Jakey

OK- a little gung ho arrogance being shown here as far as I am concerned.

I have just, within the last few days, walked off a Garuda flight (ticketed through to Jakarta from Lombok- there was a stop at Jogjakarta) because of the standard of flying from the pilot. Firstly there was an aborted landing and secondly a series of tight holding turns at around 3000 ft. THe final landing was almost nose first, and the plane struggled to stop before the end of the runway. All things considered, especially adding in Garuda's lamentable piloting and safety record, and the general upkeep of the airplane, I got off at Jogjakarta and left the plane.

My life, my rights and quite frankly if the pilot wants to gripe he needs to look at his level of performance before he tries to hide behind regulations and red tape.

Hand Solo

Yes I'm sure you'd have preferred the pilot didn't abort his landing and just hit the obstruction on the runway. Perhaps you should stick to the spotters forum.

Jakey

Gung ho arrogance QED. What a tosser.

What makes you think there was something on the runway?

Could it be he ballsed up the approach, bearing in mind the length of Jogjakartas runway?

Hand Solo

Perhaps you'd share your level of flying experience with us, given that you are able to gauge the quality of the approach flown, the altitude and the bank angle during the hold, the approach attitude and the wind component on landing all from the comfort of your seat in the passenger cabin.

Looks like we've got a gung ho SLF!

Jakey

Matey, some freight is worth more than cheap packaging and even an arrogant **** might you could learn something about passengers feelings before sitting in such high and mighty judgement.

Oh for the record 800- odd hours and doing my instrument rating. Feel free to sneer.

Hand Solo

800 hours PPLer without an IRT knows remarkably little about instrument flying. Excuse us if the professionals ignore your back seat driver comments. Now run along back to the Wanabees forum, where you can consider your 'high and mighty judgements' on the Indonesians abilities. This forum is meant for people who know what they're talking about.

Sunfish

This is not to slag off at Garuda, but, Mr. Solo, you obviously have never flown in Indonesia or expereinced anything of Asian "Culture"! I know exactly how Jakey feels and have had similar expereinces flying into Medan and Manado, and in Malaysia many years ago I missed a flight that crashed by a few minutes.

As SLF in such situations, you have no way of knowing if your pilot is an idiot who just happens to be a priviledged General's son, or a competent professional. There is plenty of evidence in other pprune threads that such incompetents exist in Asia and elsewhere.

Furthermore I believe that, despite your sneering references to "slf", a reasonably experienced traveller can tell the difference between normal and "abnormal" operations under VFR situations anyway.

Jakey

Judge Garuda's record for yourself. It's lamentable.

And, for the record, you should realise that if I, as a customer, judge a 'professionals' abilities not to be up to scratch then you should actually take congnicence, as it might just be that I have a point, especially as the landing was virtually nosewheel first (would you applude that? Nice party piece?). However, I am sure that your confidence will hold you in great stead. Until that confidence possibly leads to a feeling of over-confidence.

In the meantime, the best advice I can give you is if I pay you (collectively) to take responsibility with my life then try to be professional enough and humble enough to listen to my views and concerns.

I'd like also like to applude your choice of name- Hand Solo is remarkably apt.

Jakey

Speak for yourself; they haven't got over us beating them in the Ashes yet.

Techman

There are many ways to voice one's concerns. It would seem Jakey has still to learn how it's done if it is to be taken seriously!

Hand Solo

Or it might just be that you don't have a point, especially if the landing was 'virtually nosewheel first', meaning that it wasn't actually nosewheel first and hence no different to any number of duff landings I've sat through on ERJ and CRJs in Europe. Didn't feel the need to come on here though and bleat about how awful I thought the pilots were.

PS Best not fly Monarch for a while, I'm sure they put one nosewheel first into Gibraltar not so long ago.

Jakey

So how would you like me to phrase it?

The points that have been made on here are regarding the legalities of preventing PAX from leaving a flight on diversion or in a similar incident.

The majority of arguements purported have been those of contracts and vested interest; very few have bothered to consider the view of the passenger, who, after all is actually the one paying the wages and charges.

In my instance, I considered the situation unsafe. My choice, my decision. And, if that is my decision, twisting contractual wording as has been suggested elsewhere on this thread to prevent a passenger from excercising his choices is pretty low.

Jakey

You're taking very personally. Were you the pilot concerned or do you just jump to the pilot's defence by attacking the man, not the ball, without listening to concerns, because they are your 'colleague'?

The point is I considered the situation cocnerning enough not to wish to carry on. And that in itself should worry you and make you perhaps re-visit some of the views put elsewhere in this thread.

Oh and Monarch- no thanks. Malaysian First last night was just dandy, especially the Billecart-Salmon.

Hand Solo

I'm not taking anything personally, merely pointing out that as a passenger you are generally not sufficiently informed or qualified to make objective complaints about anybodys flying. We get used to hearing passenger comments like "that was a great/terrible landing", "what an awful approach", "that must have been unsafe" when we can see that they are patently talking rubbish and are basing their assessment on how smooth the touchdown was or how windy it was over the hangars at LHR or whether ATC left us high. I have also had numerous incidences of passengers wishing to get off aircraft with a technical delay because they deemed the aircraft to be "unsafe".

PS Whilst your enjoying your flight on Malaysian First try not to muse over their previous unfortunate habit of arriving at LHR without even enough fuel to fly a standard missed approach.

Jakey

So, the thrust of your argument is that because I believe a situation to be unsafe, that because your are more qualified to make the judgement (which I accede) then you are right?

Hmmm. A very interesting point of view. Is your name Captain Key? I believe he was similarly robust in his viewpoints.

Regarding smoothness of a landing, I am sufficiently versed to know that a 73 needs to be flown onto the runway and I thought the general idea was to increase the pitch on landing, not reduce it.

Jakey

Oh and re Malaysia, sadly after reading some of the issues and happenings on here I'm not surprised. In fact some of the things on here are pretty concerning, and being very honest for one minute, has changed my perceptions of a number of airlines and their practices. Highly informative, possibly too much so, I have to say.

Going back to MAS, perhaps you might educate me... how many times did this happen and why? And when did the practice stop?

bjcc

Bealzebub

You have research wht you wrote very well, obviously. The genral rule we police at Heathrow used when i was there was doors open, not in flight, doors closed, in flight.

The point where I disagree with you is the 'Lawful instructions of the captain'.

and your definition of good order etc.

Is it a lawful instruction for the captain to decide that pax should not diembark. Whats that assumption based on? If it is pure economics then it is a lawful instruction? That would have nothing to do with the good order you mention on a flight. (assuming that an instruction not to disembark could ever be lawful, which I doubt)

GGV

Well said bjcc.

Sven Sixtoo

Yes I think bjcc has the rights of the case.

But it will take someone to sue to make the legal point.

Sven

Nov71

Trip, IMO 'Yes' Any citizen has the right to detain another if he believes a crime has been/is being committed, until the Police arrive. You can detain him in a room with door closed - but not locked (unlawful imprisonment) provided you contact the Police immediately with details.

Aircraft etc may have diplomatic questions but IMO a UK reg aircraft is UK territory subject to UK Law, certainly in the UK. Unless the lawyers know diff!