Southwest B737 Overrun @ Chcago MDW
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Avon, CT, USA
Age: 68
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Next Time MDW has a snowstorm
They will close the airport. Just like KDCA did about two weeks after thr Air Florida accident. We had to take the HS-125-700 over to Dulles to pick up the big boys. Of course after a month or so everything was back to normal.
This is not the first time a Southwest 737 has overrun a 6000ft rumway...
Excessive airspeed and flight path angle caused Southwest Airlines B-737 runway overrun in Burbank, California, NTSB says
Excessive airspeed and flight path angle caused Southwest Airlines B-737 runway overrun in Burbank, California, NTSB says
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
XTRAHOLD, couldn't agree more,been there ,done that;B/A reported good, in actuality nil, wind reported calm FMC shows 10kts tail ,because landing R/W is ATC or noise-abatement preferred. amos 2, I have reported your outrageous post & hope the mods will have the good sense to do for you what you are obviously incapable of achieving on your own,ie demonstrating a modicum of respect for another crew who may for all you know be completely blameless.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just.n.av8r
That's just the point though, isn't it? Something of a generalisation, but winglets help to reduce induced drag (by partially unwinding the tip vortices). Induced drag increases with angle of attack so would be [relatively] high during the float after flare - winglets will reduce the drag, so all factors being equal the float will be longer. Hope that made sense!
oc
Not sure why pilots claim more float with winglets. Winglets actually reduce apparent ground effect because they already elimnate some of the spanwise flow creating the vortices.
oc
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: pacific islands
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope for the pilots sake that when the boxes are opened, 1)they flew the numbers, 2) touched down on the 1000ft mark and 3) did all the things that Boeing recommends be done for a contaminated runway landing otherwise i fear they will be handing in their licenses.
This is strike two for the company under preetty much the same circumstances within a couple of years. A trend maybe?
RIP to the litte one.
coco
This is strike two for the company under preetty much the same circumstances within a couple of years. A trend maybe?
RIP to the litte one.
coco
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the greatest of respect,that is bollocks! Do you seriously think the greedy sh*ts in charge at any of the legacy carriers are any more caring,when it comes to the effect on their crew & customers,of cost cutting, than the US or European lo-co's? I really don't think so.This accident has little to do with lo-co, but perhaps a lot to do with the culture of corporate greed that pervades every aspect of our life on this wonderful planet of ours.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When an airline has 3 accidents with 1 casualty in 35 years of service - and even if all 3 are in the last 5 years - then it takes much (self) confidence to be sure it's because of lo-co airline and low-cost culture. Pure coincidence maybe?
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: usa/asia
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is the problem with PPRUNE forums, it went from being a great cyberspace for intelligent discussions and exchange of ideas amongst professional pilots to a public bulletin board for people like amos2, stagger, agent mulder and the odd reporter snooping for a story. You people have no idea what you are talking about and show no respect to the fliers nor uderstanding for the multitude of factors that cause an accident like this. [B]
There's absolute rubbish being said in some of the above postings. I have the utmost respect for, and confidence in, Southwest and will not hesitate to continue flying with them.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NG B737
I fly the NG 737 and it is a bit slicker than aircraft without winglets. It's important to maintain prescribed approach speed and to establish the proper landing attitude. An over flare will cause float particularly if you are carrying excess speed. This seems to be more prevalent in aircraft with winglets but probably is due more to the efficiency of the wing itself which was completely redesigned for th 700/800 aircraft.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: under a bridge
Posts: 3,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old Coder,
Ground effect is an increase in effetcive lift due to the negation of wingtip vortices by the ground. It reduces drag and requires less thrust for the same airspeed/glidepath. When you have winglets this effect is less noticeable since your parasite drag is already reduced at the wingtips.
If you don't get it google it, I'm sure there are some rocket scientists that can due a better job than me explaining it. I just fly em.
Ground effect is an increase in effetcive lift due to the negation of wingtip vortices by the ground. It reduces drag and requires less thrust for the same airspeed/glidepath. When you have winglets this effect is less noticeable since your parasite drag is already reduced at the wingtips.
