Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Agreed, SLFguy.
However, the point many of us are TRYING to get across here, is not that we ("Gods of the skies") object to a security check, but that if WE are going to be subjected to it, to decrease the risk of a threat, then EVERYONE who goes airside must also be properly screened, because the tech. crew are the LEAST likely potential threat.
However, the point many of us are TRYING to get across here, is not that we ("Gods of the skies") object to a security check, but that if WE are going to be subjected to it, to decrease the risk of a threat, then EVERYONE who goes airside must also be properly screened, because the tech. crew are the LEAST likely potential threat.
Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
It’s not the security check itself that annoys me so much, but rather the time it takes out of your pre flight preparation on long haul flights. It takes a lot longer to get crew and pax on an aircraft these days and the airline companies (or at least the ones I have worked for), refuse to acknowledge this in our planned duty times. The same for drug and alcohol testing! Fair enough in principle but it should be reflected in our pre or post flight duty time.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Kaptin M
But everyone going airside (in the UK)IS screened, including engineers! catering staff and cleaners. Both they and their equpitment are subject to search.
The only exception that I am aware of is poice officers, and that may not be the case still, but it was at LHR before 9/11. Although we did have to walk through the metal dectectors (pointless, and actually annoyed the pax and other staff more than achieve anything).
But everyone going airside (in the UK)IS screened, including engineers! catering staff and cleaners. Both they and their equpitment are subject to search.
The only exception that I am aware of is poice officers, and that may not be the case still, but it was at LHR before 9/11. Although we did have to walk through the metal dectectors (pointless, and actually annoyed the pax and other staff more than achieve anything).
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Quote leeyjet:
You all chose to work in the industry so have to accept that security screening is a major part of it, so rather than hassling those low paid chaps on the screening points, why not just go with the flow and get on with it, it actually takes more time to argue with them than it would to go with the flow
1) Firstly, when I started we weren´t checked at all
2) I don´t argue with screeners. They do their job.
3) I´m an air taxi pilot, that means that on an average day I pass the checkpoints roughly 6 to 10 times. When you are searched 10 times a day, it becomes simply unnerving. I can´t comment for other countries, but in Germany, to get an airside pass, they run a check on you, that reveals EVERYTHING that in the files on you. Secret services of all sorts check you, the police does etc etc. If one would fail this background check or refuses it, he would get his licence pulled. Who else would loose everything? If you´re a cleaner you can clean offices instead of aircraft. I can´t fly trucks or boats...
Next question, why the f... aren´t train passengers (and drivers) check. Anyone remebembering Madrid and London? Where is the check on your religious background and mind if you´re driving a truck, carrying maybe 40 tons of highly explosive fuel? (anyone remembering Djerba?) Or if you are working with chemicals?
9/11 was awful and IT WAS ON TV. LIVE, more or less. For weeks we saw the pictures again and again. THAT IS why "something" is done - no other reason whatsoever. IMO.
You all chose to work in the industry so have to accept that security screening is a major part of it, so rather than hassling those low paid chaps on the screening points, why not just go with the flow and get on with it, it actually takes more time to argue with them than it would to go with the flow
1) Firstly, when I started we weren´t checked at all
2) I don´t argue with screeners. They do their job.
3) I´m an air taxi pilot, that means that on an average day I pass the checkpoints roughly 6 to 10 times. When you are searched 10 times a day, it becomes simply unnerving. I can´t comment for other countries, but in Germany, to get an airside pass, they run a check on you, that reveals EVERYTHING that in the files on you. Secret services of all sorts check you, the police does etc etc. If one would fail this background check or refuses it, he would get his licence pulled. Who else would loose everything? If you´re a cleaner you can clean offices instead of aircraft. I can´t fly trucks or boats...
Next question, why the f... aren´t train passengers (and drivers) check. Anyone remebembering Madrid and London? Where is the check on your religious background and mind if you´re driving a truck, carrying maybe 40 tons of highly explosive fuel? (anyone remembering Djerba?) Or if you are working with chemicals?
9/11 was awful and IT WAS ON TV. LIVE, more or less. For weeks we saw the pictures again and again. THAT IS why "something" is done - no other reason whatsoever. IMO.
Last edited by His dudeness; 13th Jan 2006 at 18:44.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Originally Posted by Kaptin M
Agreed, SLFguy.
the tech. crew are the LEAST likely potential threat.
the tech. crew are the LEAST likely potential threat.
