Ryanair & Air Arran Bomb Threat Diversions to PIK (merged)
I have to say I don't think much of the "You don't need to know" and "We know better" attitude which some security 'experts' seem to think is the way ahead.
As flightcrew, we try to make decisions using all the available information. If those 'in the know' deliberately withold such information, then logically we are going to come to a somewhat different conclusion and act on it. How can we do anything else?
A bomb threat is either believable or not. If it IS assessed as genuine enough to warrant an immediate diversion, then the first action to be taken after the a/c comes to a halt is to disembark/evacuate everyone as quickly as possible and talk about it afterwards. At a safe distance!
If these sort of incidents repeat themselves, we may start to find information being withheld from the other end, i.e. flight crew will not inform the authorities of the full extent of a problem in case they are mishandled. There is very little an outside agency can do to help those on board an IED-threatened aircraft and that 'help' certainly won't be coming from intercepting fighters...
As flightcrew, we try to make decisions using all the available information. If those 'in the know' deliberately withold such information, then logically we are going to come to a somewhat different conclusion and act on it. How can we do anything else?
A bomb threat is either believable or not. If it IS assessed as genuine enough to warrant an immediate diversion, then the first action to be taken after the a/c comes to a halt is to disembark/evacuate everyone as quickly as possible and talk about it afterwards. At a safe distance!
If these sort of incidents repeat themselves, we may start to find information being withheld from the other end, i.e. flight crew will not inform the authorities of the full extent of a problem in case they are mishandled. There is very little an outside agency can do to help those on board an IED-threatened aircraft and that 'help' certainly won't be coming from intercepting fighters...
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Prune radar, l don`t want to be argumentative but a tube train has lots of doors and they open on a regular basis.
lnstead of the semantics has anyone got a clue as to how this silliness can be stopped ?
Has anything gone bang ? No.
ls there a serious threat of something going bang ? No.
Will daft kids do this again and dilute the response ? Bl**dy right they will.
And for those looking for the wrong inflection to give cause to attack look at the problem please and not the messenger. A couple of you could club together to get an IQ in double figures, couldn`t you ?
lnstead of the semantics has anyone got a clue as to how this silliness can be stopped ?
Has anything gone bang ? No.
ls there a serious threat of something going bang ? No.
Will daft kids do this again and dilute the response ? Bl**dy right they will.
And for those looking for the wrong inflection to give cause to attack look at the problem please and not the messenger. A couple of you could club together to get an IQ in double figures, couldn`t you ?
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Wotsyors:
What makes you say that? Is security around the worlds airports really THAT much better than it was before 9/11, before Lockerbie.
I don't think so.
Of course there's a threat to commercial aviation.
Though possibly not gliders (added to include an insult which seems customary on this thread now)
ls there a serious threat of something going bang ? No.
I don't think so.
Of course there's a threat to commercial aviation.
Though possibly not gliders (added to include an insult which seems customary on this thread now)
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We see these incidents from our own point of view as flight crew.
The essential difference between 'our' point of view and the police's is the pivot point in this debate.
WE wish to see the situation resolved quickly and safely. Thus a prompt diversion followed by a prompt disembarkation is the only correct course of action. After all if it is 'worth' diverting for then the a/c must be emptied even though loss of life in a ground explosion will probably not be as destructive as the same explosion airborne.
The police, on the other hand, have completely different priorities.
Their main objective is not to do anything which could expose themselves to criticism or liability after the event. In other words if a cop is killed or injured during the incident, and the police are seen to have acted carelessly and this led to the injury or death, court action will surely follow. This must be avoided at ALL costs.
This same approach led to the police leaving a woman who had been shot and wounded, to die, rather than enter a house, despite being repeatedly assured that the gunmen had left the scene. (it was a multiple shooting at a BBQ in England a few years ago).
The essential difference between 'our' point of view and the police's is the pivot point in this debate.
WE wish to see the situation resolved quickly and safely. Thus a prompt diversion followed by a prompt disembarkation is the only correct course of action. After all if it is 'worth' diverting for then the a/c must be emptied even though loss of life in a ground explosion will probably not be as destructive as the same explosion airborne.
The police, on the other hand, have completely different priorities.
Their main objective is not to do anything which could expose themselves to criticism or liability after the event. In other words if a cop is killed or injured during the incident, and the police are seen to have acted carelessly and this led to the injury or death, court action will surely follow. This must be avoided at ALL costs.
This same approach led to the police leaving a woman who had been shot and wounded, to die, rather than enter a house, despite being repeatedly assured that the gunmen had left the scene. (it was a multiple shooting at a BBQ in England a few years ago).
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I agree with what you say, but couldn't police have evacuated the acft anyway and left it for a couple of hours before approaching? I see no logical explanation for what happened. They can protect both their officers - which is understandably a concern, but also pax.
I have to say I'm particularly disappointed by IAA's washing of its hands; these are Irish registered aircraft, carrying Irish nationals. Does the National Aviation Security Council have a view on this? What would it do? Have any objections been raised at a diplomatic level?
OK, what has happened on this occasion has been the work of some pitiful nothing creating trouble ... but what if it actually happened and a bomb did go off; if this happens again, will need some policy in place. Will need to seek agreement from UK authorities that either (a) Irish registered acft able to get to Irish airport and issue will be dealt with professionally there, OR (b) the issue will be dealt with in the proper way at a UK airport (and the nearest one, too - not diverting hundreds of miles to PIK).
It's time for Dept of Transport/IAA to develop a backbone on this issue. The IAA has a responsibility, whether it wants to carry it out or not; it can't simply wash its hands of it.