If you don't get it google it, I'm sure there are some rocket scientists that can due a better job than me explaining it. I just fly em.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sometimes I wonder if everyone's account on PPRuNe shouldn't be cancelled,and proof of some professional involvement in the aviation industry become a pre-requisite to participation;I'm not saying I or any of us "professionals" are incapable of speaking absolute tosh,but it would hopefully reduce the number of moronic or politically motivated comments this & similar threads attract.In particular,any problem,or rumour/hint of a problem with a lo-co seems to invariably attract copious quantities of hysterical baying for blood from the usual sources,whilst conveniently ignoring the sheer number of sectors safely flown each & every day.I am glad I am not alone in getting a teensy-weensy bit fed up of it." PROFESSIONAL" (attitude as well as status) PILOTS rumours & news is fine by me,the rest sucks.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some Considerations
Before we judge these guys shouldn't we at least wait for the facts to come out. This is a real tradgedy. A little boy was killed and several people were seriously injured. I would think all of us in the aviation industry owe these folks, their families, and the aircrew a thorough and fair investigation. Speculation, rumor and innuendo only serve to confuse the issue. There are many questions which are currently unanswered, but which will most certainly be answered by the NTSB in the coming days and weeks. Until then, I would submit that asking questions is fair game. Making conclusions, on the other hand may just demonstrate your own ignorance.
Have toolbox, will travel
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: KMCO
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No link but this is what's being reported in the news.
NTSB spokeswoman at the afternoon press conference said the touchdown airspeed was 124 kts. The wind 090/10.
98 Pax and no info on cargo and bags.
And for those of you who say the cowboy culture is alive and well couldn't be further from the truth.
I know that Flight Ops and Management went through a top to bottom review of the operation and unstabilized approaches were the focal point.
DFDAU Cards have been pulled for a long time now for reading and the results are investigated for ways to make the operation more effeicent and find irregularties in aircraft operations.
Sure these guys ask for shortcuts enroute/taxi kinda fast while trying to expedite the process of moving people. But at the same time, these guys aren't PAID by the BLOCK HOUR and the inefficiency this can create.
Pay is calculated by the trip. Its a formula that they came up with years ago using a set rule for a set city pair or something to that effect.
This encourages them to be efficient. But knowing they are watched via various modes (real-time engine trend ACARS reports and DFDAU readouts) will keep the cowboy culture in check. No one wants to be terminated from one of the last best commercial aviation gigs around
Have you looked at how much these guys are paid vs. counterparts at other carriers operating similar equiptment?
Also worth noting, this was the first flight of the day for the front end crew. So they should have been well rested and alert.
NTSB spokeswoman at the afternoon press conference said the touchdown airspeed was 124 kts. The wind 090/10.
98 Pax and no info on cargo and bags.
And for those of you who say the cowboy culture is alive and well couldn't be further from the truth.
I know that Flight Ops and Management went through a top to bottom review of the operation and unstabilized approaches were the focal point.
DFDAU Cards have been pulled for a long time now for reading and the results are investigated for ways to make the operation more effeicent and find irregularties in aircraft operations.
Sure these guys ask for shortcuts enroute/taxi kinda fast while trying to expedite the process of moving people. But at the same time, these guys aren't PAID by the BLOCK HOUR and the inefficiency this can create.
Pay is calculated by the trip. Its a formula that they came up with years ago using a set rule for a set city pair or something to that effect.
This encourages them to be efficient. But knowing they are watched via various modes (real-time engine trend ACARS reports and DFDAU readouts) will keep the cowboy culture in check. No one wants to be terminated from one of the last best commercial aviation gigs around
Have you looked at how much these guys are paid vs. counterparts at other carriers operating similar equiptment?
Also worth noting, this was the first flight of the day for the front end crew. So they should have been well rested and alert.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the New York Times
The plane ... landed with a 13-mile-an-hour tail wind, making its speed over the ground - 124 knots, or 142 m.p.h. - slightly faster than normal, Ellen Engleman Conners, a member of the National Transportation Safety Board, said...... It hit the fence at 40 knots, or 46 m.p.h., and then hit two cars.
