a stand for their beliefs. That may carry a heavy price, and they appearently are willing to take that risk.

Their strike benefit is $1400/month, which is more than the normal salary for a new pilot. This person may feel that he/she has little to loose, where as a senior Captain will be affected more severely.

Where do they go from here? I don't know.
I do understand that a commuter will not be compensated like a major airline. I also know that it is disgraceful to have pilots living below the powerty line and be working to total exhaustion on their long duty days.

Individual experiences aside, as a group of airline pilots, we are better off being represented by organizations like ALPA than being left to fight our battles individually.



[This message has been edited by aviator (edited 05 June 2001).]
 
Old 6th Jun 2001, 01:29
  #144 (permalink)  
ironbutt57
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Aviator....better off than fighting alone most definitely....yes, but after having spent many thousands of dollars of dues on alpo membership and having watched them abandon their responsibility to it's membership so many times, regional and major folks alike, it makes it hard to imagine that pilots particularly regional airline pilots continue to flush their hard-earned money down the alpo toilet...surely there is a better way, as many carriers have discovered...alpo takes care of itself as a business first and foremost....21 years ago i lived in your neck of the woods flying metroliners getting no money, and major abuse from our employer...repeated attempts to have alpo "protection" went unheeded...not interested...not until they spent money during the CO strike of '83 did they become interested in recruiting regional pilot groups into their membership reason MONEY....they were big about warning us to not cross the CO picket line..."you'll be ruined for life" but they were uninterested in us for any other reason...('course look at all those"awful scabs" now) now they need money scabs get the clean bill of health...the hypocrisy is unbelievable...so hence the name alpo "dog food union" from an ex braniff capt (the real braniff)...
 
Old 6th Jun 2001, 01:42
  #145 (permalink)  
DownIn3Green
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Aviator,

No offense taken. You asked and I answered. I also understand your take on the situation.

However, the pilot group will not win this one.

Although $1,400 per month is more than the newest pilots at Comair (and many other regionals) bring home per month, I think that long after the money is gone, they would rather have had their pittance of a salary and the 80-100 hours turbojet time in their back pocket each month instead.

As for the more senior pilots, I still maintain that if the situation is unbearable then they should fly their flights as their consience dictates, while looking for another position.

They gave it a tremendous shot, one that is now being heard in the US Congress and the Bush Administration. I'm afraid that's as close as they're going to get to victory.

[This message has been edited by DownIn3Green (edited 05 June 2001).]
 
Old 6th Jun 2001, 02:23
  #146 (permalink)  
411A
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The Comair guys, many just new and still wet behind the ears, have thrown their jobs away.....and why when they were offered a 56% increase......reminds me of the OZ idiots in 1989, no brains. They deserve ALL they get, which may well be......nothing.
 
Old 6th Jun 2001, 04:15
  #147 (permalink)  
CONVAIR
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Gentlemen: IB57 (Hello!) is absolutely correct. As a pilot with a major small jet operator (ALPA's response to the name regional jet is to now call them small jets so that the regional airline, commuter airline nomeclature is eliminated and thus the the small airline salaries) you guys miss the point. A. ALPA is only a business which survives by expansion B. Comair guys are deserving of the same pay structure as the majors since the responsibilities are the same i.e the formulae should be the same.
The Comair pay is not the total issue. Sure 56% sounds good but I don't hear you guys saying how greedy the DAL/UAL pilots are. As I said before, the issue is not entirely about money but in the way the whole situation is being handled. ALPA will let Comair sink and any other small jet operator since 2% of a their salary is a smaller piece of the pie. My only regret as well as IB57 is that I am not a scab at UAL or CAL making the big bucks. Being scared of the name calling cost me a lot of money and being an ALPA member helped NOT!

In the end, I enjoy flying which is why I started and this other stuff is merely amusement! Remember in the end it really won't matter a hill of beans so get over it.
 
Old 6th Jun 2001, 09:24
  #148 (permalink)  
aviator
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Convair,

I was stunned when reading your statement.

Does ironbutt57 know that you speak on his behalf?

"My only regret as well as IB57 is that I am not a scab at UAL or CAL making the big bucks. Being scared of the name calling cost me a lot of money and being an ALPA member helped NOT!"


 
Old 6th Jun 2001, 09:36
  #149 (permalink)  
411A
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Redfish---
Strike pay will run out soon, that position on the DAL seniority list that the guys "hoped for" will certainly not happen.
And the 56% increase will go to some other company, along with the aircraft. Silly boy. Do you still believe ALPA is your friend?
 
