Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
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Originally Posted by JamesA
My own most ridiculous story - Doing military charters, sometimes we carry a courier. Going through security, the man handfs over his sidearm to security staff. Passes through arch, bell goes off, side arm is returned and frisk is carried out. A nail file is taken from courier. We all stand around in amazement squared. Moral of story - guns are OK, but it is not done to have manicured nails. Of course this was in land of George Dubaya, leader of ......
Whether a nailfile is a weapon is specified by the state - you can't hold the individual doing the search responsible for that. They aren't supposed to make judgement calls, they are supposed to follow rules. One place I've worked the rule is that they shoot you if you don't stop within three paces of the checkpoint on request. Try the "I don't see why this rule should apply to me" routine on them - they just don't care whether you see why the rule applies to you, nor should they.
The man was accountable for what happened to his gun. If he turned up without it at the other end it would be obvious where hijackers got their gun from (had there been a hijack from that airport).
But if he was carrying a concealed weapon in addition to his gun, he could pass it on to somebody else airside who could use it to hijack a different plane, and nobody would know he'd done it. That's why the policy is for him to be searched. That's why pilots have to be searched too - otherwise they could carry weapons for people to use on other planes.
The reason security staff don't have discretion and are expected to follow rules is amply demonstrated by this thread. Even the comparatively well educated correspondents here exhibit a dangerous failure of imagination in what constitutes a threat. People have thought long and hard constructing security policies. They may be wrong, but there haven't been decent arguments against their decisions here. If ait=rcrew had the last word, aircrew would be exempt from search and we would all be less safe.
Plastic PPRuNer
"If ait=rcrew had the last word, aircrew would be exempt from search and we would all be less safe."
Please explain why we'd be less safe. I can't get my head round the logic of "disarming" the very crew who will be flying the aircraft.
Are they likely to attack themselves? If a baddie has got into the RHS then he can deck the captain with any number of nasty things in the cockpit. If the PIC is a baddie then he/she can do anything they like.
I don't understand.
Please explain why we'd be less safe. I can't get my head round the logic of "disarming" the very crew who will be flying the aircraft.
Are they likely to attack themselves? If a baddie has got into the RHS then he can deck the captain with any number of nasty things in the cockpit. If the PIC is a baddie then he/she can do anything they like.
I don't understand.
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I suppose searching flight crew is pointless really. An ID check would suffice. Personally I do not deal with searching flight crew as I work on security for individual US bound aircraft. We only have to check IDs of flight crew against a list. I'd imagine flight crew are searched just to shut up the 20,000 passengers a day who'd say, "Why am I getting searched and they are getting through?"
I've always found that the rules for confiscating items changes by the day. One of our airlines decided 'Ok right, lighters... are allowed. Actually no they're not allowed. Err... yes no yes no... Ok they can take lighters but only one.' Would you believe that!! The other daft one I find is that a broken mirror is not allowed, but an intact mirror is allowed. Anyone else see a flaw in that...?
I've always found that the rules for confiscating items changes by the day. One of our airlines decided 'Ok right, lighters... are allowed. Actually no they're not allowed. Err... yes no yes no... Ok they can take lighters but only one.' Would you believe that!! The other daft one I find is that a broken mirror is not allowed, but an intact mirror is allowed. Anyone else see a flaw in that...?
Plastic PPRuNer
".....an unscreened item (e.g penknife) might fall out of a pocket or bag & be picked up by a hardened terrorist...."
Yup, I've seen 'em - hanging around crew transit areas flight after flight, hoping.....just hoping......"I know that One Day My Penknife Will Come"
I suppose that they've "won" really - disrupted an entire industry, cost nations millions of $$$, annoyed and discomfited uncounted numbers of people, created sympathy for their cause, increased the love of Islam in the world.....
Bit of a Phyrric victory methinks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
****, this stripping out of <CR> in Preview is starting to annoy me!
Yup, I've seen 'em - hanging around crew transit areas flight after flight, hoping.....just hoping......"I know that One Day My Penknife Will Come"
I suppose that they've "won" really - disrupted an entire industry, cost nations millions of $$$, annoyed and discomfited uncounted numbers of people, created sympathy for their cause, increased the love of Islam in the world.....
Bit of a Phyrric victory methinks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
****, this stripping out of <CR> in Preview is starting to annoy me!
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I liked the way one helped me empty my pockets of mobile phone, lighter and car keys from my jacket pockets to go through the X-ray machine and then asked me to put my jacket through the machine. They couldnt explain why the items couldn't have stayed in my pockets but tried to argue that the machine 'could see better' when the items where not in my jacket. I laughed out loud.