Despite the fact that heavy snow was falling at the time, braking was fair on most of the 6,522-foot runway but poor near the end, Ms. Engleman Conners said. "We cannot tell you the specific touchdown point."
The official briefed on the accident, who would not comment publicly because only top safety board officials are allowed to speak for attribution, said, "The first section of the runway had the best braking, and the last section had the worst."
A spokeswoman for the Chicago Aviation Department, Wendy Abrams, said a friction tester was sent down the runway about 20 minutes before the plane, Southwest Flight 1248, landed, and again right after it touched down. Each time, she said, "Braking action on that runway was good."
Despite the fact that heavy snow was falling at the time, braking was fair on most of the 6,522-foot runway but poor near the end, Ms. Engleman Conners said. "We cannot tell you the specific touchdown point."
The official briefed on the accident, who would not comment publicly because only top safety board officials are allowed to speak for attribution, said, "The first section of the runway had the best braking, and the last section had the worst."
A spokeswoman for the Chicago Aviation Department, Wendy Abrams, said a friction tester was sent down the runway about 20 minutes before the plane, Southwest Flight 1248, landed, and again right after it touched down. Each time, she said, "Braking action on that runway was good."
Join Date: May 2003
Location: I'm the asshole next door
Age: 61
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
132 knots touchdown speed according to the Chicago Tribune:
Runway conditions at the time a Southwest Airlines jetliner touched down during a snowstorm Thursday night at Midway Airport were "fair" for most of the strip but "poor" toward the end, federal investigators disclosed this afternoon.
Now they are trying to determine why Flight 1248 from Baltimore-Washington International Airport ran off the end of the runway, crashed through a concrete barrier and fence and smashed into vehicles on Central Avenue.
A 6-year-old boy riding in one car was killed. At least 10 other people—eight on the ground and two on the plane—were injured. Midway was shut down immediately after the accident, stranding some 600 travelers overnight. The airport reopened at 6 a.m. today.
Investigators hope to complete their site review and move the airliner from the street to an airport hangar Saturday, said Ellen Engleman Conners, a board member of the National Transportation Safety Board who is leading the inquiry.
Speaking at a late afternoon news conference, she detailed the sequence of events leading to the crash.
"The airplane had been in a normal hold position. The approach was normal with normal conversations. The crew did not mention problems with the airplane," she said.
"Air traffic control reported runway braking to be fair on most of the runway and poor at the end. Touchdown was normal. There was a slight bounce. There was a 7- to 8-knot tailwind. There was 32 seconds from touchdown until the aircraft hit the fence."
"Excellent" and "pristine" data has been recovered from the Boeing 737-700's flight data and cockpit voice recorders, Engleman Conners said.
Among other things, data showed the plane was going 132 knots, or 152 m.p.h., when it touched down at 7:14 p.m. Thursday on Midway's Runway 31 Center. It was traveling about 40 knots, or 46 m.p.h., when it went through the fence on the northwest corner of the airport.
http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/chi-...-top-headlines
Runway conditions at the time a Southwest Airlines jetliner touched down during a snowstorm Thursday night at Midway Airport were "fair" for most of the strip but "poor" toward the end, federal investigators disclosed this afternoon.
Now they are trying to determine why Flight 1248 from Baltimore-Washington International Airport ran off the end of the runway, crashed through a concrete barrier and fence and smashed into vehicles on Central Avenue.
A 6-year-old boy riding in one car was killed. At least 10 other people—eight on the ground and two on the plane—were injured. Midway was shut down immediately after the accident, stranding some 600 travelers overnight. The airport reopened at 6 a.m. today.
Investigators hope to complete their site review and move the airliner from the street to an airport hangar Saturday, said Ellen Engleman Conners, a board member of the National Transportation Safety Board who is leading the inquiry.
Speaking at a late afternoon news conference, she detailed the sequence of events leading to the crash.
"The airplane had been in a normal hold position. The approach was normal with normal conversations. The crew did not mention problems with the airplane," she said.
