Detaining pax on board - Legalities?
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Re: Detaining pax on board - Legalities?
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Personally I find that although a business, it is sometimes unclear whether commercial air travel is a customer service or not. Some posters here seemingly from the sharp end give the impression (unwittingly I suspect) that it is not, and as such the paying customers should just shut up and do what they are told.
The ultimate problem with this thread, and the "rights" to get off, is that enabling that 1 (or few) passengers(s) to get off will massively "inconvenience" 100s of others. Not only those others on this flight, but others relying on this service's aircraft and/or crew over the next few hours. It might not sound like it, but at heart most Flight Crew, certainly BA, want to provide the best service for the majority of passengers, once safety concerns are addressed. The obstructions / frustrations you (as passengers) feel are felt by us as much, if not more, since we are exposed to them more often. I'm not asking for sympathy, just understanding, and try to reciprocate that
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"Delayed passengers sue pilot"
Just found this one on Yahoo news, not sure if they'll have much success, not too nice for the Captain though...
Delayed passengers sue pilot Thursday January 5, 07:00 AM
Six German airline passengers who said they were being held against their will on an aircraft stuck on the runway for hours during a snowstorm have filed "false imprisonment" charges.
The passengers filed charges against the pilot of a British Airways Berlin-London flight that sat on the runway for seven hours before it could take off, a federal police spokesman said.
The Berlin police spokesman said it was an unusual incident. "The plane stood there for a long time. It's difficult to say whether the passengers were allowed off or not. It's something they have to work out with the captain," he added.
Delayed passengers sue pilot Thursday January 5, 07:00 AM
Six German airline passengers who said they were being held against their will on an aircraft stuck on the runway for hours during a snowstorm have filed "false imprisonment" charges.
The passengers filed charges against the pilot of a British Airways Berlin-London flight that sat on the runway for seven hours before it could take off, a federal police spokesman said.
The Berlin police spokesman said it was an unusual incident. "The plane stood there for a long time. It's difficult to say whether the passengers were allowed off or not. It's something they have to work out with the captain," he added.
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Re: "Delayed passengers sue pilot"
It's one of those situations where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. It was tricky the other week. I had many similar situations where you were stuck between offloading passengers or keeping them on board just in case you missed your slot in the queue for de-icing or it stopped snowing, regardless of being on stand or not. If the pax disembark you can bet some will wonder off and will be late returning then you're into offloading bags and oops we're at the back of the queue again!! I'm sure the Capt would have consulted ops control as to the best game plan for all of the passengers and not the few. Of course the other option would have been to cancel and under EU law it's classed as an unforseen circumstance on the day so no compensation would be due anyway..... take your pick.
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Re: "Delayed passengers sue pilot"
7 hours...... It's possible.
one example that's happened to me...
1/ Aircraft lands at airport in light snow.
2/ Whilst on stand, light snow has turned to heavy snow.
3/ Aircraft now requires de-icing - 1 hour delay - snow eases off
4/ 1 hour later a/c gets de-iced but due to traffic build up and departure restrictions because of the weather there's now a queue for takeoff and it starts snowing heavily again - airfield closes whilst aircraft 17th in queue at holding point.
5/ another hour later airfield still closed and aircraft returns to stand for a refuel.
6/ another delay waiting for refueller but snow stops- airfield re-opens
7/ a/c needs another de-ice due to snow collecting on wings and other surfaces at holding point - further delay
8/ still waiting for the refueller and its snowing heavily - airfield closes and airfield also runs out of de-icing fluid!! further hour delay waiting for more fluid to be found and heated...
9/ indefinite delay.......................pax disembark
10/ airfield clears several hours later but can't find some of the passengers because we've let them off!!!!
11/ pax found but crew out of hours including using maximum allowable discretion - flight cancelled
Need I say more.....NO
one example that's happened to me...
1/ Aircraft lands at airport in light snow.
2/ Whilst on stand, light snow has turned to heavy snow.
3/ Aircraft now requires de-icing - 1 hour delay - snow eases off
4/ 1 hour later a/c gets de-iced but due to traffic build up and departure restrictions because of the weather there's now a queue for takeoff and it starts snowing heavily again - airfield closes whilst aircraft 17th in queue at holding point.
5/ another hour later airfield still closed and aircraft returns to stand for a refuel.
6/ another delay waiting for refueller but snow stops- airfield re-opens
7/ a/c needs another de-ice due to snow collecting on wings and other surfaces at holding point - further delay
8/ still waiting for the refueller and its snowing heavily - airfield closes and airfield also runs out of de-icing fluid!! further hour delay waiting for more fluid to be found and heated...
9/ indefinite delay.......................pax disembark
10/ airfield clears several hours later but can't find some of the passengers because we've let them off!!!!
11/ pax found but crew out of hours including using maximum allowable discretion - flight cancelled
Need I say more.....NO
Last edited by Dash-7 lover; 5th Jan 2006 at 16:39.
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Re: "Delayed passengers sue pilot"
in most situations the airline will indemnify ( I think this means take care of things and protect) the pilot.
in the states we have had people delayed for many hours within 100 yards of the arrival gate.
In my flying I would much rather take the delay at the gate. While many airlines pay their pilots by the minute (engines running sort of thing)...sitting out on the ramp when you don't have to is uncomfortable and not fuel efficent.
jon
in the states we have had people delayed for many hours within 100 yards of the arrival gate.
In my flying I would much rather take the delay at the gate. While many airlines pay their pilots by the minute (engines running sort of thing)...sitting out on the ramp when you don't have to is uncomfortable and not fuel efficent.
jon
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Re: "Delayed passengers sue pilot"
Maybe we the airlines can start to sue the passengers who delay the flight by boarding ten minutes late,we lose the slot and sit there for 90 minutes.Two bags of duty free and they say they could'nt hear the last call!!.