Originally Posted by Beausoleil
If ait=rcrew had the last word, aircrew would be exempt from search and we would all be less safe.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
"Things said in jest...."
On a recent video sent to me I saw the comedian espouse the uselessness of these security checks.
Instead, as each passenger passes through, give him/her a baseball bat..and THEN let the furkin terrorist(s) make a move.
KERRRBLAMOoo.
Security are now about 5 years behind Al Quaeda, if they think - in light of the strengthened cockpit doors, and their coded access that requires confirmation from the flight deck, to permit entry - that aircraft hijackings are on the agenda.
Assuming the ridiculous for one minute, that 99% of aircraft passengers are hijacking terrorists, and that the 99% manage to to get their concealed weapons/bombs past security and onto an aircraft. UNLESS they can gain access to the flight deck - which they will NOT be able to - their mission will be fruitless.
Assuming 1 of the cockpit crew is a terrorist...that being the case, s/he won't require a weapon to render the other crew member useless.
If BOTH crew members are terrorists, then they won't need carry weapons, as they be working in unison.
I got quite p!ssed off a couple of days ago, when my F/O was forced to walk through the security scanner 3 times - twice with his shoes off - and even then, given a full body feel (which he admitted to enjoying, as the "feeler" was an attractive 20-something year old, nubile nymph).
The "joke" is, this guy is the Japanese kick-boxing [Muay Thai] champion in his class in Japan!
On a recent video sent to me I saw the comedian espouse the uselessness of these security checks.
Instead, as each passenger passes through, give him/her a baseball bat..and THEN let the furkin terrorist(s) make a move.
KERRRBLAMOoo.
Security are now about 5 years behind Al Quaeda, if they think - in light of the strengthened cockpit doors, and their coded access that requires confirmation from the flight deck, to permit entry - that aircraft hijackings are on the agenda.
Assuming the ridiculous for one minute, that 99% of aircraft passengers are hijacking terrorists, and that the 99% manage to to get their concealed weapons/bombs past security and onto an aircraft. UNLESS they can gain access to the flight deck - which they will NOT be able to - their mission will be fruitless.
Assuming 1 of the cockpit crew is a terrorist...that being the case, s/he won't require a weapon to render the other crew member useless.
If BOTH crew members are terrorists, then they won't need carry weapons, as they be working in unison.
I got quite p!ssed off a couple of days ago, when my F/O was forced to walk through the security scanner 3 times - twice with his shoes off - and even then, given a full body feel (which he admitted to enjoying, as the "feeler" was an attractive 20-something year old, nubile nymph).
The "joke" is, this guy is the Japanese kick-boxing [Muay Thai] champion in his class in Japan!
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See the latest joke at LHR and LGW is that for ground staff, they are not allowed to wear metal capped safety shoes. The BAA have said that it is to stop the alarm going off, and prevent injury to the security staff due to having to bend down when 'patting down' the 'offending' staff member. Poor little luvies, musn't let them bend down...oh and if you wear a belt it must be undone so they can feel around it OK !!! Cant wait to see a big 'large' person go through, have to undo his belt, have his (or her) trousers start to fall, go to hold them up, get told off as their arms arn't outstreatched!
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Yet they still don't use a wand to find out what went bleep. They may have found the non metalic nail clipers or emery board left in a pocket, but that machien went bleep, that's why you searched me, not as one of your additional random pat downs, which should be done when the machine stays quiet.
This is what makes it a farce.
This is what makes it a farce.
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BA website now mentions advice to customers that "due to increased BAA LGW/LHR security" people must now remove their belts prior to passing through the screener. It also says that laptops must be removed from their bags/cases.
When did all this come in then?
More changes and measures being introduced at BAA. I wonder how many more?
When did all this come in then?
More changes and measures being introduced at BAA. I wonder how many more?
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Travelling through Turin last week I got my Gilette Mach 3 razor blades taken from me by security. Not a big problem as I bought a new pack in the airside shop to replace them. Good job Turin Airport isn't going to be used for the 2006 Winter Olympics or anything......
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... but it's not about security - it's about humiliation and it's MUCH more fun getting at someone in uniform than your average man in the street.
Quite why you would want to attack somebody with a laptop or nailcilppers when you are about to fly 400 tons over the densest populated real estate in the world I don't know?