Old 6th Jun 2001, 09:43
  #150 (permalink)  
ironbutt57
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Known the bloke forever...feel the same way...never scabbed...but had lots of chnces...actually had the job in 83 why not our company was forcing violations on us the union would not entertain our efforts to organize...still didn't go right thing to do....now the folks who did are members-in-good-standing...wow what an organization!!! They just gave any pilot who is working under wretched condidions...(and in 83 that was MOST regional pilots) to run across the next picket line.....still wouldn't do it personally...have better things to do with my time...neither would convair...trust me but look at it from where we both stand...and thousands of other ones like us..and i'm sure many present day comair pilots who were flying the navajos and bandeirantes back then..(any left) alpo needs a huge wake-up call...and the formation of a regional pilots union is past due...why don't you regional pilots unite for a proper cause...YOURSELVES!!!!
 
Old 6th Jun 2001, 22:07
  #151 (permalink)  
Brad737
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The "RJ defense association" suing the very union membership being "taxed" for their strike bennies angers many. But we were informed that this is a small group of comairites not representative of the group. Also, the Comair MEC was advised by National that they didn't hold a strong enough suit for an effective strike. Their size, their demands, and the political climate were not conducive to this action. These facts were lost on the Comair pilots' leadership. Damn the torpedoes.
To be fair, I think their demands are reasonable(for the most part). But timing is everything.
As to wanting seniority integration, that's easy. Just buy a navy blue suit with red tie. Submit an app to Delta. Study,study, study, then show up for the tests and interviews. Assuming you've done all of this correctly you will be integrated into the seniorinty list as a new hire. I think the most that could be hoped for is some sort of flow through agreement, wereas the senior pilots are offered a certain percentage of the new hire slots. Or something like that.
 
Old 7th Jun 2001, 01:51
  #152 (permalink)  
DownIn3Green
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I heard today (and this may be just an unfounded rumor) that quite a few of the Comair guys have been picked up by Jet Blue.

If this is true, the question that comes to my mind is why didn't they just interview there and then resign from Comair, rather than throw away their own and their colleagues jobs?

There may be a pilot shortage, but those guys and gals behind the scenes (check-in, reservations, ramp, etc.,) don't have the option to work in another city for a few days a week and then jumpseat home.

A lot of lives thrust into turmoil by these folks...
 
Old 7th Jun 2001, 04:31
  #153 (permalink)  
offblock1
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A411 you must be the sadest piece of s... I have ever read about. In all your postings all you do is slagg of other pilots-wanted to write fellow aviators but you do not have any fellows for that matter. I hope nobody hires you, because than they really got an idiot. Work fo food, be a scab, jump sen. lists, jump commands, boy you are a real asset to this comunity. People like you make me sick.
 
Old 7th Jun 2001, 09:10
  #154 (permalink)  
Ignition Override
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Brad 737 had some interesting points, described in a fairly objective manner, without name-calling.

He described the situation in a detached, comprehensive style.

Hey gang: what if COMAIR flight attendants or mechanics had gone on strike? Even a month would have been a severe hardship for everyone else. Are pilots the only US airline employees who have ever gone on strike? I never worked at COMAIR, and therefore can't quite understand how the pilots felt when they decided to strike, whether they ignored advice from national about possible bad timing or not. But knowing how the FAA rarely comes to the defense of pilots who are forced to operate with the minimum FAR rest/duty rules, even flagrant company violations of such rules, pilot anger is very easy to sympathize with, knowing how easily passenger safety can be compromised.

Just a coincidence that the FAA adopted Reserve Pilot rest regulations (overdue for decades)just after the MD-80 tragedy in Little Rock, when the pilots had been at the end of a long duty period without a scheduled rest period?


Maybe our president decided not to invoke a Pres. Emer. Board in order to settle COMAIR's crisis, due to alleged lobbying and financial contributions (baksheesh) from the Air Trans Assoc., Regional A. Assoc.(the airline mgmt unions) and "ladies/gentlemen (plus or minus a former A-4 pilot)" on a particular Congressional/Senate committee

The Bush Sr. family has been friends of the Frank Lorenzo family for years, but there can be no possible connection between this well-known fact and our President's attitudes toward labor, i.e. anyone who needs more than five hours sleep before a 13-hour duty day flying jets must be a malcontent...

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 June 2001).]
 