When the ID goes biometric, with the data stored on a central DB, there's a case, until then it's only safe to assume people aren't who they appear to be.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Originally Posted by paulo
When the ID goes biometric, with the data stored on a central DB, there's a case, until then it's only safe to assume people aren't who they appear to be.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Originally Posted by beaver eager
Now that's the first decent argument in favour that I've heard so far. Unfortunately, it falls down slightly on the question of whether it is possible for an imposter to mix with real crew successfully without being noticed.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Leezyjet
1)when I chose to work in the industry we didn't need a CAT scan 
and full body/hair search to go through security.
2)I've never seen anyone arguing with the Security Agents. It would be pointless, unless you want to be on the news.
You all chose to work in the industry so have to accept that security screening is a major part of it, so rather than hassling those low paid chaps on the screening points, why not just go with the flow and get on with it, it actually takes more time to argue with them than it would to go with the flow
and full body/hair search to go through security. 2)I've never seen anyone arguing with the Security Agents. It would be pointless, unless you want to be on the news.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Several posts have mentioned the fact that aircrew are security screened.
This argument does not hold much water due to the fact that most terror group have SLEEPERS that do not rear their ugly head until the last minute so, they will be an unknown to police and special branch systems.
These checks may seem pointless to some but if they prevent security loop holes then i'm happy.
I reckon Another incident similar to 9/11 will put alot of pilots out of work
This argument does not hold much water due to the fact that most terror group have SLEEPERS that do not rear their ugly head until the last minute so, they will be an unknown to police and special branch systems.
These checks may seem pointless to some but if they prevent security loop holes then i'm happy.
I reckon Another incident similar to 9/11 will put alot of pilots out of work
Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
bjcc
Everyone in the UK may be screened but here in the land of Oz, where our PM has to breathe through is rectum, because his heads so far up George Dubya's, it's only pax & friends and TECH/CABIN crew who are screened!!!!
I regularly arrive at my aircraft to find that the catering supervisor has been seated in row 1 for up to half an hour, unsupervised, reading the paper. S/he hasn't been screened, neither has their van, nor have the catering loaders, or baggies, or engineers, or ramp staff, etc etc etc. Any other airline employee with an access card can legally bypass screening unless they're boarding the aeroplane for the purpose of flight.
Now, others have stated that the screening is to stop 'pilots' from smuggling a weapon into the sterile area and then giving it to another person. If this reason was valid, then all persons would be screened.
This whole charade makes a mockery of the so called security measures, which I believe are only in place so that governments can fool "joe public", and them selves, that they're doing something.
Everyone in the UK may be screened but here in the land of Oz, where our PM has to breathe through is rectum, because his heads so far up George Dubya's, it's only pax & friends and TECH/CABIN crew who are screened!!!!
I regularly arrive at my aircraft to find that the catering supervisor has been seated in row 1 for up to half an hour, unsupervised, reading the paper. S/he hasn't been screened, neither has their van, nor have the catering loaders, or baggies, or engineers, or ramp staff, etc etc etc. Any other airline employee with an access card can legally bypass screening unless they're boarding the aeroplane for the purpose of flight.
Now, others have stated that the screening is to stop 'pilots' from smuggling a weapon into the sterile area and then giving it to another person. If this reason was valid, then all persons would be screened.
This whole charade makes a mockery of the so called security measures, which I believe are only in place so that governments can fool "joe public", and them selves, that they're doing something.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
As stated by others if the flight crew is searched than everybody needs to be searched,which means the screeners need to be screened every time they go through .police needs to be screened ,so screen absolutely everybody and make sure that there is no family connection between any of the screeners and the police men going through, or is it not possible for any of the police officers to have there family kidnapped as stated above?
It looks to me that flight crew gets extra attention,lets stop one of the pilots just because i can,the example of a torch carried by one of the pilots being a "problem" just shows that some are getting a little bit to excited with there job.
SCREEN everybody NO exceptions.
It looks to me that flight crew gets extra attention,lets stop one of the pilots just because i can,the example of a torch carried by one of the pilots being a "problem" just shows that some are getting a little bit to excited with there job.
SCREEN everybody NO exceptions.
Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
I suspect it is all about visibility.
The real checks, that are most likely to make a difference, are intelligence related - it is the non-obtrusive (but actually far more inquisitive) stuff like sniffers in the baggage handling, random phone and Email intercepts, background checks, and so-on.