I have to say I'm particularly disappointed by IAA's washing of its hands; these are Irish registered aircraft, carrying Irish nationals. Does the National Aviation Security Council have a view on this? What would it do? Have any objections been raised at a diplomatic level?
OK, what has happened on this occasion has been the work of some pitiful nothing creating trouble ... but what if it actually happened and a bomb did go off; if this happens again, will need some policy in place. Will need to seek agreement from UK authorities that either (a) Irish registered acft able to get to Irish airport and issue will be dealt with professionally there, OR (b) the issue will be dealt with in the proper way at a UK airport (and the nearest one, too - not diverting hundreds of miles to PIK).
It's time for Dept of Transport/IAA to develop a backbone on this issue. The IAA has a responsibility, whether it wants to carry it out or not; it can't simply wash its hands of it.
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Originally Posted by akerosid
I have to say I'm particularly disappointed by IAA's washing of its hands; these are Irish registered aircraft, carrying Irish nationals. Does the National Aviation Security Council have a view on this? What would it do? Have any objections been raised at a diplomatic level?
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Originally Posted by akerosid
It's time for Dept of Transport/IAA to develop a backbone on this issue. The IAA has a responsibility, whether it wants to carry it out or not; it can't simply wash its hands of it.
You're a real funny guy!!
Invertebrates cannot develop a spine, no matter how far along the evolutionary path they aspire to be. Period. The IAA will continue to fudge and dodge issues like they have since day one. All it serves to do is top up the pensions of geriatric Fungus and Whineair pilots.
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The PIC has total authority over the aircraft and contents as is given under ICAO annex's under international law. Also this is reiterated under FAA FAR'S, JAA JAR OPS, CAA and Air Navigation Order and Company rules with the OPS manual and security manual's if one is published and any other rule or law you want to state. “PIC/ Captain in a Security situation are the ultimate and final authority for the safety of the aircraft”. That is as plain and simple as it comes.
PLOD and SPOOKS need to be aware of this.
Obviously they are lacking in there training if they do not. And they should be made aware of the law here. No if or but about parking brakes or such rubbish.
If PLOD can override your decisions on the ground what is stopping him in the air? Where does it end not just in a security situation but in an emergency?
This is not a committee, the buck stops with you.
What rubbish about shooting people if you disembark the A/C by whatever means air stairs if fitted or slide. Please stop stupid scare mongering. If an evacuation was ordered do you think this would not have been pre communicated to the authorities? "NOTIFY THE TOWER/ AUTHORIES" is in the evacuation checks. I think it would have been communicated along time before this point in the evacuation anyway.
No ware have I read that you have a licence to kill and ask questions later. Even if Sir Ian Blair and his chums think otherwise! They will answer to their mistakes in due course......
If we are not aware of all the facts well it is your duty to make us aware so that PIC'S can come to decisions in consultation with security services in this type of situation. I am not talking about a hijacking here!
A calm measured response is what is needed in this type of situation by all parties and jumping for joy on the slides is maybe what is not needed but I know that is the Head DRIVERS decision not PLODS and SPOOKS.
PLOD and SPOOKS need to be aware of this.
Obviously they are lacking in there training if they do not. And they should be made aware of the law here. No if or but about parking brakes or such rubbish. If PLOD can override your decisions on the ground what is stopping him in the air? Where does it end not just in a security situation but in an emergency?
This is not a committee, the buck stops with you.
What rubbish about shooting people if you disembark the A/C by whatever means air stairs if fitted or slide. Please stop stupid scare mongering. If an evacuation was ordered do you think this would not have been pre communicated to the authorities? "NOTIFY THE TOWER/ AUTHORIES" is in the evacuation checks. I think it would have been communicated along time before this point in the evacuation anyway.
No ware have I read that you have a licence to kill and ask questions later. Even if Sir Ian Blair and his chums think otherwise! They will answer to their mistakes in due course......
If we are not aware of all the facts well it is your duty to make us aware so that PIC'S can come to decisions in consultation with security services in this type of situation. I am not talking about a hijacking here!
A calm measured response is what is needed in this type of situation by all parties and jumping for joy on the slides is maybe what is not needed but I know that is the Head DRIVERS decision not PLODS and SPOOKS.
Last edited by alibaba; 20th Apr 2006 at 13:05.
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Brain fade, I wasn't there so I can't really comment on the details and what conversations might have taken place on R/T or what I would have done. 
I do think that responsibility rests on oneself though. As quite a few security manuals in previous and current companies would back up, as well as all the other documents and legislation at our disposal.
Common sense is the most important thing in this type of situation. Each party concerned have there own objectives and agenda's but the law states pretty clearly who is ultimately responsible.
I do think that responsibility rests on oneself though. As quite a few security manuals in previous and current companies would back up, as well as all the other documents and legislation at our disposal.
Common sense is the most important thing in this type of situation. Each party concerned have there own objectives and agenda's but the law states pretty clearly who is ultimately responsible.
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I have to say I'm particularly disappointed by IAA's washing of its hands;
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RYR/REA security threat
Maybe the low cost airlines should concentrate on cleaning their a/c on turnaround, and removing all items from seat back pockets. I don't believe that the perpetrators of these hoaxes were actually travelling on the flights concerned - more likely that the "scribbled notes" were left by passengers on the previous sector(s). The last time I flew Ryanair I was appalled at the amount of rubbish on the a/c from the previous sector.
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Originally Posted by skyman1
Maybe the low cost airlines should concentrate on cleaning their a/c on turnaround, and removing all items from seat back pockets. I don't believe that the perpetrators of these hoaxes were actually travelling on the flights concerned - more likely that the "scribbled notes" were left by passengers on the previous sector(s). The last time I flew Ryanair I was appalled at the amount of rubbish on the a/c from the previous sector.