"Air traffic control reported runway braking to be fair on most of the runway and poor at the end. Touchdown was normal. There was a slight bounce. There was a 7- to 8-knot tailwind. There was 32 seconds from touchdown until the aircraft hit the fence."
"Excellent" and "pristine" data has been recovered from the Boeing 737-700's flight data and cockpit voice recorders, Engleman Conners said.
Among other things, data showed the plane was going 132 knots, or 152 m.p.h., when it touched down at 7:14 p.m. Thursday on Midway's Runway 31 Center. It was traveling about 40 knots, or 46 m.p.h., when it went through the fence on the northwest corner of the airport.
http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/chi-...-top-headlines
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just.n.av8r
No rocket scientists seem forthcoming, so I'll have one last go...
Rather an effective increase in L/D ratio and, since the lift is constant (= weight) in the float, this implies a reduction in drag.
Parasite (or profile) drag is actually increased slightly by the winglets -- it is the induced drag that is reduced. Whatever, as someone else said earlier, the wing on the -700 is "new"; the guys at Boeing will have optimised it for presence of winglets. The upshot is that, all other things being equal,the overall reduction in drag will make it float further.
But I don't fly 'em, so what would I know
No rocket scientists seem forthcoming, so I'll have one last go...
Ground effect is an increase in effetcive lift due to the negation of wingtip vortices by the ground.
It reduces drag and requires less thrust for the same airspeed/glidepath. When you have winglets this effect is less noticeable since your parasite drag is already reduced at the wingtips.
But I don't fly 'em, so what would I know
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Guys,
my condolences to the victims!
Just my 3 Thoughts about the situation:
1. After the tragic crash of AA587 in 2001 the NTSB figured out that the Training-Standards and operational Procedures of American did not comply with the Standards/Procedures set by Airbus (Which finally let to the tragic "Pilot-Action" causing the accident).
2. Is is possible that also other Operators' have inefficient procedures or did they learn something out of AA587, meaning did they check operators procedures after they figured out their mistake causing the death of over 270 people?
A "No-Autobrake"-Policy would fit into such a picture.
3. Has anyone also information about the flightcrew?
I remember reading some reports of accidents in which the low level of experience was one(the main?) reason, e.g. the MD11 crashed @EWR in 1997.
Cpt had just 1000Fhrs on the 11, 3XX as PIC, while the F/O hat accumulated just about 100Fhr total on MD11, so I hope the guys in question have been more experienced otherwise they and WN get blamed for their Training
Finally, in german Online-Newspapers an NTSB-Guy is quoted stating that the Touchdown was @about 750ft, so definately out of the Touchdown-Zone.
This combined with poor WX-Conditions would definately cause a RWY-Overrun if I am not totally wrong with my calculations, even in good WX-Condition this would cause a critical Situation (At least with no Autobrake if this is true!)
Has anyone information concerning this?
BRegards Phil
my condolences to the victims!
Just my 3 Thoughts about the situation:
1. After the tragic crash of AA587 in 2001 the NTSB figured out that the Training-Standards and operational Procedures of American did not comply with the Standards/Procedures set by Airbus (Which finally let to the tragic "Pilot-Action" causing the accident).
2. Is is possible that also other Operators' have inefficient procedures or did they learn something out of AA587, meaning did they check operators procedures after they figured out their mistake causing the death of over 270 people?
A "No-Autobrake"-Policy would fit into such a picture.
3. Has anyone also information about the flightcrew?
I remember reading some reports of accidents in which the low level of experience was one(the main?) reason, e.g. the MD11 crashed @EWR in 1997.
Cpt had just 1000Fhrs on the 11, 3XX as PIC, while the F/O hat accumulated just about 100Fhr total on MD11, so I hope the guys in question have been more experienced otherwise they and WN get blamed for their Training
Finally, in german Online-Newspapers an NTSB-Guy is quoted stating that the Touchdown was @about 750ft, so definately out of the Touchdown-Zone.
This combined with poor WX-Conditions would definately cause a RWY-Overrun if I am not totally wrong with my calculations, even in good WX-Condition this would cause a critical Situation (At least with no Autobrake if this is true!)
Has anyone information concerning this?
BRegards Phil