Old 7th Jun 2001, 09:20
  #155 (permalink)  
Ignition Override
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Not to "hog" space on Pprune, but what do passengers actually think of pilots who are confronted with the demand to fly two very long days, carrying their "delicate pink bodies" through or around any weather problems with very limited fuel reserves, and onto some short runways at 140 mph, with only seven hours in a quiet or noisy hotel, maybe a bit less?

Do any laymen passengers read these topics, where rest/duty rules: safety, can be (as now seem to be the case at COMAIR) a more contentious issue that tentative salaries/benefits?
 
Old 7th Jun 2001, 10:11
  #156 (permalink)  
ironbutt57
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"baksheesh" good word igoverride..know where you've been before...anyway the problem with faa rest requirements has been a huge one that has been abused by airlines large and small...i myself olmost lost a job over refusing to operte a flight because of fatigue...something the regs require me to do...company's response along the lines of "if you cannot operate to the limit of the regulations...then you are unfit to fly here" so i agree pilots are under CONSTANT pressure, and consequently quite often operate an aircraft when excessively tired...this has always amazed me that again alpo has until recently never forced the issue...if there was ever a good reason to strike these regulations are it...maybe a series of nationwide 24 hr strikes would open some eyes...or each and every pilot who just worked a ridiculous but legal bid pattern should refuse to fly when tired...solidarity is no problem when it comes to pay issues..let's hope it's not the demise of comair...looks like alpo has sold them down the river...who's next?
 
Old 7th Jun 2001, 14:59
  #157 (permalink)  
XL5
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411A has shared some opinions with us, surely as valid as any others but seen from a certain perspective. Perspectives though are wonderful things as they can be shifted, and moving this one only a little paints a different picture.

The empty suits comprising the management of Comair were given a very loud and clear warning shot across the bow by the passage of a near unanimous strike vote by 1300 pilots. Here was a company making money employing many people in a non flight crew capacity, their only crimes being those of showing loyalty to the company and placing faith in the leadership of the suits. Was it therefore not incumbent upon the suits for the good of the company and the welfare of those in its employ to acknowledge that the days of underpaying and overworking the pilot group were now over? With the pilots refusing to play along the game was up, time for the suits to put away their agenda of self serving greed and address the welfare concerns of all employees by paying the pilots an industry standard wage under industry standard working conditions. Shame on the suits.
 
Old 7th Jun 2001, 15:49
  #158 (permalink)  
DownIn3Green
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XL5,

I agree the suits are empty, however, (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) the issue as I understand it is not pay. Comair came up with the goods there. The sticking points were retirement benefits (or lack thereof) and work rules.

Don't know much about retirement, as I don't get one where I work (self funded, just like my health insurance) but the work rules are a serious issue.

At a bottom feeder 121 outfit where I worked a few years ago (think S. Fla with call sign Panther) an F/O was pressured into taking a trip he felt was illegal according to the FAR's. After he succumbed to pressure from the crew scheduler (who held our paychecks in his hands) and took the trip, the same scheduler called the Feds and "self-disclosed" this violation of the FAR's so as not to get the company a violation.

Now that sucks big time.

If Comair wants to work it's pilots right up to the limits of the FAR's, an unintential violation is not only possible, but probable.
 
Old 7th Jun 2001, 16:59
  #159 (permalink)  
Wino
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Now you got it!

I have been talking to the newhires at my airline (many of which worked for Comair till recently).

The TA that was voted down did away with virtually all work rules that were in place. That is how they got the higher dollar numbers btw. There was virtually no limit on what the company could force you to fly.

As this strike has been about work rules and retirement all along, the TA was a non starter and was simply put out for public comsumption. The vote btw went more than 10 to 1 against it. The 1 was made up predominantly of newhires who didn't know any better and were only looking at Comair as a stepping stone.

Nowhere has there been a demand for integration of the seniority lists in this strike by the Comair pilots. That was put out by the Delta Management to make it look like the Comair pilots are striking for seniority number at Delta which is not true and actually against what many of the more senior comair pilots want. (They just want to stay in their house at Cincy and don't want the risk of being bumped out by a more senior mainline pilot).

The constant uninformed insults hurled by 411 and 757 are just abnoxious and counter productive.

Cheers
Wino
 
Old 7th Jun 2001, 17:26
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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>>Nowhere has there been a demand for integration of the seniority lists in this strike by the Comair pilots.<<

No, but the Comair pilots (along with the other Delta commuters) did sue to force their way onto the mainline seniority list last year. It didn't work but it did cause a little bad blood between Comair's pilots and the RD's that has come back to haunt them in their hour of need.
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