I've occasionally forgotten about a swiss army knife and had it taken away (to be returned at the other end, phew) when travelling as a pax, and once had to argue the point with an overzealous security official when flying P2 - but my hobby is teaching martial arts! I don't need a 3½" bit of steel to kill somebody - as well as all of the arguments given above.
For that matter anybody can do far more damage with a smashed bottle than a small knife, but nobody is stopping pax taking bottles of duty free on board.
I believe that most airline security is pretty damned good - but, it is important to the powers that be that they give every appearance of being OTT. It's just a bloody nuisance. Maybe LHR could employ some out of work actors, dress a few in airline uniforms, and they can regularly get subjected to very public scrutiny to give this appearance, and save the rest of us.
G
The real checks, that are most likely to make a difference, are intelligence related - it is the non-obtrusive (but actually far more inquisitive) stuff like sniffers in the baggage handling, random phone and Email intercepts, background checks, and so-on.
I've occasionally forgotten about a swiss army knife and had it taken away (to be returned at the other end, phew) when travelling as a pax, and once had to argue the point with an overzealous security official when flying P2 - but my hobby is teaching martial arts! I don't need a 3½" bit of steel to kill somebody - as well as all of the arguments given above.
For that matter anybody can do far more damage with a smashed bottle than a small knife, but nobody is stopping pax taking bottles of duty free on board.
I believe that most airline security is pretty damned good - but, it is important to the powers that be that they give every appearance of being OTT. It's just a bloody nuisance. Maybe LHR could employ some out of work actors, dress a few in airline uniforms, and they can regularly get subjected to very public scrutiny to give this appearance, and save the rest of us.
G
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Back in the 70s, a China Airlines 742F (owned by the Taiwanese government) was hijacked by the captain to mainland China. He handcuffed the F/O and locked the F/E out of the cockpit. He didn't need any weapons to do it.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
SCREEN everybody NO exceptions
From reading this thread it seems that those that sit up front seem to be the only ones that have a problem with this.
As far as I know the only exemptions (that I have seen) are Customs.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Suppose the only point of searching aircrew was to make passengers object less when they are searched ("see, even the captain has to go through this").
Or suppose the whole security thing was an elaborate farce to create the illusion of safety so that people would keep buying tickets in enough quantities to keep airlines in business and, indirectly, aircrew in jobs.
Wouldn't those be good enough reasons?
[back to lurking]
Or suppose the whole security thing was an elaborate farce to create the illusion of safety so that people would keep buying tickets in enough quantities to keep airlines in business and, indirectly, aircrew in jobs.
Wouldn't those be good enough reasons?
[back to lurking]
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Originally Posted by Beausoleil
Suppose the only point of searching aircrew was to make passengers object less when they are searched ("see, even the captain has to go through this").
Or suppose the whole security thing was an elaborate farce to create the illusion of safety so that people would keep buying tickets in enough quantities to keep airlines in business and, indirectly, aircrew in jobs.
Wouldn't those be good enough reasons?
[back to lurking]
Or suppose the whole security thing was an elaborate farce to create the illusion of safety so that people would keep buying tickets in enough quantities to keep airlines in business and, indirectly, aircrew in jobs.
Wouldn't those be good enough reasons?
[back to lurking]
So what are we supposed to do ? Just dismantle all the security gates and systems at airports ? I agree, much of airport security/screening is in practical terms ineffective, but the absence of it would be an invitation. We are where we are today through a series of incremental steps, each of which was thought to be well-intentioned. As the Irishman said when asked the way to Dublin, you don't start from here.
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
I have no objection to being searched and going through the same system as the passengers. However, sometimes the lack of common sense can be amusing.
This morning I departed from Frankfurt and had a small (10mm) ring spanner that I had used to fix my roof rack and had forgotten that it was in my briefcase. After an admonishment by a police officer, the spanner was confiscated. However, the gift shop, which is after the security post sells vanity sets containing scissors of about the same size as my spanner.
Airclues
P.S. Does anyone have a spare 10mm ring spanner?
This morning I departed from Frankfurt and had a small (10mm) ring spanner that I had used to fix my roof rack and had forgotten that it was in my briefcase. After an admonishment by a police officer, the spanner was confiscated. However, the gift shop, which is after the security post sells vanity sets containing scissors of about the same size as my spanner.
Airclues
P.S. Does anyone have a spare 10mm ring spanner?