(I just paxed through LGW with my JBL Creature II in a black canvas bag complete with transformer; associated wiring weird shaped woofers etc.. and no query at all. Maybe I should try it in uniform next time?)
Quite why you would want to attack somebody with a laptop or nailcilppers when you are about to fly 400 tons over the densest populated real estate in the world I don't know?
(I just paxed through LGW with my JBL Creature II in a black canvas bag complete with transformer; associated wiring weird shaped woofers etc.. and no query at all. Maybe I should try it in uniform next time?)
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Intelligence Test
Hi All,
Love this, and wonder if the following might shed any light on the beloved TSA policies:
A long time ago I was on an RAF detachment in Keflavik, which is admittedly a fairly high security base. I landed in my jet and was walking in towards the facilities when I realised my gloves were still in the cockpit. Having said high to the USAF guard and chatted briefly in good nature about how much it must suck to stand stag beside a line of aircraft at -30c you might imagine how surprised I was when I turned around and went to walk back towards the jet, only to be looking down the barrel of his rifle.
"Don't cross the line, Sir" he said.
I laughed and said "Just gonna get my gloves"
"Don't cross the line, Sir" he said.
"But i need to get back to the aircraft, you've just seen me leave it"
"Sir, if you walk on I will open fire"
Thing is, I had crossd the painted red dividing line, and he was under orders not to let anyone cross it towards the aircraft without an escort. So I had to walk all the way in to the C building, get an escort and be driven back out to my jet again. When I did so the guard was nice as pie.
Now, I understand that the guard was only following his orders. Fair enough, but I was told by one of their Aircrew that the guards life is simple and leave's no room for interpretation, and that I was lucky to get a second warning; they have an intelligence test, and if they pass it they can't be guards.
I wonder whether the NSA target these experienced personnel for recruitment when they leave the Armed Forces?
Trotts
Love this, and wonder if the following might shed any light on the beloved TSA policies:
A long time ago I was on an RAF detachment in Keflavik, which is admittedly a fairly high security base. I landed in my jet and was walking in towards the facilities when I realised my gloves were still in the cockpit. Having said high to the USAF guard and chatted briefly in good nature about how much it must suck to stand stag beside a line of aircraft at -30c you might imagine how surprised I was when I turned around and went to walk back towards the jet, only to be looking down the barrel of his rifle.
"Don't cross the line, Sir" he said.
I laughed and said "Just gonna get my gloves"
"Don't cross the line, Sir" he said.
"But i need to get back to the aircraft, you've just seen me leave it"
"Sir, if you walk on I will open fire"
Thing is, I had crossd the painted red dividing line, and he was under orders not to let anyone cross it towards the aircraft without an escort. So I had to walk all the way in to the C building, get an escort and be driven back out to my jet again. When I did so the guard was nice as pie.
Now, I understand that the guard was only following his orders. Fair enough, but I was told by one of their Aircrew that the guards life is simple and leave's no room for interpretation, and that I was lucky to get a second warning; they have an intelligence test, and if they pass it they can't be guards.
I wonder whether the NSA target these experienced personnel for recruitment when they leave the Armed Forces?
Trotts
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Dear Capt M,
Please feel sorry for those gaijin on the blue team. In Osaka WE have to cross security twice to get to our aircraft, and then get checked again to get from the aircraft back to the office. At least the girl who does the pat down is cute!!
The Rest of the World,
The Japanese are just catching up to the upgrades in security that North America went through in 2002 (I can't speak of elsewhere), except that they are doing it the Japanese way. So.... even our Bento (lunch) boxes are scanned now, but meanwhile there are gaping holes you could drive a truck through.
We have to live with security, and (inevitably?) it will be applied by people with minimal training. However, it would be nice if someone would think about the system they were setting up and at least close the obvious gaps.
I just hope that the security we have keeps the people we don't want out of the system. Ganbatte!
Please feel sorry for those gaijin on the blue team. In Osaka WE have to cross security twice to get to our aircraft, and then get checked again to get from the aircraft back to the office. At least the girl who does the pat down is cute!!
The Rest of the World,
The Japanese are just catching up to the upgrades in security that North America went through in 2002 (I can't speak of elsewhere), except that they are doing it the Japanese way. So.... even our Bento (lunch) boxes are scanned now, but meanwhile there are gaping holes you could drive a truck through.
We have to live with security, and (inevitably?) it will be applied by people with minimal training. However, it would be nice if someone would think about the system they were setting up and at least close the obvious gaps.