They'd soon hear if you gave them the bill for the on stand delay and all the missed connections
.
WTDWL.
They'd soon hear if you gave them the bill for the on stand delay and all the missed connections
. WTDWL.
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Re: "Delayed passengers sue pilot"
During the last strike in France Ì had a slot of one hour. I boarded the passenger and sent a ready message.
With 15 minutes to start up another slot came of 1h30 min.Despite the small chances company ops`s sent another ready message.
When the passengers requested to de board I did a speech and I said to them with this words:
I can`t retain anybody here,but be advised that if we get cleared to push back and start up I will not wait you, in respect to the passengers which will stay and the others waiting on the next leg.
None of them got off...
And if they did ,I would request their seats and ask the red cap to find their luggage and leave it ready to be off .Another load sheet and I was ready again 5 ,10 minutes.
With 15 minutes to start up another slot came of 1h30 min.Despite the small chances company ops`s sent another ready message.
When the passengers requested to de board I did a speech and I said to them with this words:
I can`t retain anybody here,but be advised that if we get cleared to push back and start up I will not wait you, in respect to the passengers which will stay and the others waiting on the next leg.
None of them got off...
And if they did ,I would request their seats and ask the red cap to find their luggage and leave it ready to be off .Another load sheet and I was ready again 5 ,10 minutes.
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Re: Detaining pax on board - Legalities?
7 hours delay, try 14! 1985 Dan Dare MAN to Corfu. Midnight t/o delayed 1 hr, ‘captain incapacity?’ Finals, next in line, airport closes due to fog, diverted to Brindisi Corfu re-opens when Sun comes up and fog burns off but Greece decides to clear diversion log-jam at their airports first. Our cabin temp rises, soft drinks run-out and pax rebellious rumblings start. Crew run out of hours. Finally, Italians allow pax into terminal, £5 for a cup of coffee and a saucer sized pizza as no-one had lira (thank god for the euro) Finally, crew of 7am Man-Corfu deliver their pax and come to take-over our flight Finally arrive Corfu 14 hours late Add in another day to sleep it off…. Holiday insurance did not payout for delay >12hr as it occurred en route and was due to an Act of God (weather)
My memory is that a few pax resented the extra delay waiting for the relief crew but no-one wanted to be off-loaded, though some discussion on ferry transit times. The Insurance Co may have listed God as the primary culprit, the pax put it down to Greek pride with some left over for the Italians for lack of compassion
My memory is that a few pax resented the extra delay waiting for the relief crew but no-one wanted to be off-loaded, though some discussion on ferry transit times. The Insurance Co may have listed God as the primary culprit, the pax put it down to Greek pride with some left over for the Italians for lack of compassion
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Re: Detaining pax on board - Legalities?
I am a lawyer who, until now, has visited this site out of interest and just to learn.
The efforts being made to determine the legality of the actions described above are impressive (as is the argument!!). Unfortunately you would be unwise to blindly rely on some of the views expressed.
If your actions on the ground are considered by the Courts or other authorities of the country in which your aircraft was located at that time then the actions are likely to be considered against the laws of that country. The legislation and treaties that have been referred to are then only relevant if they apply in that country. You should not assume that that legislation and those treaties will apply (unless it is legislation of the country in which the aircraft is located or you know the country in which the aircraft is located is a party to the treaty and is bound to give effect to the treaty).
You should also be very careful of quotes from legislation or a treaty as determining the matter. There may be other provisions of the legislation or treaty that result in the provisions not being applicable. There may also be other provisions of the same, or other, legislation or treaties that change the result.
Unfortunately reasoning through "common sense" can only reach a common sense answer. Whether the laws of the relevant country operate to produce the same answer needs to be considered on a country by country basis.
It would not be difficult or expnsive for the airlines to obtain regularly confirmed advice from lawyers qualified in each country to which the airline flies as to the legality of the actions in that country. The position could then be made clear in material provided to crew flying to that country.
Good luck!!
The efforts being made to determine the legality of the actions described above are impressive (as is the argument!!). Unfortunately you would be unwise to blindly rely on some of the views expressed.
If your actions on the ground are considered by the Courts or other authorities of the country in which your aircraft was located at that time then the actions are likely to be considered against the laws of that country. The legislation and treaties that have been referred to are then only relevant if they apply in that country. You should not assume that that legislation and those treaties will apply (unless it is legislation of the country in which the aircraft is located or you know the country in which the aircraft is located is a party to the treaty and is bound to give effect to the treaty).
You should also be very careful of quotes from legislation or a treaty as determining the matter. There may be other provisions of the legislation or treaty that result in the provisions not being applicable. There may also be other provisions of the same, or other, legislation or treaties that change the result.
Unfortunately reasoning through "common sense" can only reach a common sense answer. Whether the laws of the relevant country operate to produce the same answer needs to be considered on a country by country basis.
It would not be difficult or expnsive for the airlines to obtain regularly confirmed advice from lawyers qualified in each country to which the airline flies as to the legality of the actions in that country. The position could then be made clear in material provided to crew flying to that country.
Good luck!!
Last edited by Slow Flying Pumpkin; 9th Jan 2006 at 10:04.
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Re: Detaining pax on board - Legalities?
Ah! Written like a true lawyer. In summary, are you saying that due to the multiplicity of legislation it is best to err on the side of 'letting the passengers' disembark, come what may?
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Re: Detaining pax on board - Legalities?
Originally Posted by judge11
Ah! Written like a true lawyer. In summary, are you saying that due to the multiplicity of legislation it is best to err on the side of 'letting the passengers' disembark, come what may?