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Re: Security checks for crews are getting to the riduculous!
Whether the airport security is applied to crew or passengers, it begs the question of how effective such security is. It is my opinion that there is no such thing as airport security and it can never be achieved. The bad guys are always going to be able to see the holes and opportunities; we will always be one step or more behind. Airport security did not fail on 9/11, remember, and all the steps taken since would not have prevented the attacks on that date. Concentrating on the stupid, which is what is being done now, prevents a more watchful, aware stance being taken, and provides opportunities for the terrorist. We are less safe now than pre 9/11. Do I need to repeat that? We are LESS SAFE now.
Of course some places get it right, but in general in the politically correct Western nations, the appearance trumps effectiveness. Take a step back some time and just watch the security in action. Every person there has a job to do and he/she does it to the exclusion of anything going on around him. You could put a Bin Liner lookalike, with machine guns and grenades, in the security line and he would not be noticed until the idiot whose job it is to put the stuff on the belt saw him, or, more likely, until the idiot whose job it is to watch the Xray monitor sees the images of the weapons (or the software picked it up and sounded the alert). Nobody is prepared to see anything other than what they see on a regular basis, and nobody is prepared to react even if they did see anything. Moronic automatons is all they are. Look at the shooting incident in LAX for proof. We hear about bad guys getting onto airplanes, but do we ever hear about them being stopped and apprehended at the security checkpoint?
Proof? Look around to see what response is available in the unlikely event that airport security flushes a terrorist in the security conga line (never has happened and will never happen either). There is usually only one policeman with a 9mm, and even if there was a SWAT team, how could they take down a couple of armed terrorists, prepared to die for their cause, amongst the hundreds of screaming, panicked passengers? In other words the authorities know that what they are doing is bs; why are so many otherwise intelligent people taken in by it?
In order to make us safer in the air, we need to put our attention toward airplane security, and let airport security revert to the previous level. All the security at the airport will not help one bit when confronted with the airborne hijacker or terrorist.
On larger airplanes, closing the flight deck door and not opening it under any threat conditions is all that is required. In the event of an attack in the cabin, cut off communications with them (so you cannot be pressured by threats) and land immediately. Do not allow any chance of a takeover of the airplane. On smaller airplanes without a door or cabin crew, learn how to immobilise people walking around or carry a weapon for protection. But forget airport security; they will not help you in any way, and obviously cannot do so once you are in the air in any case.
Anybody with a brain bigger than that of a garden snail knows it is all about Power and nothing to do with security.
Of course some places get it right, but in general in the politically correct Western nations, the appearance trumps effectiveness. Take a step back some time and just watch the security in action. Every person there has a job to do and he/she does it to the exclusion of anything going on around him. You could put a Bin Liner lookalike, with machine guns and grenades, in the security line and he would not be noticed until the idiot whose job it is to put the stuff on the belt saw him, or, more likely, until the idiot whose job it is to watch the Xray monitor sees the images of the weapons (or the software picked it up and sounded the alert). Nobody is prepared to see anything other than what they see on a regular basis, and nobody is prepared to react even if they did see anything. Moronic automatons is all they are. Look at the shooting incident in LAX for proof. We hear about bad guys getting onto airplanes, but do we ever hear about them being stopped and apprehended at the security checkpoint?
Proof? Look around to see what response is available in the unlikely event that airport security flushes a terrorist in the security conga line (never has happened and will never happen either). There is usually only one policeman with a 9mm, and even if there was a SWAT team, how could they take down a couple of armed terrorists, prepared to die for their cause, amongst the hundreds of screaming, panicked passengers? In other words the authorities know that what they are doing is bs; why are so many otherwise intelligent people taken in by it?
In order to make us safer in the air, we need to put our attention toward airplane security, and let airport security revert to the previous level. All the security at the airport will not help one bit when confronted with the airborne hijacker or terrorist.
On larger airplanes, closing the flight deck door and not opening it under any threat conditions is all that is required. In the event of an attack in the cabin, cut off communications with them (so you cannot be pressured by threats) and land immediately. Do not allow any chance of a takeover of the airplane. On smaller airplanes without a door or cabin crew, learn how to immobilise people walking around or carry a weapon for protection. But forget airport security; they will not help you in any way, and obviously cannot do so once you are in the air in any case.
Anybody with a brain bigger than that of a garden snail knows it is all about Power and nothing to do with security.