I just hope that the security we have keeps the people we don't want out of the system. Ganbatte!
Last edited by AtoBsafely; 26th Jan 2006 at 12:00.
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How hard can it be?
Just play the game gentlemen.
There are crazier things going on in aviation than just walking through a metal detector.
If a pax uses his mobile phone on board, we pilots are all ready to crucify him.
Why? No one knows for sure. But we sure like to give'm hell for not following the rules. (Apparently we are as much as a jobsworth as a 'lower paid' baggage screener!!)
Just play the game gentlemen.
There are crazier things going on in aviation than just walking through a metal detector.
If a pax uses his mobile phone on board, we pilots are all ready to crucify him.
Why? No one knows for sure. But we sure like to give'm hell for not following the rules. (Apparently we are as much as a jobsworth as a 'lower paid' baggage screener!!)
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Originally Posted by PENKO
How hard can it be?
Just play the game gentlemen.
There are crazier things going on in aviation than just walking through a metal detector.
If a pax uses his mobile phone on board, we pilots are all ready to crucify him.
Why? No one knows for sure. But we sure like to give'm hell for not following the rules. (Apparently we are as much as a jobsworth as a 'lower paid' baggage screener!!)
Just play the game gentlemen.
There are crazier things going on in aviation than just walking through a metal detector.
If a pax uses his mobile phone on board, we pilots are all ready to crucify him.
Why? No one knows for sure. But we sure like to give'm hell for not following the rules. (Apparently we are as much as a jobsworth as a 'lower paid' baggage screener!!)
Next thing is that some of the more reactionary fellows on here will be wanting "journos" to run a story about how bad it all is.
Get some perspective folks
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As an LAME I often work at different airports within Germany. I noticed that the interpretation of the new EU security rules varies with the different states (as in Germany police and security is a state, not a federal matter).
E.g. in one airport I've got to identify myself with an electronic fingerprint (no chance of another person using my badge, if the fingerprint doesn't match the badge the door won't open), but there is no physical search.
At another airport everybody who enters the "critical area" (passenger ramp, pax waiting rooms, baggage sorting rooms, everywhere where searched pax and their baggage is present), we need to get patted down in front of the passengers, which is especially funny if you carry your normal hardware (Leatherman tool, pocket knife, screw drivers etc.) in your pocket, followed by the stupid questions if I need the tools to do my job. Or the incredible look in face of the security agent when I pushed my toolbox (full of heavy, sharp or pointed bits of metal) through the x-ray scanner.
We get searched at least 5-6 times every day. On the other hand this airport has security holes you could drive a truck through.
I think the whole thing is about politics and "perceived security", to make the punters feel well and the politicos to show that they are doing something.
Like e.g. declaring the area around the government buildings in Berlin a no-fly zone (it is just about two flying minutes north of THF). They even wanted the Luftwaffe to base Hawk missiles around there, until a military officer explained to the politicians what would happen if they started launching AA missiles in the middle of a city.
Jan
E.g. in one airport I've got to identify myself with an electronic fingerprint (no chance of another person using my badge, if the fingerprint doesn't match the badge the door won't open), but there is no physical search.
At another airport everybody who enters the "critical area" (passenger ramp, pax waiting rooms, baggage sorting rooms, everywhere where searched pax and their baggage is present), we need to get patted down in front of the passengers, which is especially funny if you carry your normal hardware (Leatherman tool, pocket knife, screw drivers etc.) in your pocket, followed by the stupid questions if I need the tools to do my job. Or the incredible look in face of the security agent when I pushed my toolbox (full of heavy, sharp or pointed bits of metal) through the x-ray scanner.
We get searched at least 5-6 times every day. On the other hand this airport has security holes you could drive a truck through.
I think the whole thing is about politics and "perceived security", to make the punters feel well and the politicos to show that they are doing something.
Like e.g. declaring the area around the government buildings in Berlin a no-fly zone (it is just about two flying minutes north of THF). They even wanted the Luftwaffe to base Hawk missiles around there, until a military officer explained to the politicians what would happen if they started launching AA missiles in the middle of a city.
Jan
Banana,
Isn't that exactly what this thread is about?? Keeping it in perspective? Maybe words better projected towards the security officials.
As for the media, most have nothing but contempt for the aviation writers.
Isn't that exactly what this thread is about?? Keeping it in perspective? Maybe words better projected towards the security officials.
As for the media, most have nothing but contempt for the aviation writers.